How Does One Defeat Gracie Jujistu ?

[lkfmdc]

Oh, lord. Look, who cares about some tournament crap about elbows. I'm speaking of technique application

You are an F-in moron

Let's summarize

YOU: I do my fantasy theoretical technique on compliant training partners who have no grappling training and who don't resist

as opposed to US: who do it on trained fighters in competition (ie REAL resistance) conditions

You've had plenty of chances to show what I've said is wrong

Yes, I've had plenty of opportunities and I've consistently shown you to be the LARP'ing moron you are

I have no choice but to declare me the winner

translation = I live in fantasy land and want to run in the other direction when confronted with reality

Do us all a HUGE favor, do to your local wrestling club, have them shoot in on you, use your "deadly" counter and TAPE IT...

I need the huge laugh

[unkokusai]

wRONgH, you have demonstrated time and time again that you are nothing but a theory-boy who can't muster the sack to admit that your 'imagination' doesn't stack up against the many, many years of real, practical experience telling you that you are wrong. If this is some ego thing, you are picking the wrong argument and you are making yourself look ridiculous. Now, maybe you are happy looking ridiculous, I don't know. Could be your thing, humiliating yourself as some kind of masochistic thrill for you or something...

[RonH]

I allways thought the elbow idea didn't make sense. You are trying to stop a powerful incoming, charging force by dropping an elbow? by the time you are close enough to do it the attacker will have your center and thus negate your ability to generate any effective power with an elbow strike. You would have to have 8 foot long arms to make it work...so you can hit them, before they take your center.

Let them wrap their arms around you, that's fine. If on questioning muscular power, the power is in the muscles of the upper torso, the arm, the shoulder. You can throw in legs and hips, too. If on the question of hip power alone, you can rotate the hip without moving from your position, except for maybe turning your body sideways some. You don't need running starts or spinning all the way around to put a good amount of force behind elbow strikes.

Take sword fighting. It isn't necessary to spin all the way around to get a lot of force behind the sword. I'd advise against it, unless you find yourself sword fighting a group that's circled you. You've got no choice then.

Like it or not, this does show that you don't train 'alive'. Alot of techniques work in theory and just do not work in practice.

On the contrary. I do train that way. And many moves do show capability, if it is used by someone that has trained to use it. If you refer to things that often imped fighting technique use in a typical tournament/street fight, which makes the whole scene look like one big roll around in the dirt in the end, what makes the impossible work is self-control, focus and the ability to think on your feet and several steps forward in time.

[Shaolinlueb]

grab their balls and start rubbing them asking if they like it. most GJJ practioners are ****phobes so that will get them off of you.

or poke them in the eye. they on top mount go for their groin. e.i. fight like a dirtbag. they stick to their rules. lol

[unkokusai]

Are you and RonH related or something? (say, maybe brother/father?)

[SenseiShellie]

grab their balls and start rubbing them asking if they like it. most GJJ practioners are ****phobes so that will get them off of you.

or poke them in the eye. they on top mount go for their groin. e.i. fight like a dirtbag. they stick to their rules. lol

what if you're a girl though? i don't think that's the right approach...

In all honesty, if you want to learn to counter Gracie JJ, then study it. They really do know all their own counters, and will teach you them. I study it and honestly, I'm learning a lot.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Let them wrap their arms around you, that's fine. If on questioning muscular power, the power is in the muscles of the upper torso, the arm, the shoulder. You can throw in legs and hips, too. If on the question of hip power alone, you can rotate the hip without moving from your position, except for maybe turning your body sideways some. You don't need running starts or spinning all the way around to put a good amount of force behind elbow strikes.

Reply]
No, the power is in being able to suddenly sink your weight into the downward elbow strike. In order to do this, you must be aligned properly and rooted enough to drop down on a single point with the whole body. This is something that will be IMPOSSIBLE if you are in the process of being knocked back and off balance.

There is no way you are going to be able to generate enough power to do anything but irritate those guys. Maybe if you have someone with minimal conditioning, and a really low pain threshold, but an MMA guy is going to do nothing more than maybe take not of a momentary amount of inconsequential discomfort as they blast in full force and take you to your zero point.

Also, remember these guys are really good at the set up, and timing. they WON'T Shoot untill they KNOW they have you and there is little you cna do to stop it.

Some sort of sneeze like reaction such as a sprawl, or dropping into a bow stance while leaning over them as they come in is going to neutralize the shoot....and even then, you are going to have to grapple them for a little while to escape and start the fight over again form zero.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

what if you're a girl though? i don't think that's the right approach...

Reply]
Well, you have a number of positions to consider, like Missionary, side spoon or even doggie....

[SenseiShellie]

what if you're a girl though? i don't think that's the right approach...

Reply]
Well, you have a number of positions to consider, like Missionary, side spoon or even doggie....

LOL...nice one!

[RonH]

Reply]
No, the power is in being able to suddenly sink your weight into the downward elbow strike. In order to do this, you must be aligned properly and rooted enough to drop down on a single point with the whole body. This is something that will be IMPOSSIBLE if you are in the process of being knocked back and off balance.

This is why, even though they wrap themselves around you, you still absorb the force of their energy into your body and direct it down. You still maintain your balance, as you're directing their energy downward.

There is no way you are going to be able to generate enough power to do anything but irritate those guys.

The act itself requires little effort from the one being attacked. It isn't necessary to brute force your way to get them to go down.

Maybe if you have someone with minimal conditioning, and a really low pain threshold, but an MMA guy is going to do nothing more than maybe take not of a momentary amount of inconsequential discomfort as they blast in full force and take you to your zero point.

This is why you don't stop with the downward elbow. You follow up with temple strikes, hammer fists or whatever else you're capable of doing in that position to maintain dominance.

Also, remember these guys are really good at the set up, and timing. they WON'T Shoot untill they KNOW they have you and there is little you cna do to stop it.

Faking weakness/acting is always good in studying martial arts.

[unkokusai]

you still absorb the force of their energy into your body and direct it down.

LOL! Ok hopgrasser, why don't you go find a good wrestler (NOT Neal and Bob from the dojo) and ask him to go takedowns with you? You can try your absorbing and directing and let us know how it went.

[Nick Forrer]

This is why, even though they wrap themselves around you, you still absorb the force of their energy into your body and direct it down. You still maintain your balance, as you're directing their energy downward.



The act itself requires little effort from the one being attacked. It isn't necessary to brute force your way to get them to go down.



This is why you don't stop with the downward elbow. You follow up with temple strikes, hammer fists or whatever else you're capable of doing in that position to maintain dominance.



Faking weakness/acting is always good in studying martial arts.

A trolling masterclass - hes even trolling the trolls. Bravo sir, bravo.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

This is why, even though they wrap themselves around you, you still absorb the force of their energy into your body and direct it down. You still maintain your balance, as you're directing their energy downward.

Reply]
If they got your hands around you already, it is too late. If you are sinking into a deep bowstance, you have a chance as it gives a similar energy to a sprawl, and allows you to lean your weight down on top of them but you are still not in a position to drop an effective elbow.

A deep mountian climbing stance might be better if you can turn them off line, but still your objective is to redirect thier force, and that requires you to put your hands on them. Trying to strike in the heat of that moment will just open you up to be taken down as they adjust to your counter.

Remember, these guys are not frik'n Rhino's, they can adjust and redirect too. They develop a body sensitivity similar to Taiji Quan guys, and are really adept at taking YOU off your center as well.

[cjurakpt]

really folks - it's a loosing battle - you can't argue with someone who sees the world the way this guy does; here are some examples of his tenuous grasp of reality in other areas (bold mine):

first off, he fancies himself some sort of "energy healer" who can clear up a lifetime of dysfunction with a few waves of his "qi"

I brought down an emotional barrier composed of 'anxiety energy', which was screwing up the mind of one woman, after having experienced it for most of her life (she was in her early 60s when I brought down the barrier). No physical contact between the two of us. I had made several attempts before to help her, but nothing I was doing could crack that armor. It extended out a good meter at least from any point on or in her body. Then, I was shown something by a friend and I used it to help bring it down. She was still a semi-mean person at times. The anxiety barrier just worsened her symptoms. She's living a much a happier life now.

in fact, he's so good that he can do it without them even knowing about it:

I have also helped people to get their emotions under control...also without phsycal contact or even with their knowledge, just as I had done with the woman I mentioned above with the barrier around her. A little background, private assistance to help them through some rough spots.

but what about more mundane things, say, I don't know, a dislocated finger:

dislocated two fingers last night. Reset,massaged,plastered and splinted, but the tendons on the underside of fingers-that keep them from hyperextending and dislocating are "stretched."
anyone have any good formulas for returning them to normal-tightening, strengthening? I have a tiet sao jow that strengthens bone and tendon, but wondering if anyone has had experience with this.

I'd also suggest keeping the fingers curled up for extended periods of time, but not loosely. There needs to be tension in the muscles. When doing weight training improperly (not stretching, amongst other things) the tendons will tighen up and you'll get the 'can't wipe my own butt' syndrome. It's the same with the fingers. Keep them curled for long lengths of time and they'll tighten up.

yeah, that's a great idea...anyway, not surprisingly, when asked about his training and credentials, the definitive answer he (finally) gave was:

If you desire the specifics, I've had some medical training, but I'm not a doctor, nor am I a med student.

of course, that's ok because:

whether I was a licensed medical doctor is irrelevent when it comes to chi healing. One is not required for the other.

and

Credentials is not the issue. Experience, facts, and logic are.

indeed - when will those show up, I wonder?, well it explains comments like:

I've never come across a time when I thought 'this is too much for my abilities'. You can't go into any situation thinking that.

certainly a very responsible perspective; speaking of responsibility, when quered as to what recourse a patient has if they go to an unlicensed energy healer and experience a negative effect, he offers the following:

There are other extralegal means. They've already gone outside the legal system to have things done to themselves that are not approved by groups, like the FDA or the AMA. There are those energy users that are mercenary types. There's the actual legit websites online that deal with revenge and righting wrongs and stuff. There is ceremonial magick, but it's best if they already have had experience with it. Candle magick is good for beginners. Chaos/sigil magick is, too, but these 3 shouldn't be used lightly. We're moving into areas in this thread that deal with things that can't really be classified in a legal system, especially when the ideas are taken to its ultimate expression. The example of the judge, accuser and accused would be one such example.

regardless though, it doesn't stop him from doing his thing again and again:

For instance, I had a temp job once installing awning, drapes and mini-blinds. There were rotating teams for the company and one day, I was working with this one guy who was militant when it came to his health, but he had taken it to the extreme in a subconscious desire to get praise and recognition from his father, who was also one of the 2 owners of the company. His father was also a very disciplined guy, so the son took it to the extreme to get his praise, but it wasn't doing anything to get the praise he wanted. However, one day, I gave him energy to help him out during one particularly hot day, but the energy had the secondary effect of letting him release some of the emotional energy he had pent up inside him. I wasn't around when he blew up, but I heard second hand that his yelling was intense and several of us, including the father of the guy who released his pent up emotions, the other owner and the supervisor of the team I was on at the time, were privately discussing what should be done to help him. And we all came to an agreement that he had personal life issues, that his ultra-regimented lifestyle was unhealthy. I had spoken with the supervisor of the team I was on privately and I poked around for more information, trying to get a quick psychological assessment of the family/work situation both the father and the son had and everything kept leading back to the father-son relationship, which the supervisor agreed probably was the reason. He had known the 2 of them for about 20 years, but he hadn't thought of the cause being the father-son relationship. The supervisor thought it might have been related to the son's relationships with girls, but when I suggested the father-son link and listed reason after reason why I thought that was why, he started seeing how the experiences the son was having with dating were really a symptom of his problems he was having with seeking his father's approval.
Now, the temp assignment was only for about 4 weeks and pretty much everything I learned about his personal life, outside of a few small details, I heard in that one afternoon. I haven't kept in touch with them, but the last I heard was that the son was feeling better after blowing up that one day and releasing many pent up feelings and he hasn't gone back to the same degree of militant disciplin he had before. The guy before he met me was a robot with over 95% of his life. He'd even beat himself up over not keeping his schedule from getting messed up.

pretty astounding! in fact, it even works over the internet:

There have even been times when someone online has specifically said that they were feeling better, having read a post I had made in regards to a TV show. They felt healthier, they said they were sitting up straighter and I hadn't even intended that they get better. They hadn't entered the conversation at that point.

and it doesn't stop there; in response to my question regarding how many people he has "healed" with his methods, he responds:

Face-to-face, several thousands. At a distance, a little less, but that is also when I haven't used 'roaming healings', where the energy moves from person to person, to area to area and continues to do so and work on others without any conscious or subconscious input from me. All summed up, we're talking millions, if not billions. This is what comes from a more extensive understanding of what is involved in energy healing/manipulation.

said "understanding" I am obviously lacking given my apostasy regarding the whole issue, which culminated in his opinion:

And this is why you will always never understand energy healing. You keep thinking of it as a figurative thing and always dismissing the literal, outside of anything related to the material body...Proper energy healing requires the belief that it is literal and tangible for the best results overall. An apparent material reductionist might work in certain instances, but it is still not a proper understanding...The fact you've taken the position more aimed to material reductionism, the fact you say chi is a metaphor and not a literal thing, contradictory to its nature, the fact you aren't making a distinction between energy manipulation and energy healing, your stance that energy healing works the same way as modern medical healing, etc. etc.

yes, etc. etc. indeed...
of course, you can read the actual thread in its agonizing entirety here:
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ad.php?t=47322

so anyway guys, if history is any guide, he's not going to give an inch on this point - you can demonstrate your opinion any which way you like, it won't change a thing (a fact I learned myself the hard way)

I am sure that his next post will be to talk about how I am bringing up stuff that's unrelated, that I am taking his stuff out of context, etc. etc. etc.; that's fine, whatever, just giving a little perspective on the matter is all...

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

This is why you don't stop with the downward elbow. You follow up with temple strikes, hammer fists or whatever else you're capable of doing in that position to maintain dominance.

Reply]
Then why bother doing it? Just drop/ sink your weight, spread your legs back and to the side into either a deep bow or Mountain climbing stance, or just sprawl enough to neutralize it, and get back to your feet.

All this striking stuff will never work, because you have to open up too much at a critical time, when yo need to be maintaining your structure and root. If you are in a position to make a counter like that work, the BJJ guy is going to know that, and he won't shoot in the first place.