Your chi stories...

[cjurakpt]

Yes, one of the things I've done is healing myself and others.

what does that mean? define healed"; and in what capacity did you do it? and to what sort of patients? what exactly do you think that you did to them? how many were acute, how many chronic?

don't get me wrong - I;m not suggesting you didn't do anything, but with things like "qi" healing, subjectivity al la entrainment / placebo effect is what is happening (and I do believe placebo effect is real, in terms of bringing about observable physiological changes, BTW, so I'm not suggesting it's make-believe - but it's not as hard to have happen as you may think)

[Vajramusti]

when you get to empty force or celebrex.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Vajramusti: What do you mean by "Empty force"?

If we were looking for "Qi", a substance we couldn't find it.. but, its effects are observable.. in the classic example, you stand at the edge of a pond and observe two fish.. one is swimming the other is belly-up.. the swimming fish has sufficient "Qi" to demonstrate Life.. belly-up fish, not so much..

The "No Qi" group asks for evidence.. yet, they cannot produce a photon or a light wave, but they are certain of light.. so, when someone asks for evidence of "Qi", i ask them to look in the mirror..

I was considering the notion of Qi as a collective effect, and had some interesting thoughts.. i noticed that my daughter was cooking, actually baking a cake from scratch.. and it dawned on me that the "collective effect" was not much different than a recipe.. that various systems combined to create a new unique "substance".. and, i considered consciousness/mind/intention like the heat/catalyst that transforms the ingredients into something yummy.. Yi leads Qi, implies Qi as a pre-existing condition, but.. it could be perceived as such if the Yi was actually the catalyst that creates the condition, it would appear that Yi leads Qi.. regardless, Qi is an observable and verifiable condition, we simply haven't developed the tools to measure it to the skeptics satisfaction.. but, its effects have been measured.. and those effects are consistent with much of the ancient descriptions..

I have no issue with "Mystical" concepts.. in many cases, it is a reference to phenomena that has escaped our measurement thus far.. in other cases, it is, as suggested, BS.. and, i am constantly amused by those that invest so much energy and time in BS.. but, there are unexplained phenomena that cannot be denied or measured.. those observable phenomena are only BS to those that have limited their existence to descriptions of their experiences, and reject the actual experience itself..

I have shared accounts of my personal "Qi" experiences many times in these threads.. for me, those experiences are as real as the air i breathe, and.. they defy classic explanations.. someone else's belief or disbelief has no effect on my understanding of my own direct experience. Rather than deny the existence of Qi, i would consider it preferable to take the position of wait and see.. science is far from conclusive on so many observable elements of Life, that there is more to be discovered than has already been "properly categorized"..

We are witness to cultural elitism, where each wants to be superior to the other.. when, actually, superiority is in the unification of the perspectives.. Eastern and Western medicine as a combined medical model is superior to either as exclusive therapies.. superiority is not a concept that builds, it excludes.. the practical application of all healing arts is the path of wisdom.. test the claims, then integrate those that have positive results, kinda simple, huh? no theory or system is perfect, we simply need to apply whichever system best addresses the situation..

Now, to invite criticism even further, i have not been presented any evidence which precludes a human from "projecting "Qi".. either for healing or harming.. Physics has demonstrated that the current model of existence is open to such theories.. i seriously doubt that anyone has mastered that capability, but.. i will not deny its possibility, however slight those chances may be.. more specifically, i am referring to the "Qi balls" so many people ridicule..

but quantum physics is simply what it is: describing how things work at the "very small" level; up here in the big world, Newton still rules...

Quantum Physics deals with the foundation of existence, the substance of "IS".. it is necessary to reduce our perspectives to this miniscule level to eliminate the enormous amount of information that conceals the basic relationship between Consciousness and existence, between Yi and Qi.. the observation that "Newton still rules" is just a limitation on our current ability to sort through the complex relationships of consciousness and energies.. Considering that Quantum Physics observes the effect of Consciousness on the most basic foundational principles of existence, it is reasonable to consider that that relationship exists throughout the experience of existing.. but, it is still a bit too complex for our current level of evolution to comprehend, so.. Newton will do for now..

So many differing belief systems and philosophies and Masters have come to the same conclusion.. it is what it is.. whether i eat the banana with complete realization of its existence and physics properties or just enjoy its natural goodness.. the banana doesn't care, my flesh gets nourished either way, and.. it tastes the same.. I think we go through a process of learning so we can forget.. of conceptualizing until we realize that life goes on, regardless.. then, in a Zen moment, we just forget it all and enjoy the experience..

Be well..

[Vajramusti]

"We are witness to cultural elitism, where each wants to be superior to the other.. when, actually, superiority is in the unification of the perspectives.. Eastern and Western medicine as a combined medical model is superior to either as exclusive therapies.. superiority is not a concept that builds, it excludes.. the practical application of all healing arts is the path of wisdom.. test the claims, then integrate those that have positive results, kinda simple, huh? no theory or system is perfect, we simply need to apply whichever system best addresses the situation.."
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I agree with that whole heartedly.Possibly a misunderstanding of what I was referring to.

On "Empty force" I was referring to folks who point at a line of people and
they "fall" over.

On western medicine- I was referring to pharmaceutical companies who
substitute salesmanship for science.

Actually both instances involve marketing.


joy chaudhuri

[cjurakpt]

I was considering the notion of Qi as a collective effect, and had some interesting thoughts.. i noticed that my daughter was cooking, actually baking a cake from scratch.. and it dawned on me that the "collective effect" was not much different than a recipe.. that various systems combined to create a new unique "substance".. and, i considered consciousness/mind/intention like the heat/catalyst that transforms the ingredients into something yummy..

no surprise that when speaking about cooking, Chinese talk about having "wok qi" - the implication is that there is something "beyond" the constituents of the meal, something that occurs in the gestalt of preparing a meal: the ingredients, the act of preparing them, the state of the preparer - all these all combine in some way to produce a meal; and so, we have a great example of "qi" - it is, in a way, a field effect: and who is to say that everything that is / was / will be in the universe did not contribute in some way?
actually, my teacher uses the analogy of making a cup of hot chocolate (from scratch) to describe the internal alchemical process...

I have no issue with "Mystical" concepts.. in many cases, it is a reference to phenomena that has escaped our measurement thus far.. in other cases, it is, as suggested, BS.. and, i am constantly amused by those that invest so much energy and time in BS.. but, there are unexplained phenomena that cannot be denied or measured.. those observable phenomena are only BS to those that have limited their existence to descriptions of their experiences, and reject the actual experience itself..

I think that the "problem" with mystical experiences is that many people use them improperly - that is, instead of simple accepting them as one type of "ordinary" phenommena, people use them as a way to boost their own ego, even to make themseleves superior to others ("I had this experience and you didn't, therefore I am better then you" - I've seen it in many forms, but that is the take-hme message"; often it's people who are somewhat marginalized from society, who cannot succeed in the "normal" sphere of human activity, so they come at it obliquel and claim mastery in an area where really no one can tell them that they are wrong - a lot of healers have this - Trungpa talks about spiritual materialism, sort of feeling very good about yourself because of these experiences
so to me, they are actually a way to test the ego - you have your "spiritual" experience - and what? do you hold onto it like another golden fetter, or do you simple see it as one side of the sacred/profane coin?

I have shared accounts of my personal "Qi" experiences many times in these threads.. for me, those experiences are as real as the air i breathe, and.. they defy classic explanations.. someone else's belief or disbelief has no effect on my understanding of my own direct experience. Rather than deny the existence of Qi, i would consider it preferable to take the position of wait and see.. science is far from conclusive on so many observable elements of Life, that there is more to be discovered than has already been "properly categorized"..

dang it Bob - the fact that I respect your opinion and give credance to what you write in general makes it very hard for me to outrightly dismiss your opinion when I don't agree with it per se - you are very inconvenient like that...
well, I won't comment either way - but I don't disagree with you either...

We are witness to cultural elitism, where each wants to be superior to the other.. when, actually, superiority is in the unification of the perspectives.. Eastern and Western medicine as a combined medical model is superior to either as exclusive therapies.. superiority is not a concept that builds, it excludes.. the practical application of all healing arts is the path of wisdom.. test the claims, then integrate those that have positive results, kinda simple, huh? no theory or system is perfect, we simply need to apply whichever system best addresses the situation..

agreed

Now, to invite criticism even further, i have not been presented any evidence which precludes a human from "projecting "Qi".. either for healing or harming.. Physics has demonstrated that the current model of existence is open to such theories.. i seriously doubt that anyone has mastered that capability, but.. i will not deny its possibility, however slight those chances may be.. more specifically, i am referring to the "Qi balls" so many people ridicule..

well, it would depend on the circumstances - if you or someone else were able to produce them consistently under "laboratory" conditions, ok, that's one thing; but unfortunately, every time this has been attempted, it doesn't pan out, suggesting it is an inherently subjective exprience on the part of those involved...

Quantum Physics deals with the foundation of existence, the substance of "IS".. it is necessary to reduce our perspectives to this miniscule level to eliminate the enormous amount of information that conceals the basic relationship between Consciousness and existence, between Yi and Qi.. the observation that "Newton still rules" is just a limitation on our current ability to sort through the complex relationships of consciousness and energies.. Considering that Quantum Physics observes the effect of Consciousness on the most basic foundational principles of existence, it is reasonable to consider that that relationship exists throughout the experience of existing.. but, it is still a bit too complex for our current level of evolution to comprehend, so.. Newton will do for now..

I think of it this way: on he quantum level, if you were standing in the middle of a street and a truck came driving at you, if you "believed" that the truck was going to pass right through you, it could work; however, you can believe that as much as you want, can convince yourself thouroughly that you and the truck are both masses of particles that in all probability will not occupy the same space at the same time, so you will pass harmlessly right through each other, and it won't make any difference to what really will happen; probably because the amount of energy necessary to suspend Newtonian rules locally while holding them constant in general is way beyond what your belief could ever generate - or something like that...

So many differing belief systems and philosophies and Masters have come to the same conclusion.. it is what it is.. whether i eat the banana with complete realization of its existence and physics properties or just enjoy its natural goodness.. the banana doesn't care, my flesh gets nourished either way, and.. it tastes the same.. I think we go through a process of learning so we can forget.. of conceptualizing until we realize that life goes on, regardless.. then, in a Zen moment, we just forget it all and enjoy the experience..

so, eventually, no banna, no taste, no eating - where are "you" then?

On "Empty force" I was referring to folks who point at a line of people and
they "fall" over.
On western medicine- I was referring to pharmaceutical companies who
substitute salesmanship for science.
Actually both instances involve marketing.

this is absolutely correct - in each case, you illustrate an extreme situation where the ego of the individual / organization has eclipsed the original intent of the approach: whether TCM or allopathic, they are both necessarilly subject to human desire, insecurity etc. because, of course, they cannot function in the abstract;
if I am cranky at times, it's because I have seen both extremes: I like to joke how you can see a drug rep coming a mile away with their little pull behind suitcases; similarly, the "energy healers" who think they have the purview to treat anybody and can do a much better job then any doctor; so if I am excessively austere in my pronouncements, it's because I want to keep ego out of it - there can be no room for "self" when you work with a patient, and so you need to be perfectly clear about what it is that you are doing, about what is really going on, otherwise, sooner or later, you will get nailed by your own arrogance, and this will ultimately harm someone you are working with

[woliveri]

When I see a man of 74 who looks like a healthy, radiant, 50 year old and who at will manifests the effect of Qi on his arms and knocks me on my @ss with a simple move, I understand the results of Qi Practice.

When I stand with a 75 year old Qigong Master who's Qi radiates outward and affects my Qi level, I understand the results of Qi Practice.

When I see a Nei Gong Master who's stomach looks like he's a professional Beer Drinker but when I punch it with all my might it's like punching a car's Steel Belted Radial, I understand the results of Qi Practice.

[PangQuan]

One thing I always found funny:

We are born, from the nothing we come and are given life. LIFE. No small task mind you. To create LIFE. Very magical if you ask me.

We DIE, we go away, leave this plane of existance to go where ever we go. Still quite a magical feat. Science cannot truly explain life or death. Sure to an extent yes, it can, but in totality science falls very short.

So many miracles and happenings of magic are seen on a daily basis, though we become familiar with these things we do not see them for the wonderful miraculous feats they are.

We can accept the obvious inevitability that LIFE comes from somewhere and goes somewhere when it is done.

Yet we have a hard time understanding or believing in Qi. In all its mariad forms and happenings.

I never understood how people can accept something so un explainable, simply because they can see it on a daily basis, though out right will deny the concepts, theories, and sciences regarding Qi without truly delving deep enough into the subject to wittness its qualities on a daily basis.

Where in fact people, all people, DO witness the occurances of Qi on a daily basis, though they refuse to acknowledge that what they may refer to as one thing is ALSO coincidentally refered to as Qi from another culture.

Yes there are the base occurances of Qi that we see every day, breathing, exersizing, giving birth, dying, singing, dancing, etc.

There are also the more sublte and un explainable occurances that will happen on a daily basis to/for those who have made the whole study of Qi a life long passion and dedication.

Now I think this latter aspect of Qi development, work and usage is what you will usually find to be in debate, though how often will you find someone who has dedicated the last 10 years of thier lives to the study of this amazing phenominon out right deny its existance?

I never have seen such a claim by one who has put in the time. Why would that be so? Maybe perhaps these people were in fact skeptical when they began thier studies, though through time many thruths will find ways of inserting themselves into your perception.

Practice and study being one way to stimulate this insertion.

[TenTigers]

um...everyone is debating,describing the nature of Ch'i, but nobody is relating any of their experiences? Isn't that what the topic is?

[RonH]

what does that mean? define healed"; and in what capacity did you do it? and to what sort of patients? what exactly do you think that you did to them? how many were acute, how many chronic?

don't get me wrong - I;m not suggesting you didn't do anything, but with things like "qi" healing, subjectivity al la entrainment / placebo effect is what is happening (and I do believe placebo effect is real, in terms of bringing about observable physiological changes, BTW, so I'm not suggesting it's make-believe - but it's not as hard to have happen as you may think)

I brought down an emotional barrier composed of 'anxiety energy', which was screwing up the mind of one woman, after having experienced it for most of her life (she was in her early 60s when I brought down the barrier). No physical contact between the two of us. I had made several attempts before to help her, but nothing I was doing could crack that armor. It extended out a good meter at least from any point on or in her body. Then, I was shown something by a friend and I used it to help bring it down. She was still a semi-mean person at times. The anxiety barrier just worsened her symptoms. She's living a much a happier life now.

I have also helped people to get their emotions under control...also without phsycal contact or even with their knowledge, just as I had done with the woman I mentioned above with the barrier around her. A little background, private assistance to help them through some rough spots.

That's just 2 examples. There are others that involve healing the physical body of injury/disease/etc.

[cjurakpt]

I brought down an emotional barrier composed of 'anxiety energy', which was screwing up the mind of one woman, after having experienced it for most of her life (she was in her early 60s when I brought down the barrier). No physical contact between the two of us. I had made several attempts before to help her, but nothing I was doing could crack that armor. It extended out a good meter at least from any point on or in her body. Then, I was shown something by a friend and I used it to help bring it down. She was still a semi-mean person at times. The anxiety barrier just worsened her symptoms. She's living a much a happier life now.

I have also helped people to get their emotions under control...also without phsycal contact or even with their knowledge, just as I had done with the woman I mentioned above with the barrier around her. A little background, private assistance to help them through some rough spots.

That's just 2 examples. There are others that involve healing the physical body of injury/disease/etc.

I'm assuming that you have no license / training of any sort as a health-care practitioner; furthermore, not only is your perspective ridiculous, it is downright dangerous, on a number of levels:

first, your "diagnoses" are inherently unreliable, regardless of what you think you can sense intuitively; while nothing in medicine is completely objective, there needs to be some set of criteria to keep a healthy distance from the client

second, your treating people without training / license means that if (more like when) they have an unexpected / negative response to your "treatment", you a) are more likely to mishandle it; b) they have no recourse, meaning that if you contribute to a crisis / flair-up, they are stuck with it, no mechanism to hold you accountable for what you did

third, if you think that "you" were the one that "brought down the barrier", you need to seriously step back and reassess what you are doing

finally, what is most concerning is your espoused "treatment" of people without their knowledge, which is not only absurd and arrogant, but, even if it were true, is totally unethical! who are you to presume to "fix" someone without their knowledge? that implies they have no roll except as passive recipient, which even from the perspective of energy healing is untenable; furthermore, it deprives them of their fundamental right to have you stop what you are doing at any point

I've known more people with your perspective than I care to admit - heck, I was even moving in that direction myself at one point (I have done more than a fair amount of "off the body" treats, but thankfully realized what was really happening before I got too caught up in it); do yourself and everyone else a favor and stop playing doctor before someone gets hurt...

[Vajramusti]

No wonder people use examples like that for ridiculing the TCM concepts of chi.

On the other extreme is prescribing pills at the drop of a hat...

joy chaudhuri

[cjurakpt]

When I see a man of 74 who looks like a healthy, radiant, 50 year old and who at will manifests the effect of Qi on his arms and knocks me on my @ss with a simple move, I understand the results of Qi Practice.

When I stand with a 75 year old Qigong Master who's Qi radiates outward and affects my Qi level, I understand the results of Qi Practice.

When I see a Nei Gong Master who's stomach looks like he's a professional Beer Drinker but when I punch it with all my might it's like punching a car's Steel Belted Radial, I understand the results of Qi Practice.

look, you can call what you are seeing anything you want, but what you are describing is the net effect of a variety of different functional entities: neuroendocrine, immunological, cardiovascular, neuromuscular, nutritional, pshychological, etc. etc.; instead of going into detailed description of everone of them, "qi" acts as a smmational descriptor, that is commenting on their overall state of being / health; you could just as easily use the word "vitality" (which many people do) to describe what you are talking about; I mean, howmany people have you stood next to in your life who have "altered" your perception of yourself? many people describe being in the presence of politicians, actors, etc. in very similar terms to what you describe when in proximity to a qigong master (and I would agree - i go into my sifu's home and practice with him, and feel like I am turbo-charged - while I can break down the whole experience into various components in order to understand it, while I am there I simply experience it); as far as the results of "qi" practice: the actual practice these guys do and why it works can be explained with contemporary anatomical / physiological / kinesiological knowledge; and the results are that the organism functions more optimally, so that you can experience the effects you describe; so certainly, "qi" practice is beneficial - but it is also totally describable with never once using the terms "qi";

One thing I always found funny:

We are born, from the nothing we come and are given life. LIFE. No small task mind you. To create LIFE. Very magical if you ask me.

We DIE, we go away, leave this plane of existance to go where ever we go. Still quite a magical feat. Science cannot truly explain life or death. Sure to an extent yes, it can, but in totality science falls very short.

So many miracles and happenings of magic are seen on a daily basis, though we become familiar with these things we do not see them for the wonderful miraculous feats they are.

We can accept the obvious inevitability that LIFE comes from somewhere and goes somewhere when it is done.

Yet we have a hard time understanding or believing in Qi. In all its mariad forms and happenings.

I never understood how people can accept something so un explainable, simply because they can see it on a daily basis, though out right will deny the concepts, theories, and sciences regarding Qi without truly delving deep enough into the subject to wittness its qualities on a daily basis.

Where in fact people, all people, DO witness the occurances of Qi on a daily basis, though they refuse to acknowledge that what they may refer to as one thing is ALSO coincidentally refered to as Qi from another culture.

Yes there are the base occurances of Qi that we see every day, breathing, exersizing, giving birth, dying, singing, dancing, etc.

There are also the more sublte and un explainable occurances that will happen on a daily basis to/for those who have made the whole study of Qi a life long passion and dedication.

Now I think this latter aspect of Qi development, work and usage is what you will usually find to be in debate, though how often will you find someone who has dedicated the last 10 years of thier lives to the study of this amazing phenominon out right deny its existance?

I never have seen such a claim by one who has put in the time. Why would that be so? Maybe perhaps these people were in fact skeptical when they began thier studies, though through time many thruths will find ways of inserting themselves into your perception.

Practice and study being one way to stimulate this insertion.

I have put in my time (12 + years); it is precisely because I have put in my time that I can confidently claim what I claim; I know it seems paradoxical, but that's how it is; my perspective in no way diminish the efficacy of what I do - in fact, it has increased it's efficacy; in other words, I am the opposite of what you describe: I went in as a "true believer", fully invested; however, back when I was practicing in context of "qi" alone, my practice was lacking; since I rejected practicing under that context and started adpting my current perspective, everything changed; because it makes sense to me now in terms I can relate to directly (anat/phys/kinese), I feel more "ownership" of the practice, and as such more at ease, more liberated in it - more freedom everywhere - my brutal skepticism has enabled me to unflinchingly question and examine every aspect of what I do, and understand very clearly why I am doing it - as such, I no longer need to go through routines the same way, but rather can be more spontaneous and adaptable as the moment dictates; at the same time, because I have had certain experiences, I am not talking about it from the outside: I have had numerous experiences of the type people describe as related to "qi", but I don't relay them specifically, because I think they are unimportant to anyone but myself;

anyway, your point about the miracle of life is a great one: the point is to see the extraordinary within the profoundly ordinary - that's really the take home message, IMHO

[cjurakpt]

No wonder people use examples like that for ridiculing the TCM concepts of chi.

On the other extreme is prescribing pills at the drop of a hat...

joy chaudhuri

hubris is as equally at home in the esoteric as it is in the scientific...

BTW, it's the US that tends to be pill-obsessed - my wife is a physician formerly practicing in the USSR - the amount of meds prescribed compared to here was significantly less, and results were often better...

[cjurakpt]

um...everyone is debating,describing the nature of Ch'i, but nobody is relating any of their experiences? Isn't that what the topic is?

well, if one rejects the premise, it's hard to provide examples...

I guess I am guilty of a hijack though...

but ok, to break my self-imposed moratorium of description: I have had plenty of "experiences" of stuff - off the body "healing", "energy projection", all my "chakras / central channel" spontaneously "opening up" at 20,000 feet while flying home after a SomatoEmotional Release seminar (oh, I've been around the block with this stuff, believe me), and crazy, crazy stuff when on retreat up at Chuang Yen monastery doing Zhuenti Esoteric Vajrayana practice with Ch'an Master Shou You...but at the end of the day, it's really all just phennomena, more distraction than anything else...

[mantis108]

yes they did - the fact that they had to resort to a metaphorical model to describe the way the body works is evidence that they observed physiological function only up to a point; hence, it was limited; just like "western" medicine pre-1900's was also very limited, and so used many similar types of descriptors (go read some early osteopathic texts - they sound more like TCM than allopathic)

Well, my friend, if you have gotten out of your Descartesian thinking cap, you might realize that my first remark is a part of a lager statement.

Since you have mentioned methaphorical model, which I presume you are talking about Yinyang and 5 phases theory, would you care to elaborate how you come to that conclusion? You do realize that Chinese developed quite complex mathematical expressions concerning Yinyang and Wuxing right? This I believe means that they are not mere literary concepts (ie a methaphor).

There are Neolithic artifacts (stone acupuncture tools) that are evidences of ancient "Chinese" healing practices. By the time of Spring Autuum (770-476 BCE) & Warring States (475-221 BCE), Chinese medicial doctors would even ask assistances to taste the dung of a patient to determine treatment. Eunuches were serving at the Royal court. This means relatively sophisticated operation procedures were available. The first comprehensive medicial text (Huangdi Neijing) was produced during Eastern Han dynasty (25 - 220 CE). The first comprehensive forensic science book was written during Song dynasty (960 - 1279 CE) and is possibly the very first one of its kind in the world. Tie Da (Bone setting, muscular treaments, first aid to cut, burn, trauma, etc.) an age old medical practice, is something that western allopathic medicine today still won't acknowledge its effectiveness. Now with all these credentials behind it, you still believe the ancient Chinese have limited "knowledge" about physiology which is the science of dealing with "normal" (isn't normal relative?) function of living organisms and their parts.

the way "we" know it, is also the way everyone "knows" it - and that's because to a large extent, the bio-medical model trumps the TCM model in most cases, especially in traumatology and infectious disease management; why else has it become dominant? it works more consistently, more reliably and more quickly (largely because it is "forcing" something on the organism, as opposed to TCM, osteo, homeopathy, which push the body's own abilities towards dealing with the illness: works great if you have the forces to do it, and the time...)

Be that as it may, there is a price to pay such as super drug resistive bateria and viruses (ie HIV) that keeps mutating. So the diseases that we thought we have eradicated with allophic measures are making a come back.

again, read up on "western" non-allopathic approaches such as homeopathic, chiropractic and osteopathic in their pre-20th forms: they are also "top down", looking at the entire organism's function in a holistic context; nothing unique about that in China; and the reason they stopped being so prominent here was because when allopathic medicine hit its stride, it worked much better, for all it's linearity, then the other stuff did on most things (not everything, mind you, and certainly some things do respond better to a TCM / ostepathic / etc. approach); in fact, contemporary allopathic approach doesn't put them in opposite corners either;

While you are trumpeting allopathic medicine, you do realize that it's not at all affordable on a large scale right? This is IMHO the primary reason that universal health care is not available in super power nation as rich as the United States of America. Now Canada could be bankrupted if she's not careful with the whole notion of primary care and long term care enbedded in the universal health care system. TCM is feasible as both preventive and long term care measure because

1) it is democratically accessible just about anyone can benefit from practicing it in self help fashion with minimal supervision.

2) it is economically viable with dieting, exercising and herbal tonics and can cut medical and social cost drastically; hence, beneficial to the society as a whole.

why is "qi' quanta? I know Kapra has a very romantic view of Shiva's dance looking like a collision in a particle acccelerator, but quantum physics is simply what it is: describing how things work at the "very small" level; up here in the big world, Newton still rules...

Nebula formation that is akin to DNA formation (double helix) can be observed in galaxy far far away. DNA in essential are chemical components (complex carbohydrates) which operated under the same principles as everything else at the "very small" level. Carbon and hydrogen molecules are everywhere in the universe including those far away Nebula. Oh BTW, water (hydrogen molecules) and fire (carbon molecules) phases are the first 2 phases of the 5 phases. Molecules don't just pops ups. It comes from something (ie particles). You can't create something out of nothing unless you are God Himself right? Whether it's Qi, Quanta, or whatever protomatter, you take your pick.

Newton rules the mechanical world (ie planes, trains, automobiles, rockets or what have you). But it never presides over or problem solve human rights, poverty, etc. pretty much every concerning the human heart. Newtonian physic may make a man knowledgeable but it can never make a person "intelligent" about "matters" (pun intended) of the heart.

mystical experience = self-indulgent cr@pola (just my opinion); mere distraction; solar-flares of the brain...even the Taoist's practicing alchemical transformation warned of them; and the Ch'an folk would smack your head with a broom handle if you talked about that sort of thing...

You are entitle to your opinion. All I am saying is that there is a place for science and there is also a place for mysticism. It doesn't have to be a p!ssing contest of who's better.

why is secularism arrogant? why is it arrogant to see things simply such as they are? if anything, theism / religion is the arrogance: man, in his desire to feel like he occupies some special place in the universe and because of fear of the unkown (death) / possible extinguishing of the ego construct, has created, in his own image, a great fabrication that has been the cause of more suffering and torment than anything else I can fathom; don't consfuse Dao and good: Dao is form and function such as they are, and requires no elaborate theology or even belief in itself to manifest; without human consciousness, poof, God begone - quite a difference...

Well, it simply is a matter of perspective. I am neither a monotheist nor am I a scientist (hardly can be qualify as a mystic either). But without light, structure and shadow, there is no perspective. Sometime we have got to put our minds to work and ask ourselves where the hack is the light coming from and what is it doing here and there?

Warm regards

Mantis108