Your chi stories...

[cjurakpt]

Since you have mentioned methaphorical model, which I presume you are talking about Yinyang and 5 phases theory, would you care to elaborate how you come to that conclusion? You do realize that Chinese developed quite complex mathematical expressions concerning Yinyang and Wuxing right? This I believe means that they are not mere literary concepts (ie a methaphor).

I don't mean it in the literary sense - I mean it in the descriptor sense: wheras in allopathy they describe the function of the liver by looking at the actual liver, in TCM, they describe it in terms of the function of the Wood element; now, we all know that there is no "wood" in the body, but TCM uses it because it looks at the "Liver" in context of its proposed function in regulating the sinews; in allopathy, this is not wht the function of the liver is associated with directly at all; however, an interesting thing to note is that the notion of Wood is that of youth, of regeneration - funny how the liver is one organ that can regenerate itself moreso than any other...so definitely something was observed functionally that reflected this aspect of the liver; however, despite some valid observations, at the same time, their undestanding of actual liver physiology was extrememly limited compared to what is known today
as for the mathematics, I will be the first to say that the I Ching is essentially the worlds first binary computer, and you can also analyze it in context of a normal bell curve (Jou Tsung Hwa's book, specifically); but that has nothing to do with "qi" as a metaphor

There are Neolithic artifacts (stone acupuncture tools) that are evidences of ancient "Chinese" healing practices. By the time of Spring Autuum (770-476 BCE) & Warring States (475-221 BCE), Chinese medicial doctors would even ask assistances to taste the dung of a patient to determine treatment. Eunuches were serving at the Royal court. This means relatively sophisticated operation procedures were available. The first comprehensive medicial text (Huangdi Neijing) was produced during Eastern Han dynasty (25 - 220 CE). The first comprehensive forensic science book was written during Song dynasty (960 - 1279 CE) and is possibly the very first one of its kind in the world. Tie Da (Bone setting, muscular treaments, first aid to cut, burn, trauma, etc.) an age old medical practice, is something that western allopathic medicine today still won't acknowledge its effectiveness. Now with all these credentials behind it, you still believe the ancient Chinese have limited "knowledge" about physiology which is the science of dealing with "normal" (isn't normal relative?) function of living organisms and their parts.

I am not saying that, in its time, Ancient Chinese medicine wasn't high level - but it was still limited compared to what is known today; same with Egypt or other Middle Eastern countries at around the same time; as for bone setting, it is not at all rejected by allopathy - rather, it has been updated to be more reliable and safer (e.g. - usin x-rays to diagnose the exact nature of a frature and doing an ORIF eliminates a lot of the potential risk of palpating and manually setting a break without visual access); as for muscle treatments, these are in fact widely accepted by physiatrists (PM & R docs) and orthopedists: to wit, they send people to PT all the time, and we use things like PNF, Muscle Energy, Counterstrain, etc. to treat muscles directly; also, Janet Travel, MD and Hans Kraus, MD popularized the practice of trigger point injection to treat muscles; furthermore, chiropractic and Ostepathic manual practice is accepted by many MD's; if Dit Da is not accepted, it's probably due more to it just not being as well known, and also because of how Emergency Medicine functions in the US in terms of access; but I think that is changing, to wit Tom Bisio and co. teaching it in NYC, with very good results I understand;
but still, if you had your hand cut off in ancient China, no one was reconnecting it microsurgically...so they were still limited as compared to today

Be that as it may, there is a price to pay such as super drug resistive bateria and viruses (ie HIV) that keeps mutating. So the diseases that we thought we have eradicated with allophic measures are making a come back.

that has more to do with misuse of antibiotics and lack of proper hygene - it's really more a public health issue than anything; it's not a failure on the part of the treatments per se;

While you are trumpeting allopathic medicine, you do realize that it's not at all affordable on a large scale right? This is IMHO the primary reason that universal health care is not available in super power nation as rich as the United States of America. Now Canada could be bankrupted if she's not careful with the whole notion of primary care and long term care enbedded in the universal health care system. TCM is feasible as both preventive and long term care measure because
1) it is democratically accessible just about anyone can benefit from practicing it in self help fashion with minimal supervision.
2) it is economically viable with dieting, exercising and herbal tonics and can cut medical and social cost drastically; hence, beneficial to the society as a whole.

I am not talking economics, but TBH, it's not allopathy per se that is expensive, but rather the medical industrial complex (to paraphrase Eisenhower) that has taken control of it that has made it so prohibitively expensive; resource allocation has always been asymmetrical, and as such, the have's want to stay that way, so they use mechanisms of health and other resources (energy, food, water) to maintain the status quo; the reason they use allopathy as an instrument is because it works as well as it did although they also interfere with TCM gaining ground because they want total dominance of the market (conspiracy? oh yeah...)
actually, "western" medicine's greatest contribution has probably been in the field of public health, which, if properly applied, is cheap and effective (e.g. - sneezing into your elbow and washing your hands more are two simple ways to stop disease spreading and this costs nothing); that also includes healthy lifestyle and decreasing stressors (Selye) - but what interfere's with these are the demands of modern society, basically dealing with the mess we have made of our planet and the fact that there are just too many of us living on it

Nebula formation that is akin to DNA formation (double helix) can be observed in galaxy far far away. DNA in essential are chemical components (complex carbohydrates) which operated under the same principles as everything else at the "very small" level. Carbon and hydrogen molecules are everywhere in the universe including those far away Nebula. Oh BTW, water (hydrogen molecules) and fire (carbon molecules) phases are the first 2 phases of the 5 phases. Molecules don't just pops ups. It comes from something (ie particles). You can't create something out of nothing unless you are God Himself right? Whether it's Qi, Quanta, or whatever protomatter, you take your pick.

it basically shows that nature works along principles that mirror each other from micro to macro (fractals), and as such there are a limited number of "shapes" that it uses to function as such; as for fire and water being 2 of the 5 phases (not necesarily the first two - it depends on which schema you use), well, that's because they are important / essential elements to basic life maintenance, not because the ancient Chinese knew anything about molecular structure (although I am not clear as to your point regarding this in general)

Newton rules the mechanical world (ie planes, trains, automobiles, rockets or what have you). But it never presides over or problem solve human rights, poverty, etc. pretty much every concerning the human heart. Newtonian physic may make a man knowledgeable but it can never make a person "intelligent" about "matters" (pun intended) of the heart.

not so - your physical structure, subject to the laws of physics, effects your emotional state profoundly - if I break my leg falling out of a tree, I will have a change of emotional state immediately; likewise, if I am physicall out of proximity of someone I love deeply, i can experience emotional changes - so I think our physical existence and the laws that govern it have a great impact on our emotional state, but we just don't notice it because we take it for granted

You are entitle to your opinion. All I am saying is that there is a place for science and there is also a place for mysticism. It doesn't have to be a p!ssing contest of who's better.

it's very simple: don't confuse the relative with the absolute; in other words, sometimes you need to pay attention to individual trees when walking through the forrest; circumstance dictates which is needed when;

Well, it simply is a matter of perspective. I am neither a monotheist nor am I a scientist (hardly can be qualify as a mystic either). But without light, structure and shadow, there is no perspective. Sometime we have got to put our minds to work and ask ourselves where the hack is the light coming from and what is it doing here and there?

God is dead; so is Nietzsche; we are also nothing more than walking corpses...

[mantis108]

Thanks for the reply, I have just a short one for now.

don't mean it in the literary sense - I mean it in the descriptor sense: wheras in allopathy they describe the function of the liver by looking at the actual liver, in TCM, they describe it in terms of the function of the Wood element; now, we all know that there is no "wood" in the body, but TCM uses it because it looks at the "Liver" in context of its proposed function in regulating the sinews; in allopathy, this is not wht the function of the liver is associated with directly at all; however, an interesting thing to note is that the notion of Wood is that of youth, of regeneration - funny how the liver is one organ that can regenerate itself moreso than any other...so definitely something was observed functionally that reflected this aspect of the liver; however, despite some valid observations, at the same time, their undestanding of actual liver physiology was extrememly limited compared to what is known today

I believe in TCM the liver's main function is that it houses and regulates blood; where as lungs houses and regulates air as a form of Qi. In the context of the Wuxing model, it is of the wood element because of its blood nuturing attributes as well as that it has a distinctive blue tint (ultra violet) - the color of wood. 5 Phases are meant to be abstract thinking model. It is carefully constructed and not at all random and arbitrary unlike a lot of the would be experts would have us think.

as for the mathematics, I will be the first to say that the I Ching is essentially the worlds first binary computer, and you can also analyze it in context of a normal bell curve (Jou Tsung Hwa's book, specifically); but that has nothing to do with "qi" as a metaphor

I am not familiar with the bell curve and am not aware of Jou Tsung Hwa's book concerning this. I do have his Taiji book though. I would have to double check on that. As for the binary system, well it was a gross misterpretation on the Xian Tian Tu (primodial arrangement) by Shao Kangjie (1011-1077 CE). That arrangement's worldview is IMHO more akin to Quantum Physics in it's original intend. But Zhu Xi (around 1130 CE) didn't quite get the mathematics and the phenomena studies of Shao. So he created his own method resorting to a simpler reasoning model (dualistic) which resulted in later discovery of the "link" between it to the binary system by the western world. But like the Chinese would have said "some wrong could come out right". Zhu Xi's worldview is dualistic where the world is simply black and white as his school of thoughts preaches. So... I think we should be aware of that.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[RonH]

I'm assuming that you have no license / training of any sort as a health-care practitioner;

Why would you assume that?

furthermore, not only is your perspective ridiculous, it is downright dangerous, on a number of levels:

first, your "diagnoses" are inherently unreliable, regardless of what you think you can sense intuitively;

The fact she is living a healthier and a lot more clam life now is an example in favor of the reliability of such examinations.

while nothing in medicine is completely objective, there needs to be some set of criteria to keep a healthy distance from the client

In certain circumstances, yes. In others, being close helps the 'patient' physically and mentally.

second, your treating people without training / license means that if (more like when) they have an unexpected / negative response to your "treatment",

What I've done is not the same as giving a certain amount of medicine to a patient in the form of pills/liquids/etc.

you a) are more likely to mishandle it;

If the intent is to help and heal, the energy will follow those commands. There is more programming of the energy that needs to be done (depending on the person giving the treatment and how they are treating them), but the energy won't suddenly turn around and make their flesh burn or the eyes explode. It doesn't work like that.

b) they have no recourse, meaning that if you contribute to a crisis / flair-up, they are stuck with it, no mechanism to hold you accountable for what you did

If chi is given to heal one's physical, mental or emotional body, the target has the choice of accepting it or rejecting it. Sometimes, the conscious or subconscious is unaware that there is energy that is trying to help them. Not because the target really wants to be sick. There is the chance of that, but that is not the default position. More often than not, it is a lack of understanding that causes the rejection, not some masochistic tendencies.

third, if you think that "you" were the one that "brought down the barrier", you need to seriously step back and reassess what you are doing

Why? My track record of many many years of successes speaks for itself. When it doesn't work, it comes from the 'damage' being too much for my abilities or I didn't find the proper way to end the situation. How I work doesn't exacerbate symptoms.

finally, what is most concerning is your espoused "treatment" of people without their knowledge, which is not only absurd and arrogant, but, even if it were true, is totally unethical!

In a physical altercation, if one were to move so fast that one's opponent doesn't understand how his energy is being redirected/manipulated, would it be unethical to fight against him in that fashion? Mental/emotional manipulation is often done in many things in life. When you give pain medicine to a patient, you are interferring with the mental and emotional state of the patient.

Politics itself is mind control and it continues to exist.

Someone with a rudimentary amount of understanding of how to use chi in healing or anything else can figure out how to use it appropriately. Even then, the best, deliberate exercise one would use is just loading someone up with so much chi that they cross the level their bodies are able to comfortably sustain within themselves.

who are you to presume to "fix" someone without their knowledge? that implies they have no roll except as passive recipient, which even from the perspective of energy healing is untenable;

It's tenable.

furthermore, it deprives them of their fundamental right to have you stop what you are doing at any point

When a body wants, it takes from its environment. When it is 'full' or rejects something, it closes itself off as much as it can. I get very clear signals that bodies stop 'feeding', so I stop.

I've known more people with your perspective than I care to admit - heck, I was even moving in that direction myself at one point (I have done more than a fair amount of "off the body" treats, but thankfully realized what was really happening before I got too caught up in it); do yourself and everyone else a favor and stop playing doctor before someone gets hurt...

It's unfortunate that you don't have a clear understanding what's happening. If you'd care to say 'what was really happening', I'd be better able to clarify things for you.

[cjurakpt]

Why would you assume that?

because the way you talk about things and the whole MO you use is indicative of that; so does your not saying that you are but rather posing an irrelevant question - if you were licensed, why not simply say so and resolve that issue? although, if in fact you are licsensed, then you show a decided lack of regard for proper professional comportment; so, which is it?

The fact she is living a healthier and a lot more clam life now is an example in favor of the reliability of such examinations.

no, it means that the human organism is very good at taking almost any form of generalized "input" and using it as fulcrum to leverage itself towards homeostasis, especially when that input fits the person's psycho emotional needs - welcome to the world of the autonomic nervous system and the very strong, very real phennomenon know as the placebo effect

In certain circumstances, yes. In others, being close helps the 'patient' physically and mentally.

you can be very close, but you still ned to keep some distance, otherwise you loose proper perspective, plain and simple

What I've done is not the same as giving a certain amount of medicine to a patient in the form of pills/liquids/etc.

it has nothing to do with what you give them: I've seen people flair up / flip out from both hands on manual and "off the body" energy healing; there is no such thing as a free lunch: if something is really strong enough to help you, it is strong enough to harm you; sound clinical judgement is usually enough to keep any untoward effects from happening, but every now and then something goes awry, as it's impossible to be 100% accurate when trying to predicte patient response

If the intent is to help and heal, the energy will follow those commands. There is more programming of the energy that needs to be done (depending on the person giving the treatment and how they are treating them),

oh, this is the old Upledger party line: the patient's "inner physician" will always know exactly what that person needs, way better than anyone else can, and as long as the intention is right, the univese wil take care of it; well, if that person's IP is so smart, why are they in this mess to being with?

but the energy won't suddenly turn around and make their flesh burn or the eyes explode. It doesn't work like that.

what I'm talking about is that with this kind of "stuff", you can have wonderful autonomic mediated flair ups: I don't know what population you are used to workng with, but where I worked in NYC for ~10 years, our clinic was known for working mostly with people that had been everywhere else: most people's "impossible" cases were our bread and butter - so we saw people with some really unbelieveable stuff; as such, every now and again someone would have a unanticipated poor response, even when you went that extra mile to make sure they wouldn't - but that's what happens every now and then when you are dealing with people whose systems are out of balance

If chi is given to heal one's physical, mental or emotional body, the target has the choice of accepting it or rejecting it. Sometimes, the conscious or subconscious is unaware that there is energy that is trying to help them. Not because the target really wants to be sick. There is the chance of that, but that is not the default position. More often than not, it is a lack of understanding that causes the rejection, not some masochistic tendencies.

you seem to miss my point entirely - if the person has a negative reaction, for whatever reason, as the result of a treatment, then a licensed practioner will be legally responsible if they acted in a way that was unprofessional, unethical or deviated from what is considered to be appropriate practice for that profession - as a professional, the onus is on you because the patient has put their trust in you; if you betray that covenant, willingly or unknowingly, you need to be held accountable, the patient needs to have recourse for you not holding up your end of the agreement; if you have no license, that can't happen, especially when you are engaging in "treatments" that are not recognized as having inherent efficacy (so in other words, you think "qi" healing is real and effective, but the system doesn't; that works out very nicely for you if the patien later on claims that you did something to them using "qi" - the system doesn't recognize it, so technically you couldn't possibly have caused the negative effect, since "qi" doesn't really exist - nice catch 22 in your favor, but totally unfair to the patient)

Why? My track record of many many years of successes speaks for itself. When it doesn't work, it comes from the 'damage' being too much for my abilities or I didn't find the proper way to end the situation. How I work doesn't exacerbate symptoms.

yes, it speaks for itself, because it is inherently impacted by a host of subjective criteria; what are your actual percentages in terms of succes? how do you define success? and what are you recidivism rates? also, what are your criteria for even taking someone on? don't think you don't subjectively screen out people you don't think you can help (never mind that a large percentage of the population self-screens themselves out by not even seeking out what you do), which automatically improves your track record; in other words, the vast majority, if not all, the people who end up coming to you are predisposed towards "fringe" treatments, and being thusly invested at the outset are predisposed towards a positive outcome, because they have decided beforehand that your thing is what's going to fix 'em;
and as for not exacerbating symptoms: if you want to make an omlette you gotta be willing to break a few eggs - input / output - if what you are doing is such that intrinsically it "can't" exacerbate something, then it's not what's really "healing" the people you are "treating" - there is no free lunch...

In a physical altercation, if one were to move so fast that one's opponent doesn't understand how his energy is being redirected/manipulated, would it be unethical to fight against him in that fashion? Mental/emotional manipulation is often done in many things in life. When you give pain medicine to a patient, you are interferring with the mental and emotional state of the patient.

are you kidding?!? when you are fighting, it's inherently adversarial! you are actively trying to take someone's choices away! the whole point of combat is to be unethical - that's why it's fighting! when you are healing, it's the exact opposite: you are trying to give someone more choices, to increase their freedom - doing something to them without their knowledge is sickiningly paternalistic, and even the most out-there energy healer types I know wouldn't go for it; as for pain meds, you call it interfering (some might call it intervening, or even alleviating), which belies your own strong personal bias, sorry to say, and is an extremely judgemental way of characterizing something that, for many people, enables them to be functional in their lives when they other wise couldn't be; don't get me wrong, BTW - I am no cheerleader for pain meds, and in many cases i thik that they become more of a problem than the original injury, but you need to evaluate each person individually rather than making sweeping generalized comments about what pain meds are or do...

Politics itself is mind control and it continues to exist.

proof basically of mankind's eternal drive to stick its head in the sand as long as it's not inconvenienced...but I'm not here to debate humanity's history of ineptitude in regards to itself and the environment in which it exists

Someone with a rudimentary amount of understanding of how to use chi in healing or anything else can figure out how to use it appropriately. Even then, the best, deliberate exercise one would use is just loading someone up with so much chi that they cross the level their bodies are able to comfortably sustain within themselves.

riiight - be very wary of any method where beginners have even the possibility of having an effect anywhere's near that of an experienced practitioner - if they can, it's just more evidence that what they are doing is a) BS; b) not what is actually having the effect they are observing - again: no free lunches!

It's tenable.

it's not; and it's totally unethical

When a body wants, it takes from its environment. When it is 'full' or rejects something, it closes itself off as much as it can. I get very clear signals that bodies stop 'feeding', so I stop.

right - all of a sudden, this body, which is so out of balance that it can't self organize enough to the point where the person is asymptomatic, all of a sudden "knows" just what it needs, even to the point where it tells you when it's "full" - how convenient...

It's unfortunate that you don't have a clear understanding what's happening. If you'd care to say 'what was really happening', I'd be better able to clarify things for you.

brother, I am crystal clear on what is going on - I have no illusions about it - there is nothing for you to clarify at all, so don't worry youself about it in the least...

anyway, this is a pointless pursuit, we will obviously not see eye-to-eye on this; good luck in the future and consider yourself lucky you have come this far without incident...

[TenTigers]

so..Chris, have you had any experiences with Ch'i? Could you share them?
-otherwise this thread is turning into the annex for the JREF.
The thing is, from what I've seen, pretty much every phenomena could in some way be explained. I would like to hear some experiences which make you go,"I've seen and experienced some things that have totally flipped me out, that to this day, I have no logical explanation for.."

[cjurakpt]

so..Chris, have you had any experiences with Ch'i? Could you share them?
-otherwise this thread is turning into the annex for the JREF.
The thing is, from what I've seen, pretty much every phenomena could in some way be explained. I would like to hear some experiences which make you go,"I've seen and experienced some things that have totally flipped me out, that to this day, I have no logical explanation for.."

well, that's the problem in a way - I have never been satisfied by not having a logical explanation for anything: I mean, i have experienced very strongly what many would call their central channel "opening up", or their "kundalini" rising, whatever; I have dewcribed phennomenna to my teacher that he said straight out was microcosmic and macrocosmic orbit activity - I have felt my entire lower dan tien literally explode and melt away into liquid white light (I know, I know, spare me the jokes) on the 5th day of a seven da Ch'an retreat, and after that sitting for an hour of meditation was a piece of cake compared to the hell it was a day before; I have felt so "full" of "qi" at times, that I thought I'd float away

the difference is that I look at all of these experiences with a certain degree fo skepticism - in a way, I don't trust them, and am not satisfied by the typical explanations; some I have been able to put firmly in context of anat/phys and other "western" disciplines; others are partially satisfied by this, so they are like works i progress; but all are subject to the same scrutiny regardless...

and just for the record, I can still point my fingers at people's palms from a few feet away and place my other open hand behind their's, have them close their eyes, and most people will tell me that they feel activity at the center of their palm, as well as pulsations that occur at the same rate at which I move my fingers toward and away from thier hand...a cheap parlor trick IMHO, but still very interesting...and not proof of "qi" by any means, only an indication that there is an interaction of some sort of field effect between two people that has not yet been objectively documented or articulated...

[Scott R. Brown]

...only an indication that there is an interaction of some sort of field effect between two people that has not yet been objectively documented or articulated...

Hmmm.......isn't that sort of the definition of Qi?

[NJM]

Hmmm.......isn't that sort of the definition of Qi?

Not really.

[Scott R. Brown]

...only an indication that there is an interaction of some sort of field effect between two people that has not yet been objectively documented or articulated...

Hmmm.......isn't that sort of the definition of Qi?

Not really.

Well let's see,

1) Some sort of field effect?

Qi, is or has a field effect!

2) Interacts with others?

Qi interacts with other phenomena!

3) Has not yet been objectively documented or articulated?

According to western scientific method, Qi has not been effectively or objectively documented to a reasonable certainty!

I guess I should have said, "It sounds like a description of Qi" or "It describes some of the qualities of Qi", but it seemed to me the connection between "definition" and "description" would be self-evident.

[RonH]

because the way you talk about things and the whole MO you use is indicative of that

If you desire the specifics, I've had some medical training, but I'm not a doctor, nor am I a med student. Plus, with the way I speak of things, you separate a particular method of speech with one type of view, as if having medical training meant I couldn't or wouldn't speak of things in the way I have been.

so does your not saying that you are but rather posing an irrelevant question

I was just asking why you thought that. There wasn't any hidden agenda behind it.

if you were licensed, why not simply say so and resolve that issue?

Because whether I was a licensed medical doctor is irrelevent when it comes to chi healing. One is not required for the other.

although, if in fact you are licsensed, then you show a decided lack of regard for proper professional comportment; so, which is it?

Credentials is not the issue. Experience, facts, and logic are.

no, it means that the human organism is very good at taking almost any form of generalized "input" and using it as fulcrum to leverage itself towards homeostasis, especially when that input fits the person's psycho emotional needs - welcome to the world of the autonomic nervous system and the very strong, very real phennomenon know as the placebo effect

And when I don't tell the individual that I am giving them energy to heal them, there can't be a placebo effect. The placebo effect requires a belief in something, specifically consicous belief. Subconscious belief is more like brainwashing.

you can be very close, but you still ned to keep some distance, otherwise you loose proper perspective, plain and simple

We'll need to just accept each other's views and move on on this point.

it has nothing to do with what you give them

Yes, it does. You said I run the risk of making things worse by the healing itself.

I've seen people flair up / flip out from both hands on manual and "off the body" energy healing

I would need some details of the situations to comment on them. Just saying ' I saw something bad happen, it must have an inherent danger' is the wrong attitude to approach it with.

there is no such thing as a free lunch: if something is really strong enough to help you, it is strong enough to harm you; sound clinical judgement is usually enough to keep any untoward effects from happening, but every now and then something goes awry, as it's impossible to be 100% accurate when trying to predicte patient response

Such blanket statements come from a misunderstanding of what is going on. It'd work fine with the medical community, but it isn't the same with energy healing.

oh, this is the old Upledger party line: the patient's "inner physician" will always know exactly what that person needs, way better than anyone else can, and as long as the intention is right, the univese wil take care of it; well, if that person's IP is so smart, why are they in this mess to being with?

What you're calling the inner physician is the subconscious. And I already addressed that part earlier with this bit: "If chi is given to heal one's physical, mental or emotional body, the target has the choice of accepting it or rejecting it. Sometimes, the conscious or subconscious is unaware that there is energy that is trying to help them. Not because the target really wants to be sick. There is the chance of that, but that is not the default position. More often than not, it is a lack of understanding that causes the rejection, not some masochistic tendencies."

If you truly wish to understand the nature of energy healing and the 'medicine' of it, this is one of the best starting points you can have.

what I'm talking about is that with this kind of "stuff", you can have wonderful autonomic mediated flair ups: I don't know what population you are used to workng with, but where I worked in NYC for ~10 years, our clinic was known for working mostly with people that had been everywhere else: most people's "impossible" cases were our bread and butter - so we saw people with some really unbelieveable stuff; as such, every now and again someone would have a unanticipated poor response, even when you went that extra mile to make sure they wouldn't - but that's what happens every now and then when you are dealing with people whose systems are out of balance

Any energy healing worth his salt wouldn't deny modern medicine. I've recommended it with people that I have healed with energy. There have been some that have requested energy healing and I've sent them straight to the arms of their general practicioner for some modern medicine. As far as these 'flair ups' you've vaguely talked of, any number of reasons could be the cause, even when the healer knows what they're doing. Where it isn't the fault of the healer or the technique, but of something else. This is why specifics are important in what those situations are.

you seem to miss my point entirely - if the person has a negative reaction, for whatever reason, as the result of a treatment, then a licensed practioner will be legally responsible if they acted in a way that was unprofessional, unethical or deviated from what is considered to be appropriate practice for that profession -

I didn't miss the point. But, what you are suggesting here is that the flair up must have been caused by the healer, seemingly as the default position when there could have been something else that was the true cause of the flair up. If a patient is in recovery after surgury and he willingly does something that would force him to be reopened, would you automatically blame the doctor that performed the surgury or would you investigate to find out the actual cause of what went wrong? What if it was someone that snuck into recovery and did something to the patient? What then?

as a professional, the onus is on you because the patient has put their trust in you; if you betray that covenant, willingly or unknowingly, you need to be held accountable, the patient needs to have recourse for you not holding up your end of the agreement;

So, imagine the number of legal motions that will fill the courts if it is brought to light just how much of an influence the energy fields of people influence/control emotions, thoughts, physical conditions, the fabric of reality itself:

* Judge: Why are you filing this lawsuit?
* Accuser: He thought bad thoughts about me. That made me depressed and I lost my job. I seek satisfaction of lost wages.
* Judge: Granted, the defendent is ordered to pay the plaintiff for lost wages and pain and suffering caused by mental anguish.
* Accused: But, your honor, the plaintiff is having thoughts about me rotting in jail. These will most likely lead to me spending the rest of my life in prison and I might die in there.
* Judge: What about just thinking it won't happen to you?
* Accused: My accuser had the same choice and he didn't do that.
* Judge: Bailliff, take them both away.

Now, let's get back to the energy healing flair ups. Have you investigated what the cause could have been? Something unknowlingly attached to the energy field of the patient and the healing upset the thing, so it caused the flair up to stop the energy transfer?

if you have no license, that can't happen, especially when you are engaging in "treatments" that are not recognized as having inherent efficacy (so in other words, you think "qi" healing is real and effective, but the system doesn't; that works out very nicely for you if the patien later on claims that you did something to them using "qi" - the system doesn't recognize it, so technically you couldn't possibly have caused the negative effect, since "qi" doesn't really exist - nice catch 22 in your favor, but totally unfair to the patient)

What about instances where we see people get bullied into situations that they don't want to be in? In some, like intimidating a witness in a trial is against the law, but others aren't, such as the school yard bully. The system recognizes that such a negative influence exists in both instances, but it allows for recourse by the inflicted in only one of them. Even some things that are recognized by the system don't let the injured party get compensation.

[quote]yes, it speaks for itself, because it is inherently impacted by a host of subjective criteria; what are your actual percentages in terms of succes?

While I haven't done the specific numbers, my guess would be that it is in the 90s with zero percent for situations where I have aggrivated situations ever.

how do you define success?

The total number of people, divided by the cessation/alteration of the current situation, when there is little change, when there is no change and if the sitaution gets worse. For that last one, as I said above, I have a 0% rating.

[RonH]

and what are you recidivism rates?

In some situations, zero relapse. For instance, I had a temp job once installing awning, drapes and mini-blinds. There were rotating teams for the company and one day, I was working with this one guy who was militant when it came to his health, but he had taken it to the extreme in a subconscious desire to get praise and recognition from his father, who was also one of the 2 owners of the company. His father was also a very disciplined guy, so the son took it to the extreme to get his praise, but it wasn't doing anything to get the praise he wanted. However, one day, I gave him energy to help him out during one particularly hot day, but the energy had the secondary effect of letting him release some of the emotional energy he had pent up inside him. I wasn't around when he blew up, but I heard second hand that his yelling was intense and several of us, including the father of the guy who released his pent up emotions, the other owner and the supervisor of the team I was on at the time, were privately discussing what should be done to help him. And we all came to an agreement that he had personal life issues, that his ultra-regimented lifestyle was unhealthy. I had spoken with the supervisor of the team I was on privately and I poked around for more information, trying to get a quick psychological assessment of the family/work situation both the father and the son had and everything kept leading back to the father-son relationship, which the supervisor agreed probably was the reason. He had known the 2 of them for about 20 years, but he hadn't thought of the cause being the father-son relationship. The supervisor thought it might have been related to the son's relationships with girls, but when I suggested the father-son link and listed reason after reason why I thought that was why, he started seeing how the experiences the son was having with dating were really a symptom of his problems he was having with seeking his father's approval.

Now, the temp assignment was only for about 4 weeks and pretty much everything I learned about his personal life, outside of a few small details, I heard in that one afternoon. I haven't kept in touch with them, but the last I heard was that the son was feeling better after blowing up that one day and releasing many pent up feelings and he hasn't gone back to the same degree of militant disciplin he had before. The guy before he met me was a robot with over 95% of his life. He'd even beat himself up over not keeping his schedule from getting messed up.

There have even been times when someone online has specifically said that they were feeling better, having read a post I had made in regards to a TV show. They felt healthier, they said they were sitting up straighter and I hadn't even intended that they get better. They hadn't entered the conversation at that point. Now, that being said, I am not responsible for anyone I have treated, intentionally or not, if they choose to return to habits that have caused them to regain something they have gotten rid of. If one were to heal the liver of a lifetime drunk, even removing the desire/addiction to drink and they choose to start drinking again like they did before, the healer is not responsible for them getting a screwed up liver again.

But, to cut the details down to small bits, there is always progress or none at all. The time any one has ever 'relapsed' after being treated by me is because they have chosen to go back to the way they were. It hasn't been the fault of the healing itself.

also, what are your criteria for even taking someone on?

Most of the time, it is because I got this sudden urge to help. I haven't set up a healing shop and hung up my shingle. When it wasn't a spur of the moment thing, it's been with those I'm close to and only them.

don't think you don't subjectively screen out people you don't think you can help

I've never come across a time when I thought 'this is too much for my abilities'. You can't go into any situation thinking that.

(never mind that a large percentage of the population self-screens themselves out by not even seeking out what you do)

Are you talking consciously or subconsciously? Because that bloke online that said he was sitting up straighter is actually an atheist, I believe. What I do know of him, he doesn't believe in energy healing, I don't think.

which automatically improves your track record; in other words, the vast majority, if not all, the people who end up coming to you are predisposed towards "fringe" treatments, and being thusly invested at the outset are predisposed towards a positive outcome, because they have decided beforehand that your thing is what's going to fix 'em;

That is what's best. Being open to the energy coming into your body and healing you of what's wrong. There's nothing wrong with that. However, there have been lots of people that don't come to me specifically for that and I find out there's something wrong in passing. I don't go around broadcasting that I can heal with energy. In fact, when people ask me about metaphysical things in real life, I proclaim being an atheist, that I don't believe in psychic powers or magick or an afterlife or anything else related to that stuff. For a time, I had considered trying to get a job at a energy healing place, since I have the master level attunement for reiki, but I chose to not do that.

and as for not exacerbating symptoms: if you want to make an omlette you gotta be willing to break a few eggs - input / output - if what you are doing is such that intrinsically it "can't" exacerbate something, then it's not what's really "healing" the people you are "treating" - there is no free lunch...

And this is more evidence that I could help you better understand energy healing and how responsive energy is with the mind.

are you kidding?!? when you are fighting, it's inherently adversarial! you are actively trying to take someone's choices away! the whole point of combat is to be unethical - that's why it's fighting!

So, that whole bit about Marx and Queensburries rules or whatever was unethical?

when you are healing, it's the exact opposite: you are trying to give someone more choices, to increase their freedom

Exactly, you are supplying the body with an additional source(s) of energy to be utilized by the body. That's part of it.

[quote]- doing something to them without their knowledge is sickiningly paternalistic, and even the most out-there energy healer types I know wouldn't go for it[quote]

So, the people that spread energy in the form of love and peace and hope and good tidings and feelings to help increase peace and harmony amongst large segments of people are sickeningly paternalistic?

as for pain meds, you call it interfering (some might call it intervening, or even alleviating), which belies your own strong personal bias, sorry to say, and is an extremely judgemental way of characterizing something that, for many people, enables them to be functional in their lives when they other wise couldn't be

I'm not calling it interferring. That is the inference you are making when taking what you've said to its ultimate expression of reality. The same would apply to an EMT or an ER doc that is assisting someone that's been in a bad car accident and all the time they are being worked on, they are unconscious. Their conscious mind is not aware of what's going on. Is it unethical to treat someone without their conscious consent? If someone is knocked unconscious and dumped into a river to drown and someone jumps in to get them out, was what they did unethical when they rescued the one bonked on the head, even if they didn't have the legal right to aid in someone's health, like an EMT or an ER doc would?

don't get me wrong, BTW - I am no cheerleader for pain meds, and in many cases i thik that they become more of a problem than the original injury, but you need to evaluate each person individually rather than making sweeping generalized comments about what pain meds are or do...

I'm not making generalizations. All pain meds inhibit the transmission of information from the pain nerves to the brain. Sometimes, they just lower the intensity of the level of pain the brain gets. But, that is what is happening. You are altering their mental and emotional states, regardless of which way they are being manipulated.

[RonH]

proof basically of mankind's eternal drive to stick its head in the sand as long as it's not inconvenienced...but I'm not here to debate humanity's history of ineptitude in regards to itself and the environment in which it exists

Then, you are missing out on a more complete understanding of what's going on with energy healing, either by oneself or by someone else.

riiight - be very wary of any method where beginners have even the possibility of having an effect anywhere's near that of an experienced practitioner - if they can, it's just more evidence that what they are doing is a) BS; b) not what is actually having the effect they are observing - again: no free lunches!

Or C, discovering an ability they didn't know they had or D, there was something that linked up with their energy causing a power surge that's either temporary or permanent, etc. etc.

[qoute]right - all of a sudden, this body, which is so out of balance that it can't self organize enough to the point where the person is asymptomatic, all of a sudden "knows" just what it needs, even to the point where it tells you when it's "full" - how convenient...[/quote]

Okay, this is another subset of energy healing that you need to understand. Even if you were an atheist, DNA also ready knows what it wants when the body is damage. It even goes through its own DNA repair cycle. Immune systems adapt to things in the environment, so they have stronger, healthier bodies. That's why they say it's best to have kids get sick when they're younger to boost their immune system. Come on, now. When surgeons do the best they can to put back together a broken body, sometimes they leave it in the end up to the person's own body knowing what it needs to do the fix itself the rest of the way.

brother, I am crystal clear on what is going on - I have no illusions about it - there is nothing for you to clarify at all, so don't worry youself about it in the least...

It is crystal clear that you don't have a decent level of understanding of what's going on when it comes to energy healing. Your illusion is that you think you've got a good grasp on the subject. The choice is yours to retain the illusion.

anyway, this is a pointless pursuit, we will obviously not see eye-to-eye on this; good luck in the future and consider yourself lucky you have come this far without incident...

It has nothing to do with luck. It have everything to do with knowledge.

[cjurakpt]

well, you've basically responded with the typical types of answers that most "energy healers" I've worked with (and now it makes sense vis a vis the Reiki attunement you mentioned - "master" level, eh? so, I guess you stayed for the entire weekend...)

your answers all sound very reasoned and logical, with the exception that the entire premise from which you operate is funadamentally flawed; for example, you mention treating someone who unconcious by an EMT / ER doc as an example of ethically treating someone without their consent - sorry, it doesn't work for 2 reasons - first off, they are unable to give their consent and as it may be a matter of life or death so you can't really wait for them to wake up and give it (as opposed to the people you "treat" who could if they were asked); second, the MAJOR difference is what I;ve been saying all along: if the EMT or ER doc mess up, they are liable for that - so even when the patient is "out", they still have some measure of protection / recourse; of course, your argument is that it's all good - energy healing is "different", that it can only help or just have no effect at all - wouldn't it be nice if that was the way things really did work?

see, when you treat "obliquely", without really doing anything, it's very easy to say that when it works it was because of what you did, but when it doesn't it was because of something else - not having to folow the rules of cause and effect you are free to shape the circumstances as they occur to your own bias

another red flag is how you offer to help me understand when I have not asked for instruction - you seem just a little too eager to help me (and others), yet you inteestingly do not seem interersted in going through some sort of training that would allow you to work with people in a structured capacity - which is the typical hallmark of the amateur versus the professional: for the amateur, it's an adventure - very romantic; for the professional healer, it's actually very different - it's actually routine, even boring - that's what happens when you treat 8 to 10 people a day (also a little harder to get your "perfect" numbers...) who come in with real, actual sickness (sorry, your curtain-hanger example really doesn't impress in the least - try your mumbo with a baby who has chronic ear infections or an adult with fibromyalgia and see where you get); the "skill" is then, to move past the routine, and find the spintinaity, the freshness of each person, despite the repetition: that is, finding the profound within the ordinary, as opposed to looking for the extraordinary as a means of personal entertainment - your writings ultimately reflect back on yourself as being an important part of the equation (e.g. - the "urge" to help: as a professional, I don't have that luxury - you make yourself available to those in need, and do your work for their benefit, even when you don't feel like it) - it's actually quite the opposite: the "healer" should fade out, the healing itself is what matters;

but overall, it's ok, because you are not hanging out a shingle and taking money for your services; like that you can spin your magic on unsuspecting people without concern because since you are neither actually doing anything any different than anyone else projecting thoughts at them in the course of their day, because they have no expectation of healing from you, it's fine; as you say, there is no difference between what you are doing and between what any random person walking by them and projecting thoughts at them is doing, so that's fine;

anyway, thanks for the little amusement - it's a good reminder of why I no longer do or deal with people who do this stuff anymore

[cjurakpt]

oh wait - a few other things...

If you desire the specifics, I've had some medical training, but I'm not a doctor, nor am I a med student. Plus, with the way I speak of things, you separate a particular method of speech with one type of view, as if having medical training meant I couldn't or wouldn't speak of things in the way I have been.

so obviously I was right then, to assume it - and from the way you spoke of thing i was able to correctly dicern you are not trained / licensed;

Because whether I was a licensed medical doctor is irrelevent when it comes to chi healing. One is not required for the other.

no - the relevance is not in terms of what modality you use, but in terms of the context within which you apply it

Credentials is not the issue. Experience, facts, and logic are.

wrong again - credentials assure the patient that you have had the type of training necessary to ensure their protection as much as possible (of course, someone with training can still do something wrong/inappropriate, but again, the patient has recourse)

And when I don't tell the individual that I am giving them energy to heal them, there can't be a placebo effect. The placebo effect requires a belief in something, specifically consicous belief. Subconscious belief is more like brainwashing.

if you don't tell the patient anything, then you have no way of knowing if they actually got better: the entire expeience goes through your subjective filter, and your personal bias is evident, because you never talked to them before or after so you actually don't know what they think / feel

I would need some details of the situations to comment on them. Just saying ' I saw something bad happen, it must have an inherent danger' is the wrong attitude to approach it with.

again, all things ith power can either harm or heal depending on how they are used, no exceptions

[QUOTE=RonH;782482]Such blanket statements come from a misunderstanding of what is going on. It'd work fine with the medical community, but it isn't the same with energy healing.
right, because that's the world of free lunches - it's all good, the universe will take care of thing; total BS

What you're calling the inner physician is the subconscious. And I already addressed that part earlier with this bit: "If chi is given to heal one's physical, mental or emotional body, the target has the choice of accepting it or rejecting it. Sometimes, the conscious or subconscious is unaware that there is energy that is trying to help them. Not because the target really wants to be sick. There is the chance of that, but that is not the default position. More often than not, it is a lack of understanding that causes the rejection, not some masochistic tendencies."

it's funny, you keep repeating this stuff like it's real, like these little conveninet beliefs have some basis in reality; anyway, the Inner Physician is not my term, it's John Upledger's, and it's not the subconscious per se; but anyway, the point is that if this inner healler/subconscious is so preemminent, why is the person sick in the first place?

Any energy healing worth his salt wouldn't deny modern medicine. I've recommended it with people that I have healed with energy. There have been some that have requested energy healing and I've sent them straight to the arms of their general practicioner for some modern medicine.

ah yes, the old "even I have sent peple to an MD" duck; sorry, accepting the norm does not substantiate the fringe

As far as these 'flair ups' you've vaguely talked of, any number of reasons could be the cause, even when the healer knows what they're doing. Where it isn't the fault of the healer or the technique, but of something else. This is why specifics are important in what those situations are.

I didn't miss the point. But, what you are suggesting here is that the flair up must have been caused by the healer, seemingly as the default position when there could have been something else that was the true cause of the flair up. If a patient is in recovery after surgury and he willingly does something that would force him to be reopened, would you automatically blame the doctor that performed the surgury or would you investigate to find out the actual cause of what went wrong? What if it was someone that snuck into recovery and did something to the patient? What then?

are you kidding? where did you learn to reason? first off, only someone with psychological problems would "willingly" do something (whatever that might be) requiring beng re-opened; and in that case no one would blame the surgeon; similarly if someone "snuck into recovery" (yeah, that happens ALL the time), obviously it has nothing to d with the doc...so again, your point maks no sense: when I talk about a patient having a flair-up (e.g. - an exacerbation of presenting symptoms) follwing a session because of the treatment itself, it simply shows that the power of the treatment was such that it reacted with the initial imbalance in a waay that created the flair-up; now, this may or may not be a bad thing, it may even be something the patient has to go through; but the point is that, when it happens, as a professional you know what to do about it and how to deal with a patient who may be a bit freaked out

So, imagine the number of legal motions that will fill the courts if it is brought to light just how much of an influence the energy fields of people influence/control emotions, thoughts, physical conditions, the fabric of reality itself

wow, the sky must be pretty in your world; so, you think that because someone thinks bad thoughts about me it impacts what happens, what I do, etc.? if that were the case, i think I'd be a newt or a pile of ash by now; wait, wait, let me try...did you turn into a gazelle with a pink top hat? no? strange...

Now, let's get back to the energy healing flair ups. Have you investigated what the cause could have been? Something unknowlingly attached to the energy field of the patient and the healing upset the thing, so it caused the flair up to stop the energy transfer?

please try to stay on the same planet with the rest of us; you don't need bizzare explanations for why a flair-up can happen; you do a treatment, the organism can't handle the change in the local physiology and has a generalized inflammatory response, and the person feel like cr@p for a few days - the implication is that what ever you did somewhere to get some structures moving was too much for the already out of balanced system to handle and integrate; of course, with experience, you learn what to do to avoid this, and on what type of patients you have to be more careful of this happeneing, and also what you can tell someone to d after a treat to minimize the chances (which varies from person to person)

What about instances where we see people get bullied into situations that they don't want to be in? In some, like intimidating a witness in a trial is against the law, but others aren't, such as the school yard bully. The system recognizes that such a negative influence exists in both instances, but it allows for recourse by the inflicted in only one of them. Even some things that are recognized by the system don't let the injured party get compensation.

no one said anything was perfect - but the intention is there; as for your yet again inept analogy: with the school yard bully, if there is proof of assault, the law does get involved; if it is something that is below the scope of the legal system, then the school's diciplinary system handles it, duh...

[QUOTE=RonH;782482]While I haven't done the specific numbers, my guess would be that it is in the 90s with zero percent for situations where I have aggrivated situations ever.
your guess? sorry, that's meaningless - if you have not been keeping track with some sort of documentation, then your recall alone is highly unreliable, especially if you have had no actual contact with the person before bestowing your healing on them, if you don't see them anymore, then how do you actually know what is ging on a year later? and if no one you treated has ever had a negative response, you are either God or clueless - oh, but wait! that's right! all the negative effets you've ever seen weren't from you, they were from something else! wht a relief...

The total number of people, divided by the cessation/alteration of the current situation, when there is little change, when there is no change and if the sitaution gets worse. For that last one, as I said above, I have a 0% rating.

I have no idea what you mean here, except that I'd rate you about a "0" myself as well...

[cjurakpt]

In some situations, zero relapse. For instance, I had a temp job once installing awning, drapes and mini-blinds blah blah blah

that entire "example" was just the kind of solipsistic claptrap that keeps people like you thinking that they have some special insight into the world, when in fact they are just as relatively unimportant as everyone else...

There have even been times when someone online has specifically said that they were feeling better, having read a post I had made in regards to a TV show. They felt healthier, they said they were sitting up straighter and I hadn't even intended that they get better. They hadn't entered the conversation at that point.

so you never iintended to do anything, it wasn't in person, and they hadn't even been on-line when you were posting, but read something you wrote and contacted you to tell you that they were feeling better?!? and yet you think that you were the one responsible for that?!?!? I almost don't know what to think here...

Now, that being said, I am not responsible for anyone I have treated, intentionally or not, if they choose to return to habits that have caused them to regain something they have gotten rid of. If one were to heal the liver of a lifetime drunk, even removing the desire/addiction to drink and they choose to start drinking again like they did before, the healer is not responsible for them getting a screwed up liver again.

that is true - and I am the first one to tell all my patient's straight out that anything I suggest that they do its up to them to do it or not, I actually don't really care - my "promise" is to treat them to the best of my ability, and if they help or hinder that on their own, that's their choice, but I won't judge them; if they go back to the behaviors that created their pain, that is their right; what you are responsible for is what happens to them as a result of the actual treatment, not what they do later on that is unrelated to it

But, to cut the details down to small bits, there is always progress or none at all. The time any one has ever 'relapsed' after being treated by me is because they have chosen to go back to the way they were. It hasn't been the fault of the healing itself.

again, that's assuming you actually did anything at all - but your way of assessing and following up are so subjective and biased that you have no way of knowing what really did happen

Most of the time, it is because I got this sudden urge to help. I haven't set up a healing shop and hung up my shingle. When it wasn't a spur of the moment thing, it's been with those I'm close to and only them.

hallmark of an amateur

I've never come across a time when I thought 'this is too much for my abilities'. You can't go into any situation thinking that.

if you are playing healer, then it's fine; if you are dealing with the real world, it;s the first and foremost thing on your mind, and is what keeps you from harming someone when what they have is beyond the scope of your pratice

Are you talking consciously or subconsciously? Because that bloke online that said he was sitting up straighter is actually an atheist, I believe. What I do know of him, he doesn't believe in energy healing, I don't think.

you don't know anything about him, and if you think "stting up straighter" means anything, then you are really in trouble...

That is what's best. Being open to the energy coming into your body and healing you of what's wrong. There's nothing wrong with that. However, there have been lots of people that don't come to me specifically for that and I find out there's something wrong in passing. I don't go around broadcasting that I can heal with energy. In fact, when people ask me about metaphysical things in real life, I proclaim being an atheist, that I don't believe in psychic powers or magick or an afterlife or anything else related to that stuff. For a time, I had considered trying to get a job at a energy healing place, since I have the master level attunement for reiki, but I chose to not do that.

because that wold mean declaring outright your intention, which sets up the possibiity of failure for you - if you've never been asked directly, it's easy to come up with the idea that you helped after the fact - just forget it, I'm getting tired of this (must be the energy you are projecting at me to get me all passified...)

And this is more evidence that I could help you better understand energy healing and how responsive energy is with the mind.

you are arrogant man - what makes you think that I a) want your "help" or b) that I even need it? dude, I think you need lots of help, but I couldn't give a hoot about whether you actually change your opinion or stop doing what you are "doing" - this whole thing is just a way of exposing to anyone who reads this what kinds of nutters are out there and how they operate!

So, that whole bit about Marx and Queensburries rules or whatever was unethical?

that's not a fight - that's a competitive venue, designed to provide entertainment; a "real" fight is when two guys in a parking lot mix it up because they want to maim each other, and will do whatever they can to win (like not actng ethically!)

So, the people that spread energy in the form of love and peace and hope and good tidings and feelings to help increase peace and harmony amongst large segments of people are sickeningly paternalistic?

no, because when they do this they simply express it without specific intent, and do not claim that because of it they are specifically healing someone with a real pathology;

If someone is knocked unconscious and dumped into a river to drown and someone jumps in to get them out, was what they did unethical when they rescued the one bonked on the head, even if they didn't have the legal right to aid in someone's health, like an EMT or an ER doc would?

as far as the good samaritan example, this is an extenuating circumstance, occuring where the rescued party is otherwise incapable of expressing their wishes; doesn't apply in your case

I'm not making generalizations. All pain meds inhibit the transmission of information from the pain nerves to the brain. Sometimes, they just lower the intensity of the level of pain the brain gets. But, that is what is happening. You are altering their mental and emotional states, regardless of which way they are being manipulated.

yes, but it is done with their consent before hand, in most cases, so they know what is being done to them;

Then, you are missing out on a more complete understanding of what's going on with energy healing, either by oneself or by someone else.

no, I've had a pretty "complete" understanding of it - that's why I'm out of it

It is crystal clear that you don't have a decent level of understanding of what's going on when it comes to energy healing. Your illusion is that you think you've got a good grasp on the subject. The choice is yours to retain the illusion.

thanks, I'll just stick with having a good grasp on reality instead...

ok, I really am done with this now