How Does One Defeat Gracie Jujistu ?

[Nick Forrer]

The way to use someones momentum when they shoot is to sprawl first (resist) and as they drive forward sit down (yield) and insert your hook (shin) on their inner thigh. Then kick up to sweep them over. Its a kind of elevator sweep. I used it in competition last year.

[David Jamieson]

Go for the flying Butt pliers and finish him with multple noogies and threat spits as you hold him down.

[1bad65]

Maybe you could do what the first guy to beat a BJJ Black Belt in MMA in the US did, Maurice Smith. He was a world champion kickboxer in the late 80s-early 90s. He was challenged by Royce Gracie. He looked at tape of Royce and declined, but he took up cross training wrestling and submission fighting with Frank Shamrock and T Kohsaka. About 2 years later, he asked Royce to fight, but Royce declined. So he went to Battlecade Extreme Fighting where he KO'd 'Conan' Silviera, a BJJ BB from Brazil, with a beautiful head kick.

[lkfmdc]

here is a good strategy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kbdhXmJtjQ

use the triple decker ****** wrecker, no one has an answer for the triple decker ****** wrecker

[RonH]

I wasn't aware that "hurts like hell" = capable of killing someone

Given that is nowhere close to what I have said or even implied, if you would actually show the effort to take the time and pay attention to what I have said, you would see how truly ridiculous such an accusation that is. Such errors in the future should be avoided to maintain credibility for your arguments, regardless of the topic.

I think the 'H' in RonH stands for 'Hypothetical,' 'Hysterical,' or 'Hilarious'

Such a remark shows how petty you are trying to be in 'shouting' (figuratively) down my position just because you don't like it.

yeah, let them really get some momentum going - don't try to use any sort of evasive footwork

Evasive footwork isn't always required.

someone who knows how to shoot correctly will not "lean forward" - they will drop their body by bending their knees, and if they do "lean forward", it's not going to be at 90 deg. to their pelvis - they will still maintain structure and relative alignment

and therefore, because they are not "leaning forward", the back of their neck will not be exposed (of course, they might shoot incorrectly, but that's not the issue

And, in that instance, you grab their head with one hand and pull it down, so you can put pressure on the back of their neck with the elbow of the opposing arm.

what does "upper" mean? and what if both their arms are at equal height?

Are you kidding? The upper arm. The spot on the higher limbs where the triceps and biceps are. Isn't it obvious?

what sort of footwork do you need to do to position yourself for this correctly?

If you're squared off with the opponent, you bring one foot back to use it to not only brace yourself and use the rebound pressure your foot is getting by pushing against the ground, but also to help push down the elbow of the opposite side of your body, the one going against the target's neck. How far it moves back depends on just how you want to press down on their neck, but often, it is tought and done with the foot, so that you have turned about 90 degrees to one side. There are other factors that determine just where the soon to be rear foot will be placed.

how exactly will it do this?

By using a combination of their momemtum that they've gained by coming at you, gravity on them when you push them down, gravity on you when you lower you body, the speed with which you drop your body, as well as where and in what direction you apply pressure to the back of their neck. In the move, the hand of the arm that isn't connected to the elbow pressing on the back of the neck will be holding the arm that will be scooped under by the hand of the arm that has the elbow that's pressing on the back of the target's neck.

what direction is the force going

There are different directions, depending on which force you're talking about. Gravity of the attacker, the direction you apply pressure to the back of the neck, etc.

what vertebra is it targeting specifically and what part of the vertebra will it frature?

That would depend on the placement of the elbow and in what direction you are applying the pressure, which can be in a straight line or in a circular path, using the flexibility of the neck to assist in that path taking.

and again, how do you know this will could break a neck "easily"?

For starters, the 'mini-leverage' effect, by bending the neck, so the bones, are pulled apart. Think of when you take a slinky in its cylindrical form and them, turn the 2 ends over, so that they are resting on a flat surface. In this analogy, each ring represents a neck bone. There is an increase in the distance between the top edges of the 2 rings at the top of the curved slinky.

Depending on just how the move is done, soft tissue tears can result from an overextension of the range of motion of the neck. Not only can there be damage to the muscles, but also the nerve tissue, which can result in paralysis, depending on just which nerves are damaged.

There is also the fact that adult bone is not like a child's. When you see x-rays of battered children, you'll notice that their bones are sometimes bent. This is because the catellige hasn't turned to bone, even though it seems like they have solid bones. There is more hard bone tissue proportionally in an adult bone than a child's, which means that it is more easily broken. It is the same reason why a weeping willow can survive stronger winds any other tree of similar thickness would break under. It bends, as the wind hits it, allowing the force of the wind to move it along.

have you ever tried it, or seen it done? (your "evidence" about 140 lbs of force, if it is correct, is still specific to a whiplash / MVA-related injury, the mechanics of which are completely different than what you propose)

If you mean tried to practice the move, yes. To understand what is involved, but without the intention of trying to hurt the other guy. Some will say to give your sparring partner pain, so they know what's going on. I don't do that. If you mean to try it to kill someone, I haven't done that.

have you ever hit someone in the side of the head with this before? do you know what happens to the "temple" (a very imprecise term) when someone clenches their jaw, which typically happens at the same time they re resisting having their neck manipulated?

Yes and yes.

[unkokusai]

If you mean tried to practice the move, yes. .

Against whom?

[lkfmdc]

People like RonH are a joke, pure and simple, never fight for real, sput their "theory" and don't listen to those who have been there, done that

Here's an attached pic, WKA amateur rules strangely allow downward elbows.... guess what? They did NOTHING....

[lkfmdc]

sorry, see attached pic

[RonH]

Against whom?

Sparring partners.

People like RonH are a joke, pure and simple, never fight for real, sput their "theory" and don't listen to those who have been there, done that

Here's an attached pic, WKA amateur rules strangely allow downward elbows.... guess what? They did NOTHING....

So, you've switched from ignoring my posts to complaining about them. Really, you do need to pick what you're gonna do. Either stay in the peanut gallery, moaning and complaining without producing any substantial counterargument or you're gonna step up to the plate.

I'll start it off and we'll see what you do.

My stance comes down to the basic idea that it isn't the technique, but the user, which determines whether or not a move is effective.

There it is. For you to actually step up to the plate, it'd required explaining why what I've said so far is incorrect. This is for any of the medicine, any of the physics, even the idea that it is the user and not the technique itself, as the basis for the stance I have presented.

Last time, I wrote to you, I did say that I wouldn't believe that you could have been mature without prompting and you showed you didn't want to be. You made it clear you were ignorning me. I'm a betting man. I'd lay odds that you can't do it with me.

[lkfmdc]

My stance comes down to the basic idea that it isn't the technique, but the user, which determines whether or not a move is effective.

Like I said, you're a JOKE, theoretical fighting

I just showed you that your deadly elbow strikes actually do NOTHING under real conditions, I guess that leaves you with your CHI BLASTS as "plan B"

People like you are disgusting, they are the reaon no one takes CMA seriously anymore.....

I told another moron that as an idiot he was a master, I guess you are his si-gung

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I allways thought the elbow idea didn't make sense. You are trying to stop a powerful incoming, charging force by dropping an elbow? by the time you are close enough to do it the attacker will have your center and thus negate your ability to generate any effective power with an elbow strike. You would have to have 8 foot long arms to make it work...so you can hit them, before they take your center.

If it's clear to even a Qi Gong/ Forms guy like me, how is it so hard for others to understand?

[TenTigers]

the reason deadly downward elbows don't seem to work against someone shooting, is simple. From that position, you are not throwing an elbow at all,(you only think you are) what you are doing is striking (or attempting to) with the bottom of your upper arm-or yuor tricep. This does absolutely nothing. It is extremely difficult, I'd venture to say impossible to do the downward elbow strike with any effectiveness against the shoot.
For me, I sprawl, and get my hooks under, rather than trying to go from on top.
-but I'm not a great rassler, so I differ to the guys with the experience.

[1bad65]

My stance comes down to the basic idea that it isn't the technique, but the user, which determines whether or not a move is effective.

Like it or not, this does show that you don't train 'alive'. Alot of techniques work in theory and just do not work in practice.

If it's clear to even a Qi Gong/ Forms guy like me, how is it so hard for others to understand?

Denial is a powerful thing.

[1bad65]

For me, I sprawl, and get my hooks under, rather than trying to go from on top.
-but I'm not a great rassler, so I differ to the guys with the experience.

I'd be willing to bet you are alot harder to take down than the deadly elbow strike types.

[RonH]

Like I said, you're a JOKE, theoretical fighting

I just showed you that your deadly elbow strikes actually do NOTHING under real conditions, I guess that leaves you with your CHI BLASTS as "plan B"

People like you are disgusting, they are the reaon no one takes CMA seriously anymore.....

I told another moron that as an idiot he was a master, I guess you are his si-gung

Oh, lord. Look, who cares about some tournament crap about elbows. I'm speaking of technique application. You've had plenty of chances to show what I've said is wrong (the medicine or the physics), but since you don't want to do that, I have no choice but to declare me the winner (for lack of a better word) because you lost via forfeiting.

Because you are unable to willingly conduct yourself in the proper manner, I am done speaking to you about this topic.