Disadvantages of sparring?

[nschmelzer]

Terence Niehoff's perspective is based on his understanding of the martial arts as a sport. He is embarrassed by those that might also consider martial arts a form of meditation, and/or lifestyle, and/or code of conduct, and/or a form of self-expression, and/or anything other than a sport.

Terence seems incapable of appreciating martial arts as anything other than a sporting activity. In fact, he is hostile to any notion that martials arts is anything other than a sporting acitvity. He is like a rabid atheist - embarrassed by the faith of others and hostile to the concept of a God, and incapable to appreciating or respecting the faith of others (including others that might be as smart or talented as he is).

For me, martial arts is more than just sport. It is an activity that challenges my fears, channels my energy, improves my health (physcial and mental), and gives me philosophical perspective (e.g., Chan). I am sure this embarasses Terence. It embarasses a lot of people that "don't get it."

Terence expresses his perspective. I express mine. You express yours. I don't worry about the martial arts = sports types like Terence. It only makes what I have more valuable to me.

[JPinAZ]

No, that's not what I've said. What I did say is that traditional training (alone) won't produce good results (develop good fighting skills). And that everyone in TMAs who has developed good fighting skills did so by doing modern functional training (like Alan traiing with Eddie Millis at the Shark Tank). That the traditional training model is a really poor way to learn/train.

It's not the art, it is how a person trains that is primary.

Moreover, someone who can't do it -- like guys who are traditionally trained (and givethemselves titles) -- don't really know it.

BS. total BS. This is not what you've said time and again. You've said WCK produces no real fighters. You've said WCK cannot produce any high level fighters. And you ares saying pretty much the same thing above. I don't really have the energy or desire to pull up the old quotes, but you are so full of sh!t. And I've called you on it over and over and you've ignored it each time.

You know, I've seen Alan's videos, and he does a fair amount of what one might call WC training in them. I've even seen him doing chi sau. Do you say that he is wasting his time?
Hell, he even sells WC training videos, are you saying that it's a waste of his time and he should just practice what Eddie Mills teaches only and give up the WC? Are you saying no one should buy these videos, since it's just traditional crap and you can't gain any real skills from them???? Great way to support your sihing AND the system he obviously finds benifits his training and highly promotes... (or maybe you are right and it's all traditional crap?)

Same with Dave M. I've seen him chi sau. Waste of time as well? And I'm not making any judgements, you are, so just getting your perspective on this

Does your own sifu do these things (train 'traditional crap' like WC)? Are you saying that none of these guys have any skill as a result, they are wasting their time and only have skill if they've trained something else BESIDES WC? Are you saying that since WC can produce no good-level fighters that your own sifu has no fighting skill as a result of his wc training? I'm curious if they share your same views.

Regarding 'titles', do you call your sifu 'sifu', or robert when you see him? Do you call judges in the court room by their first name or Mr. Smith, or do you use a well-respected, well-earned title? Do you call your mother/father by their first name?
Yeah, you're right, it's all a joke right? It's a sign of respect, dumba$$. Something you don't have - respect.

[sanjuro_ronin]

No, that's not what I've said. What I did say is that traditional training (alone) won't produce good results (develop good fighting skills). And that everyone in TMAs who has developed good fighting skills did so by doing modern functional training (like Alan traiing with Eddie Millis at the Shark Tank). That the traditional training model is a really poor way to learn/train.

It's not the art, it is how a person trains that is primary.

Moreover, someone who can't do it -- like guys who are traditionally trained (and givethemselves titles) -- don't really know it.

The only part in this post that is incorrect is your assumption of what traditonal training is.
Randori is traditional training (from the Kito-ryu to name just one)
The full contact sparring of kyokushin is traditional.
Boxing's hard contact/ful contact training is old and timeworn.
Wrestlings "rolling" is as old as modern civilazation.

These are all, traditional training methods.

[YungChun]

These are all, traditional training methods.

NO NO...

DOES NOT COMPUTE....

ERROR.. ERROR..

E R R O R....

BUZZZZZZZZZ!

LOL

[gabe]

Your problem is you think TMA is only about forms, static drills, idolizing instructors, watching kung fu movies, and dreaming of jumping over walls, etc... As sanjoro pointed out, that is a skewed view of TMA, and as far as I can tell, 99% of the people here don't think that, but you keep harping on it, and lumping us all into that group (ya ya I know, I'm brainwashed and don't see it, even in myself, lol). If you didn't do that, then you would have little problems here getting along, but as I already know you have no concerns about getting along.

Fight, fight, fight, all out, all the time, don't worry about the mindset or the emotions of kicking someone's butt, just train, hard, long, everyday, injured or uninjured, it doesn't matter, train train train, even though you won't have to use the skills ever, continue to train, hard, with intensity, always, bla bla bla....That is your bannter, but that is not the way for all of us.

The funniest thing is, no one here is claiming they are supreme fighters, nor are they claiming what they are doing is supreme as well (you even claim to be a s h i t t y fighter, all the while participating in the things you advocate). All we are ever really saying is that we enjoy training in Wing Chun, we find it effective, we realize that there are other arts out there as well that are effective too, we all have room for improvement. You keep on saying that people that make claims have to be told they are wrong, hypocritical, being mislead, but WHO'S MAKING CLAIMS??? I think it is all in your head, that you have an emotional, psychological need to post what you do, otherwise why repeat it everyday the same over and over again, making yourself look like an imbecile at times?

James

He is at war with the strawman he created. When you folks bring up specific examples that refute him, he redirects to his strawman. Unless you neatly fit within the strawman, you should disregard whatever he says. And remember he is really doing all this purely for the betterment of wing chun, to help us see the light. So you gotta love him!

[t_niehoff]

Terence Niehoff's perspective is based on his understanding of the martial arts as a sport. He is embarrassed by those that might also consider martial arts a form of meditation, and/or lifestyle, and/or code of conduct, and/or a form of self-expression, and/or anything other than a sport.

Terence seems incapable of appreciating martial arts as anything other than a sporting activity. In fact, he is hostile to any notion that martials arts is anything other than a sporting acitvity. He is like a rabid atheist - embarrassed by the faith of others and hostile to the concept of a God, and incapable to appreciating or respecting the faith of others (including others that might be as smart or talented as he is).

For me, martial arts is more than just sport. It is an activity that challenges my fears, channels my energy, improves my health (physcial and mental), and gives me philosophical perspective (e.g., Chan). I am sure this embarasses Terence. It embarasses a lot of people that "don't get it."

Terence expresses his perspective. I express mine. You express yours. I don't worry about the martial arts = sports types like Terence. It only makes what I have more valuable to me.

Oh, I "get it." I just reject it as silly.

And it's not that I see martial arts as sport -- just that we, as human beings, only learn and develop to a significant degree open motor skills, which include open skill sports like tennis, boxing, wrestling, and WCK (or any martial art), through the same process.

When I hear people say things like WCK "challenges my fears, channels my energy, improves my health (physcial and mental)", I wonder -- how is this unlike sport? Isn't that what sports do too? And without all the associated BS.

Like the "philosophical perspective" and "meditation." If someone wants that stuff, they don't need martial art for it. And there is no evidence that it in any way helps develop martial art skill (funny how all the world's best fighters seem to do fine without the Ch'an). But, as I said, if you want that stuff, that's fine with me. Just like if you want to role play, that's fine with me. But none of that has really anything to do with developing martial art skill. And, quite frankly, what makes you believe your "grandmaster" has any more "skill" or understanding of these things than he has of WCK (fighting)? Again, just more belief structure.

And that's the essence of TMA -- it's all belief structure, founded on fantasy. Does it have some good technical elements? Of course. Just as traditional japanese jiujitsu had some good technical elements. But when was the last time a TJJ guy won a grappling tournament?

[t_niehoff]

The only part in this post that is incorrect is your assumption of what traditonal training is.
Randori is traditional training (from the Kito-ryu to name just one)
The full contact sparring of kyokushin is traditional.
Boxing's hard contact/ful contact training is old and timeworn.
Wrestlings "rolling" is as old as modern civilazation.

These are all, traditional training methods.

Once again, you don't see the forest for the trees. Certainly we can point to single instances of "good" stuff in traditional martial arts. It's just that the underlying training process as a whole is fundamentally flawed.

It's true traditional jiujitsu had randori. OK, when was the last time someone from a traditional japanese jiujitsu style won a 'major' graplling competition (against wrestlers, judoka, BJJ, sambo -- the functionally-trained guys)? Yeah, exactly. And that's because it isn't that single element, but their overall training process that is flawed.

Modern arts have taken those useful elements and put them into the open skill learning/training process that develops functional skills.

[YungChun]

japanese jiujitsu style won a 'major' graplling competition (against wrestlers, judoka, BJJ, sambo

According to that sample 4 out of 5 TMA's ROCK! LOL

[sanjuro_ronin]

Once again, you don't see the forest for the trees. Certainly we can point to single instances of "good" stuff in traditional martial arts. It's just that the underlying training process as a whole is fundamentally flawed.

Which " underlying training process as a whole is fundamentally flawed" ?
And keep my tree hugging out of this

It's true traditional jiujitsu had randori. OK, when was the last time someone from a traditional japanese jiujitsu style won a 'major' graplling competition (against wrestlers, judoka, BJJ, sambo -- the functionally-trained guys)? Yeah, exactly. And that's because it isn't that single element, but their overall training process that is flawed.

I don't recall any, reason being that many ( I can't say all) TJJJ systems have decided to go against full on Randori, why? I don't know.
The rest of them "became" judo.
Even Kosen calls itself "kosen judo" and I don't recall anyone from there winning any grappling tournaments either, and their training is as functional as kodokan Judo.

Modern arts have taken those useful elements and put them into the open skill learning/training process that develops functional skills.

Quite correct and we are all the better for it, glad they returned to their "roots".

[t_niehoff]

BS. total BS. This is not what you've said time and again. You've said WCK produces no real fighters. You've said WCK cannot produce any high level fighters. And you ares saying pretty much the same thing above. I don't really have the energy or desire to pull up the old quotes, but you are so full of sh!t. And I've called you on it over and over and you've ignored it each time.

Go find that in my posts. I said there aren't any high level fighters in WCK, and that is true. Is there someone at Chuck's, Randy's, Fedor's, etc. level in WCK? I haven't seen it.

But clearly some people have developed good, competant skills, like Alan and his guys.

You know, I've seen Alan's videos, and he does a fair amount of what one might call WC training in them. I've even seen him doing chi sau. Do you say that he is wasting his time?

No, as I have said before, unrealistic exercises like chi sao can be useful (though you don't need them and personally I think they are more trouble than they are worth) in *learning* or *teaching* skills -- because it is very difficult to elarn or teach skills in a sparring environment (since you can't focus easily on the new skill because so much else is going on). But, unrealistic exercises will never develop realistic skills. They can't.

Hell, he even sells WC training videos, are you saying that it's a waste of his time and he should just practice what Eddie Mills teaches only and give up the WC? Are you saying no one should buy these videos, since it's just traditional crap and you can't gain any real skills from them???? Great way to support your sihing AND the system he obviously finds benifits his training and highly promotes... (or maybe you are right and it's all traditional crap?)

It's not crap if he can do it in fighting against competant people. It's crap when you teach anti-grappling that you can't do yourself against competant people.

Same with Dave M. I've seen him chi sau. Waste of time as well? And I'm not making any judgements, you are, so just getting your perspective on this

No, same asnwer as above. And Dave, like Alan, has been training with good MMAists to make his WCK functional.

Does your own sifu do these things (train 'traditional crap' like WC)? Are you saying that none of these guys have any skill as a result, they are wasting their time and only have skill if they've trained something else BESIDES WC? Are you saying that since WC can produce no good-level fighters that your own sifu has no fighting skill as a result of his wc training? I'm curious if they share your same views.

See above. I'm saying that tradtitional training doesn't produce good results, significant gains in fighting skills. That the traditional learning model is fundamentally flawed. That tose people who get good in WCK, do so by and through their functional training, by sparring with good fighters (going to MMA gyms and traiing with those guys). That's it in a nutshell: you are only as good as the amount of time you've spent in quality sparring. Alan, Dave, and I'm sure many others that have spent that time, and did so trying to make their WCK tools work, develop functional skill. Those that don't do that, don't.

Regarding 'titles', do you call your sifu 'sifu', or robert when you see him? Do you call judges in the court room by their first name or Mr. Smith, or do you use a well-respected, well-earned title? Do you call your mother/father by their first name?
Yeah, you're right, it's all a joke right? It's a sign of respect, dumba$$. Something you don't have - respect.

I call Robert by his name. We're friends. He's not my father.

As far as earning a title, what title has any WCK grandmaster earned? How in the hell did they earn it? Not by proving they have any skill certainly! They just open a school in some store front and start calling themself "grandmaster." I guess they earn it the old-fashioned way: teach fantasy-fu.

[unkokusai]

For me, martial arts is more than just sport. It is an activity that challenges my fears, channels my energy, improves my health (physcial and mental), and gives me philosophical perspective .

Um yeah, but can't you get all those benefits from sport (perhaps even more so)?

[t_niehoff]

Which " underlying training process as a whole is fundamentally flawed" ?
And keep my tree hugging out of this

If you look at all TMAs, they share a similar training process -- forms, highly stylized techniques, unrealsitic drills, a "conceptual" framework (lots of theory of how someone "should" fight), etc. taught by people who can't really make that method work to any significant degree themselves. It goes about things ass-backwards in large part. For example, it isn't evidence-based (these things work in fighting and we've seen it work) but theory-based (this should work and here's why). Etc.

Functional training methods, in contrast, are based on the specificity principle of motor skill, recognizing that fighting skills come from fighting, that you learn to box and get better at boxing by boxing, learn to wrestle and get better at wrestling by wrestling, etc. And so, the focus of training is on doing the activity itself to develop skill in the activity. Sparring, doing the activity, becomes the core of the training. And because you do the activity, your results doing that become your guide. In functional arts, application (doing it) is your sifu.

I don't recall any, reason being that many ( I can't say all) TJJJ systems have decided to go against full on Randori, why? I don't know.
The rest of them "became" judo.
Even Kosen calls itself "kosen judo" and I don't recall anyone from there winning any grappling tournaments either, and their training is as functional as kodokan Judo.

Of course they haven't won any -- because how they train doesn't develop higher level skills.

They didn't "become" judo -- they either still existor died out. Kano took some elements and dropped the traditional training model and mindset, and adopted the more modern training model.

Quite correct and we are all the better for it, glad they returned to their "roots".

All knowledge builds on the past. This is called growth. It is not a "return" to their "roots", it is a part of the evolution, growth of martial arts. Judo didn't "return to its roots", it evolved. Boxing has evolved. Wrestling has evolved. Sambo has evolved. They are driven by results obtained in doing the activity itself.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you look at all TMAs, they share a similar training process -- forms, highly stylized techniques, unrealsitic drills, a "conceptual" framework (lots of theory of how someone "should" fight), etc. taught by people who can't really make that method work to any significant degree themselves. It goes about things ass-backwards in large part. For example, it isn't evidence-based (these things work in fighting and we've seen it work) but theory-based (this should work and here's why). Etc.

Not ALL but the MAJORITY, yes, that is a major problem.

Functional training methods, in contrast, are based on the specificity principle of motor skill, recognizing that fighting skills come from fighting, that you learn to box and get better at boxing by boxing, learn to wrestle and get better at wrestling by wrestling, etc. And so, the focus of training is on doing the activity itself to develop skill in the activity. Sparring, doing the activity, becomes the core of the training. And because you do the activity, your results doing that become your guide. In functional arts, application (doing it) is your sifu.

Correct and somewhere along the way, many TMA forgot this, not doubt.
Glad the TMA of Boxing, judo and wrestling for example, didn't.

Of course they haven't won any -- because how they train doesn't develop higher level skills.

They didn't "become" judo -- they either still existor died out. Kano took some elements and dropped the traditional training model and mindset, and adopted the more modern training model.

Have you seen Kosen Judo and how it is trained?
Judo "gobbled up" quite a few ryu of JJ.
And what "traditional elements" of the Kito and the Tenjinshinho-ryu did Kano drop ?
Randori came from the Kito, the focus on chokes and subs from the Tenjin shinyo ryu.

All knowledge builds on the past. This is called growth. It is not a "return" to their "roots", it is a part of the evolution, growth of martial arts. Judo didn't "return to its roots", it evolved. Boxing has evolved. Wrestling has evolved. Sambo has evolved. They are driven by results obtained in doing the activity itself.

Agreed that what has happened and is happening in MA is an evolution of sorts, but look at judo for example, how the pre-war judo was more newaza and submission based and how that changed and how that changed and how it is changing again to more of the "pre-war" type, stepping back to go forward in many regards.

[YungChun]

changing again to more of the "pre-war" type, stepping back to go forward in many regards.

IMO -- from fighting to non fighting back to fighting..

I see it as a second coming, a re-evolution, where IMO over the next decades you'll see the arts come full circle...where CQC will dominate..

[unkokusai]

If you look at all TMAs, they share a similar training process -- forms, highly stylized techniques, unrealsitic drills, a "conceptual" framework (lots of theory of how someone "should" fight), etc. taught by people who can't really make that method work to any significant degree themselves. It goes about things ass-backwards in large part. For example, it isn't evidence-based (these things work in fighting and we've seen it work) but theory-based (this should work and here's why). Etc. .

Oh, so you're just trolling. I see.