Translating Wing Chun training into Fighting

[Knifefighter]

According to THIS post, I don't need to give out the info you requested in the earlier one since, according to you:Real world athletic endeavors (including fighting) = 90% doing/5% theorizing.

Again, look up the names I gave you of MY coaches and see what THEY have done.

If they are teaching their runners breathing cadences, they are simply teaching them something that would be developed naturally through running practice.

[jesper]

Ofcourse you need to test your theory, otherwise your deluting yourself and more importantly your students.

My problem with many in the MMA community is that they keep telling me that if I dont go into a sports ring or do a youtube video, then I dont know what im talking about.
Lots of people dont have the desire to be famous or showoff, so they spar privately and often with many different styles to see how they fare. Does that make them any less able to fight

Same with the socalled Traditional approach.
I was taught both in WT and MT that the traditional way is to go out and see if what you have been taught actually works.

Sadly though it seems that for the last 30-40 years many people have stopped sparring and instead come up with lots of assumptions about how things are suppose to be. Somehow that has become synonymus with the traditional way.

Dont know about the rest of the world but here in denmark WT was infamous because our teacher told us to go out and test what was being told, so we went to many schools and told them to show us their stuff and also spar them when possible.
Much like MMA is doing today, but I must say, generally with a more humble approach since we also quickly learned that the really good instructors generally didnt want to talk to you or share information if you started by calling them names

Heh just remembered a time I went to see an instructor who wanted to demonstrate a technic on me.
When he said, if I hit you like this you will counter with ?? so I am open to do XX (sorry dont remember names).
I just said, no I wont. If you hit me like this I will pull my gun and shoot you. He just didnt get the message I was trying to tell him
People who have sparred or fought alot will understand my analogy im sure.

[planetwc]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernando_Mamede

And since you asked who taught me how about that stuff, look up Carlos Lopes and Fernando Mamede.

[anerlich]

Long term analysis conducted by Jack Daniels

I've conducted a fairly long term analysis of Jack Daniels myself.

do a youtube video

I would have thought that after the recent TMA vs MMA "event" captured on video and all over several MA forums, people would start stearing clear of such things. The unbelievers see what they want anyway. There was even one TMAer who thought that Springer came close to killing Osiris while he was getting his head pounded into the pavement.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernando_Mamede

That is one of them, though Carlos was better, much better teacher too.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If they are teaching their runners breathing cadences, they are simply teaching them something that would be developed naturally through running practice.

Well yes, that is one way to look at it, no one teaches how to breathe UNNATURALLY.
And over time anything trained becomes natural.
I personally have not met any Kenyan coach, but a friend of mine at York University has and he says they teach specific breathing methods to their runners, perhaps due to high altitude.
No I didn't ask him which ones, it wasn't something the interested me at the time, though looking back now, I should have.

In regards to what I DO or don't, I try not to use myself as an example, wither good or bad , for many reasons, no man is an island and I know of many that suceed dispite of what they do, not because of it, so to site what I have done really means very little.
Besides, its all ancient history for me anyways so its not really relevant to the now.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Trying to get back on topic, since I helped derail it a bit, If you don't teat what you learn and are taught, you will never know if it works for YOU.

There are many tried and true theories that pan out almost 100% of the time, but you still have to put them to the test for YOU.

Assuming they work because A,B,C and D made it work ignores the fact they they MADE it work.
And the only way to MAKE somethign work is to train it as close to the context in which you want/need it to work.

That means fighting, or sparring if you prefer, it also means competition.

[YungChun]

Many martial arts traditional or otherwise teach breathing of various kinds.. Most students do not naturally use the breath correctly in fighting. Coach Scott Sonnon is big in this area and coaches folks from a variety of arts and he also competes <and wins> in reality based fighting venues.

Some of the problems with Wing Chun folks is that they:

1. Rarely apply power in their moves.. This has a ripple effect that changes how everything works, or doesn't work--distancing, power, mechanics, follow-up, control, all go out the window. Training moves with no contact or very light contact is like training a disease.. It may have a place in a demo or with someone you don't know, etc, but for training it's really bad news.

2. Spend too much time training *in contact* or in bridge range.. Tactile sensitivity is at the core of the system, yet in real fighting one must start and be comfortable in no contact range--the outside... To learn how to enter and fight starting from no contact one must train visual sensitivity in order to enter and fight from no contact ranges... Too many WCK folks don't do this realistically or at all.

3. Train against unrealistic attacks.. Like in some Aikido, the "attacker" stands there with their fist extended waiting for the "defender" to execute their ferocious "counters" to the "attack".. The end result is training to counter a punch that never existed, from too far away and with no power, against no real resistance.. Bad news again...

4. Train only against other WCK people doing exactly the same things <wrong> that they are.. <see above>...

5. Talk about the concepts of the system yet don’t follow them in training and never actually apply them in a realistic manner against resisting opponents..

6. Are not familiar with the limitations of Chi Sao as a training drill and try to “win” any which way they can. This results in lessons that are never learned and therefore can never translate to application.

7. Have no fighting experience or sparring experience coming in to the art or while training the art and so have no realistic reference point to gauge what they are training and learning..

[sanjuro_ronin]

All 7 points can be found in many systems, not just WC, that tend to "stick to their own" and forget that CONTACT must be made for training to be real.

The degree of contact is a point of contention for some, case in point Terrance advocating full contact, high intensity training all the time.
While REGULAR hard contact is a must and full contact is need to be done as much as one can PERSONALLY stand it, contact of the degree that cause the opponent to react in a TRUE and HONEST manner, MUST be done everytime one fights/spars.

All "ranges" must be addressed and, if you preach "realisim", practical edged and impact weapons must be addressed.

[t_niehoff]

All 7 points can be found in many systems, not just WC, that tend to "stick to their own" and forget that CONTACT must be made for training to be real.

The degree of contact is a point of contention for some, case in point Terrance advocating full contact, high intensity training all the time.

Stop misquoting me.

Let me try one more time to explain this in as simple as terms as I can.

When people really fight, they are going to be hard-pressed: both opponent's will be moving/acting at 100% speed/power/intensity, really trying to put the hurt on the other. It's in that environment that we need to be able to operate. Our body is limited in how it can move (and the things it can do), react, respond, etc. at that intensity (or even be ready to move at that intensity). So to practice mechanics, ways of moving, techniques, tactics, etc. that will fail at 100% is pointless. Doing that is just training to fail. Most of what I see in WCK circles is just training to fail.

So you need to begin with that environment -- seeing for yourself how your body can really move in that environment, how you can move at 100% (your fighting intensity) while your opponent is too, etc. The only way to do that is to work in that environment, to spar at 100%. Lots of stuff sounds great, looks great, can be demonstrated at lower intensities ("internal power", etc.) but when the sh1t hits the fan, and the intensity goes to 100%, all of that stuff fails. The silly theory fails. This is why the Dog Brothers are right -- if you see it taught, you need to first see it fought. You need to see that it works at 100% -- and not down the line, in the future, etc. but before you even do it, before you waste your time practicing it, etc. If we used that standard in WCK, most people would be teaching very little.

You don't need to spar 100% "all the time" and that's not all you do (or even can do). But that is at the core of everything you do. When it isn't the core of what you do, unrealistic things begin to creep in to your game. Unrealistic practice breeds unrealistic nonsense. If all you do and have ever done is unrealistic practice - chi sao, kiu sao, light sparring, etc. - you only develop the ability to do unrealistic things in unrealistic environments. And you become a WCK master.

How you train is how you will act. Our bodies are naturally lazy -- they will find the easiest (most efficient) way of doing something and will adjust how it does things to the load placed on it. If you don't regularly and routinely work under that load, you will not - and cannot - develop the ability to work well under that load. Theoretical nonfighters like to believe that they can pactice at lower intensities and then "step it up" should they ever really need to do it. That won't work. That is training to fail.

While REGULAR hard contact is a must and full contact is need to be done as much as one can PERSONALLY stand it, contact of the degree that cause the opponent to react in a TRUE and HONEST manner, MUST be done everytime one fights/spars.

All "ranges" must be addressed and, if you preach "realisim", practical edged and impact weapons must be addressed.

A person can't react in a "TRUE and HONEST" manner to movements/attacks/etc. that are not genuinely true and honest (as a person would really throw them in a fight). You will act differently when I am really trying to knock your head off and when I am just throwing a zippy punch. This is just natural and it can't be over-ridden. It's hard-wired in us. In fact, you can't even move in a true and honest way unless you are moving at 100% -- as your body will move differently at lower intensitities.

You see, what you want to do is always train consistently, so that you body is always moving, reacting, etc. as it would at 100%. But, when we aren't at 100%, our bodies will naturally move, react, etc. differently. The mechanics may be close, but they will be different. You can't run with the same mechanics at 100% and at 50% -- the intensity changes the mechanics (the motor program).

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes they do. They train longer, harder, put themselves under more stress, more difficult situations, etc. As Mike Tyson said, "fighting is the easy part, it's the training that is hard."

Here you suggest that Pro fighters train and spar 100% ALL the time.
This was a response to my post stating that they DON'T train 100% all the time, but they do cycle it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A person can't react in a "TRUE and HONEST" manner to movements/attacks/etc. that are not genuinely true and honest (as a person would really throw them in a fight). You will act differently when I am really trying to knock your head off and when I am just throwing a zippy punch. This is just natural and it can't be over-ridden. It's hard-wired in us. In fact, you can't even move in a true and honest way unless you are moving at 100% -- as your body will move differently at lower intensitities.

I am not arguing that, I am arguing you saying that it has to be done ALL the time.
It doesn't.
Scrimmage in Pro Football for example.

Look at the "ultimate fighter" show, they go all out all the time?
No.
The injury ratio would be to high.

[t_niehoff]

Here you suggest that Pro fighters train and spar 100% ALL the time.
This was a response to my post stating that they DON'T train 100% all the time, but they do cycle it.

No -- I am saying exactly what Tyson is saying: the training itself (to be successful) needs to be harder than the competition. Ali and Rickson have said the same thing. You win the fight in the gym, not the ring (or the street).

[t_niehoff]

I am not arguing that, I am arguing you saying that it has to be done ALL the time.
It doesn't.
Scrimmage in Pro Football for example.

Look at the "ultimate fighter" show, they go all out all the time?
No.
The injury ratio would be to high.

People can do limited amounts of lower intensity sparring to, for example, work on certain things -- provided they do lots of high intensity sparring.

Pro football players *know* what works and doesn't work at high intensity, know how their bodies best function at full intensity, etc. because they do much of their training and playing at that level. So do all good athletes, regardless of their sport/activity. If they want to practice new plays, new moves, etc. they can lower the intensity. But then they need to practice it at full intensity to make it work.

I see amatuer and pro MMA fighters train for myself. I have seen pro boxers train for myself. What I am saying is that if a person wants to develop good fighting skills, look to good fighters and train good fighters -- and do what they do (not what you believe they do based on TV shows). That's a simple recipe for success. The recipe for failure is to follow the advice of people who aren't good fighters and haven't trained good fighters. Go seek out the experts for yourself and see for yourself. That's what I've done. If someone has different experiences, so be it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

People can do limited amounts of lower intensity sparring to, for example, work on certain things -- provided they do lots of high intensity sparring.

Pro football players *know* what works and doesn't work at high intensity, know how their bodies best function at full intensity, etc. because they do much of their training and playing at that level. So do all good athletes, regardless of their sport/activity. If they want to practice new plays, new moves, etc. they can lower the intensity. But then they need to practice it at full intensity to make it work.

I see amatuer and pro MMA fighters train for myself. I have seen pro boxers train for myself. What I am saying is that if a person wants to develop good fighting skills, look to good fighters and train good fighters -- and do what they do (not what you believe they do based on TV shows). That's a simple recipe for success. The recipe for failure is to follow the advice of people who aren't good fighters and haven't trained good fighters. Go seek out the experts for yourself and see for yourself. That's what I've done. If someone has different experiences, so be it.

Bro, I boxed at Sully's gym in toronto.
I have not only seen pro's train, but some of the best.
The cycle their intensity coming into a match, this is common place.
6-8 weeks depending on their schedule.
Some even take out sparring in the last week/few days before a match, or make sure its as "risk free" as can be.

If you Google Sully's Gym you can see some of the fighters that have past through there.
heck, do a search on youtube and you can see pro boxers training for fights and make not thet they do NOT go full intensity all the time.

Its just not done at the level were one shot can cause postponment of a fight due to injury.