Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[ricardocameron]

The title addresses the existance of God not who or what God is. KC

Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.
Thomas Jefferson

[BoulderDawg]

Whatever happened to that guy from the Netherlands that was suppose to show us all these pictures of Master Ie?

He showed us two pictures of two different people and then left the board!

[Sal Canzonieri]

Alright, in the interest of making this thread run onto 300 pages ASAP , I'm interested to know some of the tales that surround our forms. I'm a literary man, so it's kind of a thing I'm interested in, plus I love Chinese literature....

For instance: Hai Lun Chong=the Monkey King rampaging through the Eastern Sea Dragon's kingdom in Journey to the West.

In the form, concerning animal attidues, etc., you flip around and whirl a lot like a monkey thrashing through a kingdom would, have that cool kneeling stance with a side hand extended and the eyebrow-stick over the shoulder, and that downward strip which hits the ground in a monkey stance in full grip. Although it's not typically considered a monkey form, I do consider it to be one based on its structure. Hell, you're using an eyebrow-height-staff.....and the form refers to the time where he obtained the staff for the first time (while he was squatting in the king's chambers and making general mischief)....

I was sifting through some old SD threads (man, "work" is boring), and found some discussion about translation of SD forms, etc:



The discussion concerned the translation of "Jingang" from Jingang fu hu chien.....and Gene posted a link to a WuSong article, because apparently ATL sometimes calls the form "Wu Song defeats the Tiger."

Quotations from the article: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/maga...hp?article=237

"In the novel (Water Margin), Wu Song has finished a special mission and passed by a small village (Mount Jinyang) on the way to visit his brother. He reads a notice warning travelers to avoid going out after sunset because of a big, man-eating tiger in the surrounding woods. The villagers are terrified and refuse to leave their homes at night.

For the safety of the people, Wu Song decides to kill the tiger himself. After drinking three bowls of wine, he went in search of the tiger with his staff. When the tiger leaped out at him in the woods the staff broke, and Wu Song grabbed the neck of the tiger. Finally, he killed it with his bare hands. One might also read the battle with a man-eating tiger as a political allegory."

Well, "Jinyang" is pretty much the same flavor as "Jingang", so this would mark a link between this form and the Water Margin. And at the very end of the form, you have that elbow followed by a face rake, neck grab, then the smashing of the face on the knee....kind of imitating grabbing a tiger by the neck and killing it with the knee....which summarily ends up closing the form pretty much, aside from the salute.

Jingang, as anyone that understands Chinese and even if they don't, as anyone that knows classic Shaolin terminology, means nothing of the sort that you wrote above, instead please see that jingang means:

Vajra in the original indian it was translated from, and in Chinese it means "Diamond" or "hard metal" (when you add Jin (gold) with gang (tough or firm, gang also means Chop, and there is a distinctive chopping move in the style).

The Jingang were four warrior attendants (bodyguards) for the Buddha.

Jingang forms were developed at Shaolin (or associated with Shaolin at least) during the Song and Yuan Dynasties.

One Jingang lineage is supposed to have originated in the Song Dynasty, over 1100 years ago. It is a military heritage developed by Yu Hua Long. In the Ming dynasty his descendant Yu Xian was the Minister of Military Affairs. His son, You Shen Xing, was one of the Crown Prince's instructors. The family has had many well known and respected instructors.

The other Jingang lineage is from the Yuan Dynasty, and it is from Abbott Fu Ju's efforts. This Jingang style still practiced in Shaolin with a set of 10 forms. It was originally created to aid elderly monks to continue to practice Chan meditation through martial practice, Jin Gang Quan employs slow movements in unison with breathing and stretching to circulate internal energy (Qi) through the body, improving the practitioner’s overall health.

The eagle claw movements come originally from this Shaolin Jingang quan, which they often called their forms Eagle Claw (Ying Zhao) Vajra Quan.

Jingang quan is very advanced and not easy to do at all.

[Shaolin Wookie]

But there's never consensus on how SD/CSC forms are translated. Jingang does "sound" like Jinyang. My teachers said the form was called: "Golden Tiger descends the mountain." It's a tiger form. Some apparently call the form "Wu Song defeats the tiger," so maybe they mistranslated Jingang as Jinyang, and saw the connection between Wu Song and this tiger form. Or maybe both translations are correct. I'm looking for "inside SD" guys' opinions on this, as they've been around a long time, and have probably more history on the stories behind the forms. Although, Sal, I do really appreciate the info. Very interesting stuff. Who says you can't learn stuff on KFM?

[Sal Canzonieri]

But there's never consensus on how SD/CSC forms are translated. Jingang does "sound" like Jinyang. My teachers said the form was called: "Golden Tiger descends the mountain." It's a tiger form. Some apparently call the form "Wu Song defeats the tiger," so maybe they mistranslated Jingang as Jinyang, and saw the connection between Wu Song and this tiger form. Or maybe both translations are correct. I'm looking for "inside SD" guys' opinions on this, as they've been around a long time, and have probably more history on the stories behind the forms. Although, Sal, I do really appreciate the info. Very interesting stuff. Who says you can't learn stuff on KFM?

All you need is to see the Chinese characters for the form titles.

I remember being shown a list of forms from a student, over 10 years ago.
It had all the form names and the Chinese characters.
I remember that the english names were not the actual translation for some of the forms.

Mountain is SHAN, not Chien.

Fu Hu = Ambush Tiger

I remember that the form you are talking about had Chinese characters and the english was:
"Ching Kang Fu Hu Chuan" - (golden mountain (hero) catches the tiger fist), as shown here:
http://www.austinkungfu.com/about_adult_forms.asp

Also, Jin Gang Fu Hu Quan - "Tiger Descends Golden Mountain"
as shown here: http://www.shaolincenter.com/kung_fu_curriculum_1.html
(most of these shown have very incorrect translation of the pinyin words)

which both are totally wrong, the pinyin Chinese simply means Jin gang (Buddha's warrior attentants) ambush tiger boxing (chuan or quan can also be translated as "exercise", which is more closer to what a form is rather than "boxing"). Although a Jingang can be called a Hero, in the Chinese pinyin there is no Mountain written there nor is someone catching a tiger's fist, nor is the tiger descending a mountain. None of those english words are in shown in the pinyin.

there are a lot of Ambush Tiger forms.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I've figured out that much....and I'm working on my Chin-it-ain't-EZ right now.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I am the master of the three hundred!!!!!

I have ushered in the new era of Shaolin Do Banter!!!

You will bow down before me and swear fealty to the Wookie!!!


BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!

[Shaolin Wookie]

Darn....Gene just banned me.....

[Lamassu]

Darn....Gene just banned me.....

and what does that entail?

[ricardocameron]

I have the series and the book.

Old posts....love 'em!

I'd like to get that series and book anyone know where to get it?

In the series GM The demonstrated the sparring techniques so I think it was still open as to which one would be used in a standard curriculum. Also, I learned some of them differently under my first teacher vs. now. Master Mike would tell me that they were taught that way at one time, but now they are done this way. Just drills for applications of our forms as any good martial art should have in it's curriculum.

Mullins Site's version of Sparr. Tech #5 from their website notes:
"Jump, front hand punch, back hand punch, roundhouse."

The way I learned it in Atlanta:starting from Right Side forward(o'course )
"Back hand(left) punch, front hand(right) punch(both number one's), front hand(right arm)block down(drops to block groin), jump-front snap kick right leg"

...no initial jump, no roundhouse and I have a block in the middle....So how'd THAT get so different??? go figure

I'm kinda partial to the way I was taught, naturally....
I USED to be bothered by that kind of stuff. But the differences don't matter as much to me anymore. I'm still throwin' 2 strikes and a kick

[Shaolin Wookie]

and what does that entail?

Just kiddin'......... .....

But it would entail taking away my pitchfork, wiping that sharpie-inscribed goatee off of my chin, stripping from me my red spandex suit and styrofoam wings, and cutting off my fake tail, whihc I donned for that post.

There's only room for one dark lord in this hell.....

[Shaolin Wookie]

Old posts....love 'em!

I'd like to get that series and book anyone know where to get it?



Mullins Site's version of Sparr. Tech #5 from their website notes:
"Jump, front hand punch, back hand punch, roundhouse."

The way I learned it in Atlanta:starting from Right Side forward(o'course )
"Back hand(left) punch, front hand(right) punch(both number one's), front hand(right arm)block down(drops to block groin), jump-front snap kick right leg"

...no initial jump, no roundhouse and I have a block in the middle....So how'd THAT get so different??? go figure

I'm kinda partial to the way I was taught, naturally....
I USED to be bothered by that kind of stuff. But the differences don't matter as much to me anymore. I'm still throwin' 2 strikes and a kick

Word..........it sounds a little like short form 26.....

[ricardocameron]

All you need is to see the Chinese characters for the form titles.

I remember being shown a list of forms from a student, over 10 years ago.
It had all the form names and the Chinese characters.
I remember that the english names were not the actual translation for some of the forms.

Mountain is SHAN, not Chien.

Fu Hu = Ambush Tiger

which both are totally wrong, the pinyin Chinese simply means Jin gang (Buddha's warrior attentants) ambush tiger boxing (chuan or quan can also be translated as "exercise", which is more closer to what a form is rather than "boxing"). Although a Jingang can be called a Hero, in the Chinese pinyin there is no Mountain written there nor is someone catching a tiger's fist, nor is the tiger descending a mountain. None of those english words are in shown in the pinyin.

there are a lot of Ambush Tiger forms.

Which would kinda explain Gm The's take on the "Golden Statue/cyborg" deal spoken of before. Golden Statues' being the Buddha's Attendants.

Other "mistranslations" are evident...

From Shaolincenter
Si Men Dao Lian - "Reversibly Facing Four Opponents"

Mullins:
Se Mong Tau Lie ~ Four Door Way Break

etc.

And yes... I looked at the notes...it's performed somewhat differently than I was taught in Atlanta a while back. Their lineage is out of the Soard's, I think, because when I trained in Colorado in 98, my stuff seemed like it was more like theirs than what I've seen of the Tennesseeans'

[Shaolin Wookie]

Which would kinda explain Gm The's take on the "Golden Statue/cyborg" deal spoken of before. Golden Statues' being the Buddha's Attendants.

Other "mistranslations" are evident...

From Shaolincenter
Si Men Dao Lian - "Reversibly Facing Four Opponents"

Mullins:
Se Mong Tau Lie ~ Four Door Way Break

etc.

And yes... I looked at the notes...it's performed somewhat differently than I was taught in Atlanta a while back. Their lineage is out of the Soard's, I think, because when I trained in Colorado in 98, my stuff seemed like it was more like theirs than what I've seen of the Tennesseeans'

So where are you now, Ricky-boy?

As for Se Meng Tao Lian.......both names might be right. I think a lot of the direct translations from Chinese sound wierd, even in other schools. Some of these "mis-translations" are probably attempts to communicate the meaning or approximation to American students in their own idiom. Hence, reversibly facing four opponents.....you face four opponents/directions in the form, and each time you turn a corner, you start with a blocking maneuver, which would be like switching from one opponent to the next....at each door (gate)....

[ricardocameron]

Listen, guys.....

I'm an SD guy that's been "shopping around" at different schools in Atlanta to see if what I'm studying is the best there is for me.

I've checked out Northern Mantis, Wing Chun, BJJ, Kuntao, Southern Mantis, and Longfist.

You didn't mention regular ol' japanese karate or Kenpo styles....no interest, or just didn't get to 'em? I've always liked the look of Parker's Kenpo, (Jeff Speakman looked like he could use it)althought not like SD, it DOES seem to mix chinese stuff in there, at least! You said it was crap, why do ya think?