Decent light sparring vid

[GlennR]

Cmon Keith... dont give up yet!

Ill just comment on this one exchange

I am not trying to be a jerk but if I took you to a boxing gym and had you spar with someone with a few years under a good trainer you would see that you could not land a single solid shot while he could hit you solidly at will.

You are probably right! But that would be because that boxer has gotten good at controlling the time, distance and positioning in a boxing context...not because he can hit hard.

Id comment Keith that its those things you mentioned, timing, distance and positioning,all add to the power of the shot in the sense that a boxer is in the right overall "position" to administer strikes with force.

I think what TC is saying is that he's not seeing that in Jerry's sparring clips

[tc101]

Cmon Keith... dont give up yet!

Ill just comment on this one exchange



Id comment Keith that its those things you mentioned, timing, distance and positioning,all add to the power of the shot in the sense that a boxer is in the right overall "position" to administer strikes with force.

I think what TC is saying is that he's not seeing that in Jerry's sparring clips

Yes the boxer is in the right overall position as you say and here is the important thing. What put him there? It is that he is constantly trying to be there while sparring. It is a practiced skill and sparring is the practice.

KPM thinks you can just practice timing distance and so forth by themselves and what I keep trying to get him to see is that those things come from seeking the solid shot with your body behing it and you cannot develop them independent of that. The proper distance is the distance where you can hit solidly. The timing is being in position and ready and throwing. If you do not throw there is no timing. Timing requires you do it that you actually throw a punch.

[KPM]

KPM thinks you can just practice timing distance and so forth by themselves and what I keep trying to get him to see is that those things come from seeking the solid shot with your body behing it and you cannot develop them independent of that.

----I guess you never practice WCK Chi Sao, because that is a very important component in learning positional dominance the WCK-way. But then, you are much more boxing/MMA-centric than WCK-centric. We've already established that!

[tc101]

OK. Last response and I'm done with this. I'm sure others are tired of reading it, if anyone is actually reading this.

What does that mean exactly? Exactly what tournament did he win to be a champion? Can I see videos of his fights?

There's the old cop out. "Prove it!" "Show me the video!" How about you show us your videos?

No no not the same old cop out. We are told he is sanda champion. You place great stock in this. So I ask for details. Why? Because I am boxing champion in the US. Yes I once win a tournament in the US where there is one other guy in my weight class.

You make this claim and object when asked for proof. I just do not accept what I am told. Sorry.

What I wanted to see is if Jerry fought in Sandra like he did on his light sparring clip. Would you not like to see that also?

Yes yes yes you do train hard to hit solidly with your body on a bag or whatever but that only works the movement or technique not how to put that in a sparring context.

I think I see the problem now. By your definition you are including the control of timing, distance and positioning in your often repeated phrase "strike solidly with the body", when that phrase and what you have said haven't made that obvious. At least not to me. You could have saved a lot of electrons by simply pointing that out right at the beginning!

I am sorry but I took that as a given. You think these things are separate but they are not we just talk about them separately. You see timing is the timing in doing something it does not exist if you do not do that something.

You want to think you can practice getting into position and so forth without ever doing it without ever striking but you can't since you will not know if you could hit solidly or not without actually trying to hit solidly. The hitting and the quality of it is your feed back and is what you use to correct your timing distance and everything.

---Again, we seem to have been arguing in circles because you haven't made your position clear in past posts. I agree that being able to strike effectively and being able to control the timing, position, and distance are intimately related. I have been saying things over and over to show why I think that the ability to control is more important than the ability to hit hard...not that the ability to hit hard is unimportant. I have been classifying them as two different things and I think I have been very clear on that. You have been lumping them into the same thing buy saying only "solidly striking with the body." That makes it kind of hard to carry on any kind of effective conversation. Don't you think?

What is the timing in hitting a baseball? There is no timing unless you are trying to hit it. How do you work on your timing in hitting a baseball? By hitting baseballs. The timing is a part of the action.

I understand you are focused on controlling the opponent. Yes I learned that controlling the opponent is an objective in wing chun. I am saying though that you cannot hope to do that without solid hitting with your body behind it. You also cannot possibly hope to beat your opponent if you cannot hit him solidly with your body behind it.

Hitting solidly with your body behind it is much more than hitting hard. You can hit lightly but solidly with your body too.

Going back to the baseball analogy you can hit the baseball hard but if not solidly you will not get a hit. When you hit the baseball you always always always want to practice hitting solidly right?

I am saying no one wants to trade blows. I would love it if the other guy stood there and let he hit him but he isn't going to do that. He is going to try to hit me back.

If you are standing in front of the opponent trying to hit him at the same time that he is trying to hit you back, isn't that "trading blows"??????

Who do you spar with that is not constantly facing you and trying to hit you? That is the reality. Sparring is learning how you can deal with that.

I know there are many types of sparring and different intents but that does not mean they are any good. Playing tag with slaps is from my perspective worthless and counter productive.

And again, you have proven that your perspective is much more boxing/MMA-centric than WCK-centric.

I think wing chun is great. A problem I see is that there is a gap between learning the system and learning to use it in sparring and that this comes from most people in traditional arts doing a bit of poor sparring with no real guidance from good trainers. People think the system makes you a fighter but this is not true. The system is one thing and sparring is another.

When I learn wing chun the first thing I learned was the punch and punching. I learned this was the most important thing in wing chun. I was told that the quality of your wing chun can be seen and felt in your punch. I was told stories of the past masters winning fights with a single strike. I read an interview with Ho Kam Ming where he says be more like Tyson hit your opponent and knock him own. I read an interview with Inosanto where he says Bruce said Yip Man had the most powerful punch.

When sparring I see for myself that the most important thing in being able to just survive when your opponent is really trying to hit you solidly is your ability to hit him solidly with your body and that if you cannot do that you have no chance. I see everything stems from that basic skill. I also see that this is also true in boxing and mt and mma it is true in all striking arts it is only how we go about doing that is different.

[tc101]

KPM thinks you can just practice timing distance and so forth by themselves and what I keep trying to get him to see is that those things come from seeking the solid shot with your body behing it and you cannot develop them independent of that.

----I guess you never practice WCK Chi Sao, because that is a very important component in learning positional dominance the WCK-way. But then, you are much more boxing/MMA-centric than WCK-centric. We've already established that!

I do lots of chi Sao and yes it teaches you wing chun. It does not teach you how to use your wing chun in sparring.

[guy b.]

Yes the boxer is in the right overall position as you say and here is the important thing. What put him there? It is that he is constantly trying to be there while sparring. It is a practiced skill and sparring is the practice.

KPM thinks you can just practice timing distance and so forth by themselves and what I keep trying to get him to see is that those things come from seeking the solid shot with your body behing it and you cannot develop them independent of that. The proper distance is the distance where you can hit solidly. The timing is being in position and ready and throwing. If you do not throw there is no timing. Timing requires you do it that you actually throw a punch.

Provided you spar heavy sometimes there is absolutely no reason not to touch spar at other times working on different things. This is done in boxing gyms and thai gyms. Provided both participants know how to issue force there is no problem with this.

It is nonsense to suggest that Jerry isn't using structure in the clip when required. If the hsing yi guy attempts to charge through (which he does several times), the structure is applied as required. Movement with force applied is just the same precisely because Jerry has sparred hard many times and knows not to make up some kind of abstraction only applicable to light sparring.

[tc101]

Provided you spar heavy sometimes there is absolutely no reason not to touch spar at other times working on different things. This is done in boxing gyms and thai gyms. Provided both participants know how to issue force there is no problem with this.

Hitting solidly with your body is not going heavy it is the quality of your strike. There is a solidness you can feel when you hit something that way so it is feed back and your opponent can feel it also. That has to be constantly reinforced through practice. You develop the feel for it outside of sparring.

Sparring is where you learn to put things together for yourself. The basis for that the foundation or stem for everything else is solid striking with your body.

I have worked out at many boxing gyms and never seen any touch sparring.

It is not a question of knowing how to strike properly but of practicing to strike properly. I know how to hit a baseball properly. Does knowing that mean I can hit balls at will? Even when a trained pitcher is trying to get one past me?

It is nonsense to suggest that Jerry isn't using structure in the clip when required. If the hsing yi guy attempts to charge through (which he does several times), the structure is applied as required. Movement with force applied is just the same precisely because Jerry has sparred hard many times and knows not to make up some kind of abstraction only applicable to light sparring.

I am not saying he is not using wing chun structure.

[guy b.]

Hitting solidly with your body is not going heavy it is the quality of your strike. There is a solidness you can feel when you hit something that way so it is feed back and your opponent can feel it also. That has to be constantly reinforced through practice. You develop the feel for it outside of sparring.

Hitting "solidly with your body" I assume means hitting so that the opponent feels the connected structure transmitting the ground force into their body. A hit with structure will not collapse if it encounters pressure. Is this what you mean?

I have worked out at many boxing gyms and never seen any touch sparring.

I have. It is particularly common in MT in my experience. What do you mean by touch sparring though? Why do you assume it lacks structure, if by structure you mean the above?

It is not a question of knowing how to strike properly but of practicing to strike properly. I know how to hit a baseball properly. Does knowing that mean I can hit balls at will? Even when a trained pitcher is trying to get one past me?

Seems irrelevant to the point I am making. Hard sparring is putting it all together. This doesn't mean that parts cannot be isolated and trained, provided you know what the full activity you are attempting to optimise actually is. Most athletes break down every activity into parts which they train in isolation, as well as training the full activity. This is the usual athletic training protocol for complex activity. Why have you never seen this before? You do bjj?

I am not saying he is not using wing chun structure.

If he is using structure then is what way is he failing to "hit solidly with his body"?

[tc101]

Hitting "solidly with your body" I assume means hitting so that the opponent feels the connected structure transmitting the ground force into their body. A hit with structure will not collapse if it encounters pressure. Is this what you mean?

I do not know what ground force is. I mean you are hitting and making a solid impact connection to your opponent and your body weight momentum is transferred into the target in such a way as to get maximum power transfer at whatever level of power you are using. Even going ligjhtly you will feel a jolt from a solid strike. It is hard to put into words but you can feel it. Sort of like hitting a baseball solidly on the sweet spot of your bat.

I have. It is particularly common in MT in my experience. What do you mean by touch sparring though? Why do you assume it lacks structure, if by structure you mean the above?

Why do you keep talkiing about structure I am not talking about it?

All sparring that I have done has reinforced no matter how hard or light we went the importance of hitting solidly with my body behind my strike. Sparring is like batting practice. When you practice hitting a ball you can go light or really swing but in any case you are always trying to hit the ball solidly and get maximun power transfer right?

So when I look at someone doing batting practice what is the first thing I look at? How they are hitting the ball. Are they hitting solidly? If they are swinging and not even trying to hit solidly are you surprised that I say it is poor batting practice? How about when people say yeah but he could hit the ball solidly if he wanted to? he is only working on his timing and so forth? It makes no sense.

Seems irrelevant to the point I am making. Hard sparring is putting it all together. This doesn't mean that parts cannot be isolated and trained, provided you know what the full activity you are attempting to optimise actually is. Most athletes break down every activity into parts which they train in isolation, as well as training the full activity. This is the usual athletic training protocol for complex activity. Why have you never seen this before? You do bjj?

If you are sparring you are putting it all together whether you go light or heavy or in between. Sometimes parts can be isolated and some times not it depends.

If he is using structure then is what way is he failing to "hit solidly with his body"?

He is using wing chun movement structure and so forth. A boxer can get in the ring and using boxing movment structure and so forth and also not hit solidly. Hitting solidly has to be your focus or intent when you spar just like when you get in the batting cage. It is also your feed back so you can see if you are doing things well or not. How does a baseball hitter know his swing is working ? Feed back from hitting the ball.

[guy b.]

I do not know what ground force is.

Non collapsible structure transmitting force from the foot against the ground through the body to the hand. If timing or movement is off then force is not transmitted through the structure effectively.

I mean you are hitting and making a solid impact connection to your opponent and your body weight momentum is transferred into the target in such a way as to get maximum power transfer at whatever level of power you are using.

Sounds exactly the same as ground force transferred through good structure

Even going ligjhtly you will feel a jolt from a solid strike. It is hard to put into words but you can feel it. Sort of like hitting a baseball solidly on the sweet spot of your bat.

Well duh.

Why do you keep talkiing about structure I am not talking about it?

Because it sounds like you are talking about structure and movement combined to transmit force

All sparring that I have done has reinforced no matter how hard or light we went the importance of hitting solidly with my body behind my strike. Sparring is like batting practice. When you practice hitting a ball you can go light or really swing but in any case you are always trying to hit the ball solidly and get maximun power transfer right?

And in this clip you will see very light ground force transmitted through good structure because of the need for politeness. When it is required Jerry increases the force slightly. Structure is there, no need to power the strikes.

So when I look at someone doing batting practice what is the first thing I look at? How they are hitting the ball. Are they hitting solidly? If they are swinging and not even trying to hit solidly are you surprised that I say it is poor batting practice? How about when people say yeah but he could hit the ball solidly if he wanted to? he is only working on his timing and so forth? It makes no sense.

Hitting balls is not all that athletes training to hit balls do. Sometimes they work the mechanics of the swing or part of the swing. Sometimes they work on individual parts of the power chain in a slow or isolated way in order to correct mistakes. Sometimes they work all or part of the swing with no bat in their hands and no force transmitted because they already have the neural connections burned in. Sometimes they work reactions and timing. Sometimes they work outwith normal parameters to reinforce normal, sometimes to familiarise with abnormal. Sometimes they work with resistance, sometimes with assistance. Sometimes they don't swing anything and work instead on visualisation. All are useful. All work different things.

If you are sparring you are putting it all together whether you go light or heavy or in between. Sometimes parts can be isolated and some times not it depends.

You aren't putting it all together if you spar light. Reactions are very different if you are really hurting your opponent. Light sparring is really about testing aspects of structure, movement, experimenting without fear, and working pre-contact timing.

He is using wing chun movement structure and so forth. A boxer can get in the ring and using boxing movment structure and so forth and also not hit solidly. Hitting solidly has to be your focus or intent when you spar just like when you get in the batting cage. It is also your feed back so you can see if you are doing things well or not. How does a baseball hitter know his swing is working ? Feed back from hitting the ball.

Structure + correct movement and timing = hitting solidly, as in this clip when it is necessary.

[tc101]

Non collapsible structure transmitting force from the foot against the ground through the body to the hand. If timing or movement is off then force is not transmitted through the structure effectively.

I do not like creating terms for things that do not really exist.

Because it sounds like you are talking about structure and movement combined to transmit force

This is overcomplicating and confusing things. I am talking about what I am talking about which is solidly hitting with the body behind it.

And in this clip you will see very light ground force transmitted through good structure because of the need for politeness. When it is required Jerry increases the force slightly. Structure is there, no need to power the strikes.

What I see are two guys slap sparring and neither trying to hit solidly. There is no such thing as ground force.

Hitting balls is not all that athletes training to hit balls do. Sometimes they work the mechanics of the swing or part of the swing. Sometimes they work on individual parts of the power chain in a slow or isolated way in order to correct mistakes. Sometimes they work all or part of the swing with no bat in their hands and no force transmitted because they already have the neural connections burned in. Sometimes they work reactions and timing. Sometimes they work outwith normal parameters to reinforce normal, sometimes to familiarise with abnormal. Sometimes they work with resistance, sometimes with assistance. Sometimes they don't swing anything and work instead on visualisation. All are useful. All work different things.

Yes but the point is that when they do batting practice they are always always always trying to hit the ball solidly. You cannot work on timing without actually hitting balls.

You aren't putting it all together if you spar light. Reactions are very different if you are really hurting your opponent. Light sparring is really about testing aspects of structure, movement, experimenting without fear, and working pre-contact timing.

All sparring is practice fighting. If you are not practicing fighting then you are not sparring you are doing something else.

Structure + correct movement and timing = hitting solidly, as in this clip when it is necessary.

The clips shows people not hitting solidly. The Orr clips shows people hitting solidly.

The only way to tell is someone has good structure and good timing and correct movement is by and with solid hitting. You know someone swung the bat well with correct timing by the fact he hits the ball solidly. That feedback the solidness of the hit is the only way to know if your timing range positioning and structure is correct.

[Hendrik]

Because , as I have pointed out in the previous post,

You don't even know the different between body type power generation and force line type power generation.

How can you know the different? On ground force?

Like a color blind keep argue there is no red color while red is in front of his eyes.

What I see are two guys slap sparring and neither trying to hit solidly. There is no such thing as ground force.

[guy b.]

I do not like creating terms for things that do not really exist.

Striking force derived from moving the body by pushing against the ground with the feet does in fact exist. Structure (alignment of the body in order to transmit the force vector from the ground) is in fact essential in the effective transmission of that striking force into a target. Two weightless people with nothing to brace against cannot transmit damaging force between them: the energy is dissipated in movement. Any attempt to transmit force without structure results in the energy being dissipated in collapse.

This is overcomplicating and confusing things. I am talking about what I am talking about which is solidly hitting with the body behind it.

Sounds like exactly the same thing. Your language is much too non-specific though.

What I see are two guys slap sparring and neither trying to hit solidly.

You are contradicting yourself. Jerry is hitting lightly but solidly because of his structure and timing. Solidly seems to mean whatever you want it to mean, bit of a shifting goalpost. That's the problem with non-specific language

Yes but the point is that when they do batting practice they are always always always trying to hit the ball solidly. You cannot work on timing without actually hitting balls.

They are not always doing batting practice. Also, if you watch cricket batting practice at all you will often see batsmen parrying and not putting any solid hit (apart from structural connection to the ground) into their stroke at all. They are working a different aspect of the game. It seems you only like simplistic games.

All sparring is practice fighting. If you are not practicing fighting then you are not sparring you are doing something else.

..like practicing specific aspects of fighting or fixing particular issues with your fighting

The clips shows people not hitting solidly. The Orr clips shows people hitting solidly.

Correction. The Jerry clip shows him hitting lightly but with structure and force transmission into his opponent. The Orr clip shows people working hard but hitting inefficiently and without structure making the whole thing rather a waste of time. A lot of puff and effort but no damage.

The only way to tell is someone has good structure and good timing and correct movement is by and with solid hitting. You know someone swung the bat well with correct timing by the fact he hits the ball solidly. That feedback the solidness of the hit is the only way to know if your timing range positioning and structure is correct.

I don't think anyone is denying the essential nature of actually hitting the ball with the bat sometimes. I am merely taking issue with your idea of throwing people a bat and ball and telling them to get on with it. Your approach is a low skill approach. You seem to forget that wing chun is an intelligent martial art

[Wayfaring]

Correction. The Jerry clip shows him hitting lightly but with structure and force transmission into his opponent. The Orr clip shows people working hard but hitting inefficiently and without structure making the whole thing rather a waste of time. A lot of puff and effort but no damage.

You know, the "with structure and force transmission into his opponent" sounds a little BS, but in my viewpoint what I saw was a light sparring session. Some movements were undisciplined and exploratory, others were timed and structured. Like what I would expect to see practically with a standard light sparring session including format and goals. So to me it is not a worthwhile exercise to pick it apart in terms of what it is not, like a full hard sparring session or a fight round.

I'm not sure what clip of Alan Orr you are looking at but from my perspective what I see of his clips involve a lot of hip in pressure which exerts a lot of forward intent on the bridge. That pressure and the key off of what it opens to me are the salient points on his methods. Of course Robert Chu's structure is at the base of it, and his hips in structure tests are commonly known on this forum. I think if you look at his guys MMA fights which are public clips they definitely have structure hitting based on those fundamentals.

[KPM]

There is no such thing as ground force.

Very wrong my friend. "Ground force", more specifically "Ground reaction force", is a common and very important concept and term used in the biomechanics of gait and locomotion. Ground reaction force, in a nutshell, is the idea that when you push against the ground, the ground pushes back. When force is applied through your structure from a grounded position, it is going to be reflected back into your structure.