Chinese sword guard design

[jdhowland]

...the moment that your Dao guard touches your opponent's sword guard, you move your body in and then push the blade of your Dao into your opponent's chest...

Right. Hence the forward facing flange on the dao guard. I inwardly roll my eyes when I hear people referring to this as a "blood cup."

[Lucas]

I hear people referring to this as a "blood cup."

wtf are you serious?

[SPJ]

yes. standard infantry and calvary weapons

were long spear and long spear. Ge or Ji.

jian was only short distance defense. or just gesture wearing or ceremony wearing.

Da Dao is still good.

Da Dao was used in the northwest army (Xi Bei Jun) or 29 th army and fought Japan in WWII.

I saw Da Dao from Ji Xin Wen. He first used Da Dao and defending Xi Feng Kou near great walls of China.

My high school was across the street from Military Museum in Taiwan.

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[jdhowland]

wtf are you serious?

Rarely. You mean about people referring to this type of guard as a "blood cup." Sure. Heard it more than once from armchair experts who say the design was meant to catch blood before it gets to the hilt.

[GeneChing]

I hear that so often - it pains me the same way hearing Eye of the Tiger pains me.

Clearly, the jian guard doesn't serve as significant hand protection. It can serve as a grip purchase, not at all unlike early arming swords. In fact, if you look at the evolution of western swords, crossing the guard with the finger produces the finger ring, which evolves into more complex permutations, like the swept-hilt guard. The finger ring becomes pas d'ane (the rings in the ricasso) and eventually, the swept-hilt closes into a solid cup-hilt guard. It's a pretty straight forward evolutionary course. Chinese guards haven't evolved significantly over the centuries. The modern guard retains the same basic shape as the ancient ones, more or less. I have seen some old Chinese diagrams that allude to finger rings, but I haven't seen actual historic examples.

[jdhowland]

GeneChing;1132342]I hear that so often - it pains me the same way hearing Eye of the Tiger pains me.

This made me smile. I don't do that often.

Clearly, the jian guard doesn't serve as significant hand protection. It can serve as a grip purchase, not at all unlike early arming swords. In fact, if you look at the evolution of western swords, crossing the guard with the finger produces the finger ring, which evolves into more complex permutations, like the swept-hilt guard. The finger ring becomes pas d'ane (the rings in the ricasso) and eventually, the swept-hilt closes into a solid cup-hilt guard. It's a pretty straight forward evolutionary course.

Yes. I was hoping swordsman Gene would drop in for an observation such as this. This clarifies the practicality of the swept back shape. Many seem designed to fit the index finger this way. I have learned three jian sets. All use the finger on the "guard" this way and two use the index finger against the blade as support.

Chinese guards haven't evolved significantly over the centuries. The modern guard retains the same basic shape as the ancient ones, more or less...

When a weapon does not evolve with changing styles of warfare it is usually an indication that the weapon has a strong cultural value beyond utility. Think of the bushi class in Japan. The odachi was a badge of rank for the samurai even though it was outclassed by spears, arrows and naginata. The "classic" european sword is straight even though curved blades were the final military design. It's a symbol of honor and chivalry.

[kristcaldwell]

the purpose of the forward facing guard (for lack of a better term), pertains to one's grip. simply put, it allows for greater control by allowing the user the ability to (slightly) manipulate finger positions for the desired strike. additionally, with the thumb and forefinger overlapping part of the guard (but never wrapping around it like many wushu practitioners perform), the sword is in a position more conducive for stabbing.

[YMC]

A quick historical survey of surviving jian from the Qing dynasty will show that both the forward swept and back swept guard designs in almost equal distribution if one combines village militia pieces, higher end pieces, and tourist pieces. I have attached 2 examples of each.

I find that village militia pieces tend to have forward swept guards.

The more refined pieces will usually have the swept back guards, what some have called the "ace of spades" shape. As someone already pointed out, there is likely a symbolic reason for this, probably tracing back to the ruyi shape. I post an example of the ruyi pattern; a rough translation of ruyi means "as you wish," and is typically a symbol for longevity, auspiciousness.

[YMC]

That the jian basically died out as a formal battlefield weapon at the end of the Ming is not in dispute. The Qing are a Turkic-Mongolian people and the dao was their preferred blade. However, the pure number of surviving Qing era village quality jian belies the argument that the jian was no longer used extensively. It may not have been used by the military proper, but just one can't say that militia or civilian martial artists weren't hacking themselves up with them. These were rustically made, no frills weapons. Not ceremonial pieces or part of formal dress.

So if the forward swept guard was so disadvantageous and so easy for your opponent to control, why did the design continue to be produced in such high numbers? One could argue that the Chinese don't like to change and stuck with the design, or that indeed, no one really used jian anymore so why change the design of a show piece? However, let me ask a basic physics question. The tip on the blade is how far from the center of gravity of the blade versus the guard? Who actually has the better ability to control the duifan's weapon if the tip of the blade is caught at the guard?

[ginosifu]

If the guard of your opponent's single edge Dao touches your sword guard, he can then use his other hand to press the back of his blade (with his body weight behind) and press his blade into your body. That's one of the most important skills used in Dao.

Would not the forward or upward guard be used to trap that Dao? Then with a slight twist to lock it in place and then redirect the Dao?

ginosifu

[bawang]

That the jian basically died out as a formal battlefield weapon at the end of the Ming is not in dispute. The Qing are a Turkic-Mongolian people and the dao was their preferred blade.

no. the jian died out a long time earlier. an official survey was done by the ming dynasty military and could not find a single person who taught jian for combat, and it was declared officially extinct. (author mao yuanyi, book wu beizhi)

the jian became increasingly useless as early as the han dynasty over 2000 years ago, completely uselsess by tang dynasty 1500 years ago.

[YMC]

no. the jian died out during the ming dynasty. an official survey was done by the military and could not find a single person who taught jian for combat.

the jian became increasingly useless as early as the han dynasty over 2000 years ago, completely uselsess by tang dynasty 1500 years ago.

Again, I don't think that there is any dispute that the jian lost its usefulness in the MILITARY by the Ming dynasty. My understanding is that this was towards the end of the Ming and the Qing certainly weren't going to revive the tradition. Do you mind providing the source of the survey you cite? If the military use of the jian ended much earlier than the tail-end of the Ming then I will have to update my understanding.

However, the jian's use in civilian circles or in militias certainly didn't end given the extent of the surviving antique jian dating from the Qing. So unless one equates military use of weapon as the only measure of its survival as an art or combat weapon, then a lot of wasted time was spent in making weapons of fairly complicated manufacture.

[bawang]

Do you mind providing the source of the survey you cite?

http://archive.wul.waseda.ac.jp/kosh...0031_p0072.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wubei_Zhi

However, the jian's use in civilian circles or in militias certainly didn't end given the extent of the surviving antique jian dating from the Qing.

the jian's use in civilian circles involved dancing for money.

So unless one equates military use of weapon as the only measure of its survival as an art or combat weapon, then a lot of wasted time was spent in making weapons of fairly complicated manufacture.

military use of jian is the only measure of its survival because the jian is a military weapon used by the military

[TenTigers]

I also see the forward facing guard as a trapping device.
Even on some butterfly knife designs, the guard is not so elongated, but still able to trap the opponent's weapon.
Now, back to the blood cup. I have also heard it described as such, particularly from Paul Chen/Hanwei swords.

[YMC]

Ah, thanks for providing the source. My understanding is that this reference was written in the latter part of the Ming dynasty right?

I can also see that we are at an impasse because we are defining usefulness and survival of an combat art differently. The attributes of a trained army versus militia or single fighter are different things.

I also can't argue against your dancing for money statement since I agree with it. However, given that most of the antique early to mid Qing jian I have handled and studied were balanced with its center of gravity ~4-6in from the guard, differentially hardened with cutting edges over 50-55 on Rockwell scale, these weren't made only for performance. Contrasting these examples with some I have seen dated towards the end of Qing and beginning of the Republican era, which were not differentially hardened with soft "cutting" edges, lighter, with center of gravity much nearer to the guard, it is clear these pieces were made for performance or as decorations. So why bother with the complicated manufacture of "functional" weapons if no one knew how to use them?