Practicing techniques "too deadly for the ring"

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'd say that most people who are at all self-aware, and who focus at all when they are training can tell when they have improved their own athleticism, speed, balance, power and other necessities of TCMA. For example, if I've been training to do a one-legged squat in a form, and finally I can do it without losing balance, I know that I have improved through my training.

I'd ask a somewhat similar question of MMA athletes: How do MMA athletes know that they aren't prematurely aging their bodies by fighting to aggressively and exposing themselves to excessive risks of injury? From my admittedly outsider's view, it would appear that the competitive fighting careers of most fighters in that area are significantly shorter than the "careers" of those training in TCMA.

I know there's a bit of "apples vs. oranges" inherent in any of this MMA vs TMA argument, but my personal belief is that MMA is drastically faster to learn to fight effectively. I'd say if you took 2 people and had one training in MMA for 2 years and one training in TMA for 2 years, the MMA'er would win (in an appropriate rule set) the majority of the time. However, if you went on a longer timeline, say till both fighters were in their 40s and 50s, and you'd have only one fighter. The TMA artist would still be able to practice his Art, whereas the MMA'er would have retired long ago due to knee injuries, repeated concussions, or other injuries and wear and tear. Granted, MMA is a relatively recent development, and with the current state of sports-medicine, I could be wrong, but I'd hypothesize that TMA is better of for the long run for people looking to have a life-long hobby something you could practice with your grandchildren, rather than just being able to show pictures to your children as to what you "used to" do.

I think you are confusing competitive stress on the body with "environmental" stress on the body through the activity.
MMA is simply a combination of striking, clinching, throwing and ground work, in other words, it is what MA have always been since the dawn of time.

There is nothing more physiclaly demanding in MMA training than there is VS any other comparable method of training.

[MightyB]

... However, if you went on a longer timeline, say till both fighters were in their 40s and 50s, and you'd have only one fighter. The TMA artist would still be able to practice his Art, whereas the MMA'er would have retired long ago due to knee injuries, repeated concussions, or other injuries and wear and tear. Granted, MMA is a relatively recent development, and with the current state of sports-medicine, I could be wrong, but I'd hypothesize that TMA is better of for the long run for people looking to have a life-long hobby something you could practice with your grandchildren, rather than just being able to show pictures to your children as to what you "used to" do.

Rebuttal

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[SPJ]

there are rules for safety in the ring.

lei tai can be set with rules defining what is considered a win and what is a loss beforehand.

lei tai can also be a death match, then both have to sign life/death certificate or shen si zhuang or declaration of life and death

meaning if some how death occurs, no sueing the other party.

well

for most of us, tapping to yield is enough.

lose a shirt buy a new one

lost a fight, then fight another day

no need to lose life or get seriously injured, or do we.

[YouKnowWho]

no need to lose life or get seriously injured, or do we.

What will you do in the following situation?

When someone bowed to you and asked, "Dear master, may I ask you the application of Taiji needle at the bottom of the sea?" When you showed him the application, he suddently attacked you without warning.

You may not want to look for trouble but sometime trouble will look for you.

[Lucas]

break his wrist/arm and then throw him down onto the ground, and then kick him in the head.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I'd say that most people who are at all self-aware, and who focus at all when they are training can tell when they have improved their own athleticism, speed, balance, power and other necessities of TCMA. For example, if I've been training to do a one-legged squat in a form, and finally I can do it without losing balance, I know that I have improved through my training.

I'd ask a somewhat similar question of MMA athletes: How do MMA athletes know that they aren't prematurely aging their bodies by fighting to aggressively and exposing themselves to excessive risks of injury? From my admittedly outsider's view, it would appear that the competitive fighting careers of most fighters in that area are significantly shorter than the "careers" of those training in TCMA.

I know there's a bit of "apples vs. oranges" inherent in any of this MMA vs TMA argument, but my personal belief is that MMA is drastically faster to learn to fight effectively. I'd say if you took 2 people and had one training in MMA for 2 years and one training in TMA for 2 years, the MMA'er would win (in an appropriate rule set) the majority of the time. However, if you went on a longer timeline, say till both fighters were in their 40s and 50s, and you'd have only one fighter. The TMA artist would still be able to practice his Art, whereas the MMA'er would have retired long ago due to knee injuries, repeated concussions, or other injuries and wear and tear. Granted, MMA is a relatively recent development, and with the current state of sports-medicine, I could be wrong, but I'd hypothesize that TMA is better of for the long run for people looking to have a life-long hobby something you could practice with your grandchildren, rather than just being able to show pictures to your children as to what you "used to" do.

The problem with this ideology is that many of the Kung Fu people who don't train with pressure testing their skills can't and will never be able to fight.

We all have a short window of time when we are in our fighting prime physically, which is usually 18-19 (when puberty is completely done and growth has stopped) until maybe 36 or 37, which even than is pushing it. After this reaction time, speed, stamina, all these go down hill. Strength does remain and the "old man" strength as it is sometimes called can be the most formidable tool you have, that and of course experience, widsom, and trachery. But there is a reason that you don't see guys in their 50's competing against top competition in MMA, Boxing, or any other combat sport. Yes, there is Randy Couture, but if anyone thinks Couture would match up well with someone in their prime like Jon Jones they are kidding themselves.

But the point is this, yes, health wise the Kung Fu artist may be healthier in some respects at an older age, but just because they practiced forms and chi kung for 30 years does not mean they can fight. This is not a blanket statement, we all know we are part of the Kung Fu group that can fight, but training methods will always be the determination of a fighter's worth.

[MightyB]

We all have a short window of time when we are in our fighting prime physically, which is usually 18-19 (when puberty is completely done and growth has stopped) until maybe 36 or 37, which even than is pushing it. After this reaction time, speed, stamina, all these go down hill. Strength does remain and the "old man" strength as it is sometimes called can be the most formidable tool you have, that and of course experience, widsom, and trachery. But there is a reason that you don't see guys in their 50's competing against top competition in MMA, Boxing, or any other combat sport. Yes, there is Randy Couture, but if anyone thinks Couture would match up well with someone in their prime like Jon Jones they are kidding themselves.

10 years ago, I'd agree with you, but I think our perceptions on age and capabilities is going to change. The glass ceiling has been shattered. Is there a limit - yes, but I think it's moved and is in the process of stabilizing. I think we're in for professional athletes being competitive into their mid 50s. I think the fans will have a hard time accepting 50 year old athletes, but nevertheless, they will be competitive.

[sanjuro_ronin]

10 years ago, I'd agree with you, but I think our perceptions on age and capabilities is going to change. The glass ceiling has been shattered. Is there a limit - yes, but I think it's moved and is in the process of stabilizing. I think we're in for professional athletes being competitive into their mid 50s. I think the fans will have a hard time accepting 50 year old athletes, but nevertheless, they will be competitive.

Yes and no.
Because of many things such as better training methodologies and far better "recovery methods", we will see people being high level athletes for far longer, provided they are high level to begin with.
High level athletes have always been "better than average" regardless of age, as compared to the average joe.
That said.
Outside of the occasional freak, the average older high level athlete will still be compared to the younger one if they go head-to-head and as we have seen, typically, that doesn't bold well for the older athlete.

[MightyB]

That said.
Outside of the occasional freak, the average older high level athlete will still be compared to the younger one if they go head-to-head and as we have seen, typically, that doesn't bold well for the older athlete.

Today we say that... but is it true? How about in 5 years? Or 10? When will Favre call it quits... for real?

[iunojupiter]

Today we say that... but is it true? How about in 5 years? Or 10? When will Favre call it quits... for real?

When will Favre realize he sucks and should be put to pasture?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Today we say that... but is it true? How about in 5 years? Or 10? When will Favre call it quits... for real?

Well, when AND IF it becomes the norm rather than the exception then I will say, you're right, till then

Look at Jack Lalane and all he did well into his 70's, but he was the exception, not the norm.
Not saying that older athletes won't be competitive or that the lifespan of younger ones won't be more than it is now, NO, I think that will indeed be the case.

[MightyB]

honestly - I don't care about the elite stuff. All I care about is myself and I can say, barring some horrible accident, that I will still be able to trounce 20 something "young studs" in my local kwoons and gyms well into my 50s. The exceptions being the occasional freak of nature that has the potential to be a pro. The best part being, the older I get, if I lose, the more I can blame on age

[wenshu]

When will Favre call it quits... for real?

When someone takes away his camera phone?

[YouKnowWho]

the older I get, if I lose, the more I can blame on age

Next time when someone knocks on my door and request a challenge, I'll sit on my wheel chair and open my door. I'll then scream, "I'll sue you if you dare to touch me."

[MightyB]

Next time when someone knocks on my door and request a challenge, I'll sit on my wheel chair and open my door. I'll then scream, "I'll sue you if you dare to touch me."

now that's funny

True story - the other day I'm rolling pretty hard with this young ukrainian kid. I mess up and he catches my arm in an Americana. It's not quite right, but he's basically got me. I say stop- let me help with your technique. I then let him apply the americana while teaching him the proper technique. After which- we go back to neutral and we start again. this time I win.