Profound respect for Si Kwok Lam and Yip Chun, re: Yuen Kay San

[Shadow_warrior8]

I did not want to post this here because I believe the Yiu and Yuen families are respectable in China, and when we go, we meet up with them. The apology about misrepresentation in the movie was a gracious move like what Rene said.

But too many lies are being told about Ip Man here so here is a post by Ip Ching who lived in fatshan and tells their family situation

Part of an interview by Ip Ching from Moy Yat about Ip Man in Fatshan

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Ving Tsun was teached to the "Young Lords" of FatSan by Chan Wah Shun, and between those young ones, there was the most famous 'till today: IP MAN

"My grandpa managed the Ip Family finances. We owned restaurants, funeral houses and the famous Song Garden where the food for silk worms grow. The Song Garden was very huge and the goverment needed to make a road in the same place. So, after my grandpa dies the road was called Fuk Yin. This road is very near to Chopstick street, where Leung Jaan lived." - said Ip Ching to Moy Yat.

http://lukdimbungwaan.blogspot.com/

[Shadow_warrior8]

Yeh right dude. So now SN stood infront of everyone and confonted YM. Seriously. What major lies were being spead, what were all the other schools.
Gwok fu is majorly different to yip chun. Gwok fu trainned hard and was known as one of the best fighters in fut san hence the soliders needing to tie him up and break his legs with rifle butts. I have never heard a bad word from gwok fu about anyone. Every story he told left both parties with a good standing. What people turn it into is another story.
Who cares what chan wah shun's grandson does. Ive seen him, hes ****. He like other relatives of famous people just goes off his name and what he does has so much crap in it its hard to tell what is VT.

Fast forward into present day from stories of who beat up who and who taught who all that crap.

Sifu Samuel Kwok goes to china with his group alot. And there are videos of his students exchanging with those china lineages. And the result- well they are humble because of respecting teacher and way to post it online.

[Pacman]

not that the song or mulberry gardens are relevant to wing chun skill, but distortions about this fact are an example of the distortions about YM.

The attempt to make change who and what YM was, the attempt to portray him as the super rich leisurely man that had nothing to do but practice his WC

Go ask Yip Chun, why in the apology news conference when Yuen yelling at him "Throughout the known history of Foshan, in the city map, there was no house addressed in the Mulberry garden estate that is claimed as your house! Mulberry Gardens is Yuen's ancestral home, you were living at my house! ". Why did Yip not respond?

I did not want to post this here because I believe the Yiu and Yuen families are respectable in China, and when we go, we meet up with them. The apology about misrepresentation in the movie was a gracious move like what Rene said.

But too many lies are being told about Ip Man here so here is a post by Ip Ching who lived in fatshan and tells their family situation

Part of an interview by Ip Ching from Moy Yat about Ip Man in Fatshan

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Ving Tsun was teached to the "Young Lords" of FatSan by Chan Wah Shun, and between those young ones, there was the most famous 'till today: IP MAN

"My grandpa managed the Ip Family finances. We owned restaurants, funeral houses and the famous Song Garden where the food for silk worms grow. The Song Garden was very huge and the goverment needed to make a road in the same place. So, after my grandpa dies the road was called Fuk Yin. This road is very near to Chopstick street, where Leung Jaan lived." - said Ip Ching to Moy Yat.

http://lukdimbungwaan.blogspot.com/

[Pacman]

I have found the similar facts as you. So while the forms of YKS and Ip Man are similar in appearance and its public, for all to see on video, I happen to notice a vast difference in application and energy when they chi sao

let me be clear, i am not saying that YKS and YM WC are similar. They are vastly vastly different. In energy and application, which is why I always protest when I hear people say all WCK is the same. Doesn't Robert always say that? Now he is saying they are different?

Not saying YKS and YM are the same. All I am claiming is that YKS was the one to simplify into the 3 forms. You can take it or leave it.

[Shadow_warrior8]

let me be clear, i am not saying that YKS and YM WC are similar. They are vastly vastly different. In energy and application, which is why I always protest when I hear people say all WCK is the same. Doesn't Robert always say that? Now he is saying they are different?

Not saying YKS and YM are the same. All I am claiming is that YKS was the one to simplify into the 3 forms. You can take it or leave it.

Historically it has already been said by many seniors who did that and the time line. Look at your wingchunpedia what does it say?
it wasnt yuen kay san, and from the other families that didnt have interaction with him yet still have 3 forms. This is not possible. You can take it or leave it.

First you say Ip Man learn from Yuen Kay San the forms, next you say taught a little chi sao, next you say they are different. If I learnt something from someone, it should be the same. And they are different, and so many other lineages have 3 forms. Even Pan Nam and Chan Wah Shun etc.... Clearly Yiu Choi did not learn from Yuen Kay San but Yuen Chai Wan. Yet he has 3 forms. Why does it say that Yuen, Ip and Yiu were asking Ng Chun So for instructions?
In chinese tradition, we can ask a senior for instructions in certain things, as in, a junior learning as a senior, however this doesnt mean he taught me officially as a sifu.
Your claims on Yuen and how he taught ip man so much of what he knows, the forms, the chi sao is far fetched. And Kwok Fu said, Ip man would stop them from practicing when Yuen came over.

Remembering their ancestors correctly is a very important part of chinese culture, as you can see the reason for this meeting. You should realise that now, and stop your slandering of Ip Man, his family and his descendants.

I get what Sifu Robert is saying in essense. However different people are doing what they interprete as well building on their experiences through training and fighting.

[Shadow_warrior8]

not that the song or mulberry gardens are relevant to wing chun skill, but distortions about this fact are an example of the distortions about YM.
The attempt to make change who and what YM was, the attempt to portray him as the super rich leisurely man that had nothing to do but practice his WC
Go ask Yip Chun, why in the apology news conference when Yuen yelling at him "Throughout the known history of Foshan, in the city map, there was no house addressed in the Mulberry garden estate that is claimed as your house! Mulberry Gardens is Yuen's ancestral home, you were living at my house! ". Why did Yip not respond?

Why would people want to protray ip man like that? In china and worldwide
As you claim it was Master Yuen who lived like that? he was a lawyer as I have record.
Good, please show this.....I want to see this. If there is anything that will add weight to any of your statements, show me in chinese video or text.
We only see the tea pictures, we see ip chun sitting calmly. The confrontation was over the 5-6 western students who looked like bodyguards and Master Yuen Jo Tong was offended thinking Ip Chun had brought people to fight or challenge. This is recorded. I did not see any shouting at Ip Chun at all over a home. Please show me the text. Thank you.

Where is the house now? Its plain land. What happened to the house? Why did Sifu Sergio stand in front of Ip Man Fatshan home? You mean he did not know it was Yuen Family home?
If it is what is claimed by you, then Ip Man house was burnt down. Yuen went to Guangzhou, what happened to the house in Fatshan he allowed Ip Man to stay as you claimed.
Yet in the history of china, it is written, chan wah shun taught in the rented premises of Ip Man. That is fact and in writing
If its true that Ip Man stayed in Yuen house then Ip Chun and Ip Ching also lived there- and I am not saying it is. We can just ask them.
Here is Sifu Sergio showing the homes of Ip Man before and after Japanese occupation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0sgmWFUfJ8
Who name was the title deed in? And that proves they were good friends, and highly respected as brothers as the proper video says by Ah Niu- Yuen Kay San Descendant. So where does it come in for you, that Master Yuen who treated Ip man as his brother letting his family stay there, for you to run down Ip Man?

You know the family of Yuen had ample time from Ip man 1 to present that the house Ip Man was featured in was their own house. Its been 2-3 years and it has created hundreds of thousands of people interested in wingchun in china and following the ip man story. Obviously this press conference was about how the ancestors fighting abilities were represented. From the article and even the time frame what happened
　　神秘老外激怒阮祖棠
　　电影《叶问前传》制片人冼国林一行按邀约时间，准点到达酒家，来到阮祖棠和弟子们所在房间 的隔壁落座。 同行的还有从香港赶来的叶问之子叶准，以及佛山精武体育会会长梁旭辉———他在《叶问前传》中 饰演当年的佛 山精武体育会会长李万豪。阮祖棠带记者们去隔壁房间跟对方会面，临行前他跟记者说，自己跟叶准 还是第一次见 面，“我会在跟他握手的时候跟他说：‘没想到第一次见面是在这样的场合，我非常遗憾，也觉得很 苦涩。’”没 想到还没入座，阮祖棠就突然猛击桌面玻璃，大声发飙：“这些人是打手吗？！”记者这才注意到， 门口有五六位 年轻健壮的男老外，均双手放在背后齐齐站立。阮祖棠情绪激动地要求这些人出去，并喊来服务员关 门，禁止让“ 闲杂人等”入内。
　　时间：12:40
　　老叶准劝阻双方干架
　　阮祖棠继续质疑几位神秘老外的来历，指对方“像黑社会”。冼国林尴尬解释，这是他师叔的弟 子，而他们的 到来是为了见他以及商量《叶问4》的拍摄（冼国林称，他正积极筹拍《叶问4》，并想邀请梁朝伟 担纲）。他说 自己并未授意这些老外进入房间，更非如阮祖棠所怀疑的那样，是他带来的“打手”，甚至表示“你 可以检查我们 的火车票”。但阮祖棠表示不信，冼国林遂对天发誓：“如果我撒谎，就不得好死！”由于双方情绪 激动，言辞激 烈，冼国林一度起身说：“我们走！”但被剧组其他人员劝阻。争吵中，阮祖棠及弟子与冼国林之间 的距离逐渐拉 近，双方都摆开了动武的架势。此时，一直默默坐着的叶准迅速站起，及时拉住了冼国林，而另一边 的姚氏后人则 劝阻了阮祖棠。阮祖棠稍微平静下来后，回头向身后的电视台记者们表示：“这段你们可以播出街！

Here it states very clearly what master yuen said, yelled about and it wasnt about the house or at Ip Chun. In fact he said this is the first time he meets ip chun and when he shakes his hand its regretful to meet under this circumstances. Showing Master Yuen had great respect. In fact, I have seen in china Master Yuen is shown to be very pro chinese- so he was angry at westerners there interfering in traditional chinese family meetings where it seems like a challenge. So when 5-6 westerners were there with Checkley Sim, he felt it was a like a triad meeting. And when Checkley Sim explained and Master Yuen didnt accept it, Checkley stood up and said to LEAVE. In that, both sides had brushed against each other and nearly came to blows.
Ip Chun who was sitting down, stood up, and held on to Checkley sim asking them to calm down. When Master Yuen calmed down, he told the reporters, you can broadcast this segment openly. - THIS IS THE FACTS OF THE REPORT and there were reporters there to witness.

From Master Yiu decendants in the next article I posted,
姚才的嫡系传人姚忠强表示：“ 他们是佛山的咏春三雄，彼此武功不相上下
They were Fatshan 3 heros, kungfu was equal, no one was higher or lower.
姚才的大孙子姚永强介绍，当年在佛山，他的爷爷姚才与叶问、阮奇山并称“咏春三雄”，三人齐名 。后来叶问去 了香港，阮奇山去了广州，姚才则留在了佛山。他们三人的咏春拳各有特点，自成流派，但却难分高 下。他说，作 为叶问大师兄的姚才，以动作快、功底厚著称，人称“大力才”，姚才一派的咏春拳也因此被称为“ 快手咏春”。 “爷爷自小好慕武术，之后跟随吴仲素习武，其时阮奇山、叶问也常往吴武馆请教，三人常交流切磋， 三人的武功 不相上下。”
They were 3 heros, kungfu were equal. Yiu family descendents say their ancestor was known as Great Strength Yiu, Hands were very fast, known as fast hands wingchun. He learnt from Ng Chun So, and Yuen and Ip would ask Ng Chun So for instructions, the 3 were always exchanging, kungfu was equal. Thats chinese humility and graciousness. No one blows their own horns, they say they are equal even when if they are better.
当时，叶问与姚才、阮 奇山三人“好得穿一条裤子”。
This statement is a chinese cliche, meaning 3 person were so good in terms, they would wear the same pants. That is what is described of all three of them as friends and respect.
Note how respectful china is about their own ancestors, and others? No one puts another person down even in setting facts right about their ancestors. That class.

So you have more stories and still nothing from written text or videos? But a video by Clam61 of the report, who edited out the sound, took a few photos of the tea offering, adding in s******s and laughing in the background and made it into a video and uploaded to youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ash3CY-9Ovo this has proper reported chinese text that say one thing, yet the english(obviously added out of translation) text saying something slanderous and untrue- no chinese text to support your english words of Ip Chun lying, Leung Bik didnt teach Ip Man. Just silly politics by people who want to run down Ip Man's name. And the stupidity of doing so while the people in question at the press conference are still alive.
In your attempt to pitch Master Yuen, you have discredited everyone even the descendants in china from Yuen, Yiu, Ip, Fung, Tam, Leung, Chinese goverment for running a scam and sham.
What did Ah Niu from Yuen Kay San Lineage say about the 3 people's relationship?
Again his own words- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5njdTJvxnA
I am sorry to say this is page 9, and you have no reference to anything but stories that have no weight from anywhere. Anyone following this thread or reading the reference will make very clear conclusions. There is no need to post more slanderous stories about Ip Man, Ip Family, Ip Students or the interview which whoever spends the effort to translate it or can read chinese will know what truely happened.
GM Ip Ching talks very clearly about things about his father.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vIkK...eature=channel
Master Lo, setting the record right about his uncle
http://www.lomankamwingchun.com/gran...r-yip-man.html
Ip Man Early life
http://www.chinese.cn/kungfu/en/arti...tent_23061.htm
Great pictures of where was what in fatshan- Mulberry Gardens in Fatshan
http://leekamwing.org/LunGai.aspx
Foshan Museum and its historical research of Ip Man in Fatshan and Hongkong- FACTS
http://www.foshanmuseum.com/wbzy/xsl...sp?xsyj_ID=261
Here Foshan Museum also list Leung Bik being taught by Leung Jan
http://www.foshanmuseum.com/mrmj/mrm...sub.asp?id=117

[t_niehoff]

let me be clear, i am not saying that YKS and YM WC are similar. They are vastly vastly different. In energy and application, which is why I always protest when I hear people say all WCK is the same. Doesn't Robert always say that? Now he is saying they are different?

Yes, you are CONFUSED. Very confused.

YKS WCK is simply a curriculum for teaching WCK. YM WCK is simply a curriculum for teaching WCK. They are two person's textbooks for teaching the same subject matter, WCK; two different ways of teaching someone how to ride a bike. A curriculum to teach you to ride isn't bike riding itself.

BTW, what most WCK people call "application" are imaginary examples of using their WCK. They are not really "application." Application is fighting. So when someone teaches application, they should really be teaching this-is-what-I-routinely-do-in-fighting. 99.9 %of the time we don't see that.

Not saying YKS and YM are the same. All I am claiming is that YKS was the one to simplify into the 3 forms. You can take it or leave it.

I'll take it -- as a feeble attempt to rewrite history by Tom Wong.

[Pacman]

Historically it has already been said by many seniors who did that and the time line. Look at your wingchunpedia what does it say?
it wasnt yuen kay san, and from the other families that didnt have interaction with him yet still have 3 forms. This is not possible. You can take it or leave it.

First you say Ip Man learn from Yuen Kay San the forms, next you say taught a little chi sao, next you say they are different. If I learnt something from someone, it should be the same. And they are different, and so many other lineages have 3 forms. Even Pan Nam and Chan Wah Shun etc.... Clearly Yiu Choi did not learn from Yuen Kay San but Yuen Chai Wan. Yet he has 3 forms. Why does it say that Yuen, Ip and Yiu were asking Ng Chun So for instructions?
In chinese tradition, we can ask a senior for instructions in certain things, as in, a junior learning as a senior, however this doesnt mean he taught me officially as a sifu.
Your claims on Yuen and how he taught ip man so much of what he knows, the forms, the chi sao is far fetched. And Kwok Fu said, Ip man would stop them from practicing when Yuen came over.

Remembering their ancestors correctly is a very important part of chinese culture, as you can see the reason for this meeting. You should realise that now, and stop your slandering of Ip Man, his family and his descendants.

I get what Sifu Robert is saying in essense. However different people are doing what they interprete as well building on their experiences through training and fighting.

i already explained this. i acknowledged that other families that did not have interaction with YKS have only 3 forms and why. i also explained why YM looks different.

i also never said YKS taught YM 3 forms. I always said YKS taught chi sao. You inserted your own assumptions into what I said and changed it up. Now can you see why YM and YKS' WC can be so different? I am trying to pass knowledge down to you--it is the first generation and you already got it so wrong. Imagine what will happen to this story a few generations down.

i also already explained all of what you wrote-- why most people are just going to go along with the 3 heroes of WC line--because they dont want to offend anyone. they arent going to make a big deal about a house when the first movie came out but when they make YKS look like a nobody then they want to speak out.

also, you cant reference a private YM museum and quotes from YM descendants etc. That is like quoting the Bible to prove the Bible. That is why I referenced people, places, texts that are not biased such as Chan Wah Shun's grandson's book or the government run records etc. Of course I cannot produce a video of YKS doing this or that for obvious reasons.

If you go watch the proper Chinese news you will see Yuen Jo Tong yelling about his house at the tea pouring.

[Pacman]

Yes, you are CONFUSED. Very confused.

YKS WCK is simply a curriculum for teaching WCK. YM WCK is simply a curriculum for teaching WCK. They are two person's textbooks for teaching the same subject matter, WCK; two different ways of teaching someone how to ride a bike. A curriculum to teach you to ride isn't bike riding itself.

BTW, what most WCK people call "application" are imaginary examples of using their WCK. They are not really "application." Application is fighting. So when someone teaches application, they should really be teaching this-is-what-I-routinely-do-in-fighting. 99.9 %of the time we don't see that.



I'll take it -- as a feeble attempt to rewrite history by Tom Wong.

Terrence, every time you try to lecture people on what is WCK and what is not WCK it just gets more and more pathetic. Every time you try to lecture on how to train the same effect is produced.

If it has been 30+ years of training and you still aren't successful please just give up and do something else.

Where did Tom Wong come from all of a sudden? I never mentioned him. I did not get my information from him. I know many people in Guangdong and even met the widow of one of Sum Nung's students and others who were alive at the time. She personally witnessed YKS finger jabbing into a brick wall and pulling out a brick, she personally witnessed his ability to dent a Japanese soldier's helmet with his finger tips. I also met one of YM's first students. He said it was very well known in Fatsan at the time that YKS was the top master. No one came close.

[t_niehoff]

Terrence, every time you try to lecture people on what is WCK and what is not WCK it just gets more and more pathetic. Every time you try to lecture on how to train the same effect is produced.

That's not surprising coming someone who doesn't understand that "WCK is WCK".

If it has been 30+ years of training and you still aren't successful please just give up and do something else.

Oh, I'm doing fine since I met and trained with Robert.

Where did Tom Wong come from all of a sudden? I never mentioned him. I did not get my information from him.

Really? Then where did your info come from?

It came from Tom Wong. But, you'll try to deflect that by . . .

I know many people in Guangdong and even met the widow of one of Sum Nung's students and others who were alive at the time. She personally witnessed YKS finger jabbing into a brick wall and pulling out a brick, she personally witnessed his ability to dent a Japanese soldier's helmet with his finger tips.

Exactly. Oh, it wasn't Tom, it was these unnamed other people! "I met someone who told me . . .". Can't provide any names, can't provide any particulars, etc. And, on top of that, the stories are incredible (YKS could do magic!!). Yes, it is sound to rely on the unsubstantiated stories of unnamed people.

I also met one of YM's first students. He said it was very well known in Fatsan at the time that YKS was the top master. No one came close.

Typical. The "top master" -- ROFLOL!

What you guys who try to rewrite history in your favor never seem to grasp is that in the end you always end up looking like fanatical idiots and find that all your efforts only result in tarnishing your idol.

[Faruq]

its important to know though. in the movie they made yuen kay san look like sh!t
its not about putting yip man down, its about giving yuen kay san his proper respect

in the KF museum in foshan (like a hall of fame), sum nung and yuen kay san are there, based on their accomplishments. yip man is not. yip man only became famous after bruce lee became famous. not even people like wong fei hong were admitted. only after the "once upon a time in china" movies came out, did wong fei hong's students petition for him to be there

yuen kay san would fight these matches and tell the historian au sui jee to give credit to leung jan because he did not want to attract attention to himself and his family. as a result, leung jan gained a lot of notoriety.

the "3 heroes of wing chun" title did not exist at the time yuen kay san was alive. this came later and yuen kay san's grandson actually accepted it because he wanted to ride some of bruce lee's fame too.

in guangdong the perspective of WC is very different

How so? What are you saying?

[LSWCTN1]

I know many people in Guangdong and even met the widow of one of Sum Nung's students and others who were alive at the time. She personally witnessed YKS finger jabbing into a brick wall and pulling out a brick, she personally witnessed his ability to dent a Japanese soldier's helmet with his finger tips.

wasnt (and please correct me if i am wrong) Sum Nung 19 when he stopped training under the great YKS?

if that is the case then i severley doubt that his students wife was introduced to YKS, and that YKS gave a martial display?

please correct me if i am wrong.

[CFT]

also, you cant reference a private YM museum and quotes from YM descendants etc. That is like quoting the Bible to prove the Bible. That is why I referenced people, places, texts that are not biased such as Chan Wah Shun's grandson's book or the government run records etc. Of course I cannot produce a video of YKS doing this or that for obvious reasons.

Major mistake assuming that the book is unbiased. He has his own lineage to promote.

e.g. Chan Wah Sun beating Wong Fei Hung in a duel, which you now attribute to YKS.

[t_niehoff]

Major mistake assuming that the book is unbiased. He has his own lineage to promote.

e.g. Chan Wah Sun beating Wong Fei Hung in a duel, which you now attribute to YKS.

I counter his book with Leung Ting's "Roots of Wing Chun" which says that YKS was a scrub who hardly knew anything. I mean, if someone wrote it down in a book, it must be true.

[Pacman]

wasnt (and please correct me if i am wrong) Sum Nung 19 when he stopped training under the great YKS?

if that is the case then i severley doubt that his students wife was introduced to YKS, and that YKS gave a martial display?

please correct me if i am wrong.

Actually YKS died when SN was in his early 30s. Also, Sum Nung gained a good reputation early on and so he began teaching at a young age and so most of his students were older than him.

i get a lot of my information from people with roots in China. I dont go to Hawaii and Taiwan to learn about WC.

Some of the people I have spoken to over the years include

- The widow of Sum Nung's student, Cheung, who is also close to the Leung Sheung family
- Sum Nung's indoor student Kevin Chan (not the guy who teaches in SF)
- Historian Chow (forgot his given name at the moment)
- Master of Yao Gung Moon in LA
- Hung Ga Master in NY who told me everyone in Fatsan knows that no one comes close to the skills of Sum Nung and YKS(also forgot his name but its the same person who taught Robert Chu)
- Ng Jung from Hong Kong, who is a grandstudent of Wong Wah Bo. He demonstrated to me and Kevin Chan Wong Wah Bo's 12 forms and 108 movements for the 6.5 staff

Also I forgot until now, but there is a branch of WC called Pao Fa Lien, which has roots with Fung Siu Chung too. I believe that they have many open handed forms. I think a total of 12. Here is something I found on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiBMTLGfC3E

Anyways, here is another book I have by Hon Quon Guo. He is in Leung Jan's lineage.

Explanation of Leung Jan's 12 forms and 108 movements


Leung Jan's double sword and fork


Leung Jan's plum flower spear


Leung Jan's taming tiger form


the information I am giving is not secret by any means. you just have to go beyond quoting kwok fu and yip chun. as you can see most of my info comes from people who do not have a bias.