Body structure time to go to another level

[Hendrik]

I sure accept your view. Keep it for yourself. Thanks.

This is a perfect example of what I'm saying.

You are running away from the discussion, just like you always do.

If you faced the reasons why so many people don't agree with you, then you wouldn't have to constantly repost so many redundant threads.

Fwiw... I accept dynamic flow and much of your reasonings behind it. What I don't accept is your incessant need to put down other concepts to promote your own.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Yup. and most still stay at the static posture level.

and your so called structure test if it is perform similar to the Chinese Street performers show those are just mechanics tricks. how the heck is this type of stuffs could be use in dynamic situation?

I wonder if anyone asking themself, why is their so called structure doesnt natually work in real life dynamic situation.


In general, most will kick like Karate or Box like boxing while train their structure in YJYKM and thinking they have the structure but they dont have it.


Why? because their structure doesnt have the signature of Comes accept Goes return....etc.


But obviously most will say " I have it tooo" disregards of knowing what is what.

I think that I agree with you guys.
Structure is a bad term. Usually when people talk about structure, they are referring to their fighting shell which should be an athletic position or series of athletic positions to allow one to attack and defend effectively. For some reason, as soon as the term structure is thrown out for use people start talking about their fighting shell like they are building a house or trying to resist some a crushing force. I am embarrassed for a lot of people when they discuss structure.

[Hendrik]

You hit the nail directly.

IMHO,

This so called "I have it too structure race" starts about 11 years ago when Robert Chu published his article on his structure test.

After that article every one knowing it or not get into the "I have it too mode" and things get spiral into confusion even thought everyone who claim " I have it too" doesnt realize what Robert really means. some even pull the stunt of claiming their structure is from ancient school...etc .

So blame on Robert on this totally screw up. hahahaha


IT has been almost a decade I told Robert an upgrade needs to be brought up because it is the dynamic structure which is the key and one could trace where these dynamic signature to its mother art. and most mistaken standing in a certain posture and how to pass the structure test...etc as the it. Nope it is not the it.


Like I told Jim Roselando that one dont stand in Zhan Zhuang to get advance power generation. One is using Zhan Zhuang and while at Zhan Zhuang to investigate and orbit in the energy level to get advance power generation. So, anyone who mimic Zhan Zhuang thinking they got it all is dreaming and never get there. Physical posture or shell is just not it.

I think that I agree with you guys.
Structure is a bad term. Usually when people talk about structure, they are referring to their fighting shell which should be an athletic position or series of athletic positions to allow one to attack and defend effectively. For some reason, as soon as the term structure is thrown out for use people start talking about their fighting shell like they are building a house or trying to resist some a crushing force. I am embarrassed for a lot of people when they discuss structure.

[HumbleWCGuy]

IT has been almost a decade I told Robert an upgrade needs to be brought up because it is the dynamic structure which is the key and one could trace where these dynamic signature to its mother art. and most mistaken standing in a certain posture and how to pass the structure test...etc as the it. Nope it is not the it.

Admittedly, I only started paying attention to other brands of WC a few years ago. The nonsensical talk surrounding structure and pressure as if they are static entities has given me pause. If Robert popularized the structure concept then he definitely needs to clarify his position because there are enough people who misunderstand.

[HumbleWCGuy]

haha, of course WCK for you doesn't have these things. Because for one, you don't fight or even spar with your wing chun, you only talk. If you did actually spar, you might understand wck isn't only about 'just flow' - it doesn't work that way. How'd that work for you in your encounter with Chi Sim?
And for you, WCK doesn't have these things because WCK for you is a hodge podge mixture of snake, crane, ermei, and whatever tai chi you've been reading about lately while you're hooked up to your EKG machine.

And it's clear you don't have the first idea what Bai Jong or facing is even about. The first concept we learn in WC is Center Line. How can this even work in relation to your opponent without facing? So I'm guessing you'll be telling us you don't have CL theory in your wing chun either...

Hendrik uses a lot of flowery language and training techniques. He is very internally focused at times, but I think that if you get to the heart of what he is saying you can find a lot of common ground. For example, concerning a bai jong or lack there of in Hendrik's case: Here is what happens when you start training a young fighter. You teach them an on-guard position. In my system we start teaching front body WC. After a few years we start teaching them side-body WC. Here they begin to learn about how varying degrees of being sideways affect their effectiveness with various techniques and how to use alternative hand postures to facilitate different strategies. A young fighter starts to learn but is usually stuck in that basic Bai Jong mold. Older fighters, 15+ years of experience rotate through bai jongs or shells making them hard to figure out. At that point, it could be said that these fighters have no on-guard correct? The best example of this currently is Anderson Silva. If you watch him fight he switches between MT and TKD shells and uses subtle variations within those arts to embarrass opponents. With Anderson's mental flexibility in the ring he could extend his career well past his physical prime.

I have no idea as to whether or not Hendrik is a great fighter but I can say with a degree of certainty that his understanding of WC is at a very high-level. His views should not be dismissed out of hand. Also, if you pay close attention, he will give you glimpses in to things that we should be striving for as we transition from a young to middle-aged to elder martial artists. That way you don't turn into bitter 50+ year old message board trolls like some on this forum .


I am not saying that I agree with everything that Hendrik says. For example, he doesn't buy into the notion of strategy. I believe that it is a necessary part of teaching a young fighter and getting them optimally prepared for situations where we can no something about their opponent. Strategy is a huge part of sport application. However, he has a point when it comes to street fighting, where you kind of just have to react because you don't have a tape to study on a mugger. Although, I believe there are some consistent truths about street fights that can be exploited.

Consider this though too. I have had probably 7-10 street fights and probably another 10-15 physical altercations. Out of all of that, I have spent about 5 seconds in a martial arts stance not counting the time when I subdued one guy and warded off his buddy by displaying my "stance." In a street altercation, you just can't tip your hand to the opponent. Jumping into a stance is they kind of thing that gets people shot. My instructor tells this story of a MAist who was arguing with a street fighter. The MAist jumps into a stance to kick the street fighter pulls a knife and sticks it in the MAists ankle. In a street fight, a bai jong is typically an after thought that is only considered after an opponent weathers your initial attack. I would be surprised if too many "street-minded" instructors are telling their students to hop into a stance at the first sign of trouble.

[canglong]

originally posted by hendrik
For me, WCK doenst have those because it is just flow. There is no reset in flow. No Bai Jong is needed, no facing is needed. It just comes accept, goes return.....

hendrik your inability to understand these things and your inexperience using these tools leaves you attempting to fill in gaps you are unqualified to answer. You don't seem to understand that when Bruce said then I learned that a punch is just a punch that required both understanding and experience both of which you have very little of.

When your structure was challenged by chi sim there was no flow, there was no balance and there were no answers. Your answers only come out on paper or on the computer. But there was no qi left in your red face when you lost your balance and flow to chi sim, because first there was no understanding nor enough experience of bai jong, duei ying, faat qing etc, which then leads to good loi lau hoi sung.

hendrik as you sat on the ground you were unable to demonstrate the beginning level of a white sash judo student or beginning level tai chi student and with statements such as the one above now whe know why. So it should not suprise anyone here that without this training and experience all anyone would get for their trouble with a chi sim guy or judo guy is a sore @ss and a red face just like yours as you were left shouting "that is not wing chun" as if you would know.

Your teaching Jim Rodelando may be considered the blind leading the blind as you get frustrated by his slow progress and he gets frustrated with your poor communication skills which in part may be due to your lack of understanding how wing chun works as demonstrated by your lack of understanding beginning tools such as bai jong. Right now all Jim may have learned from you is that a punch is just a punch and he may never reach the level of understanding that is required to understand that a punch is just a punch.

[SavvySavage]

Hendrik,

do you study in Honolulu, Hawaii? My friend went to a few wing chun classes and said they don't talk about strategy, don't do simultaneous attack and defend, don't do any drills with partners seperated such as I punch you and you defend. The ONLY thing they do is sensitivity drills like push hands. The teacher said he studied with Hawkins Cheung. These guys have any relation to you?

Honolulu sucks by the way in case anyone is wondering.

[Hendrik]

I am not saying that I agree with everything that Hendrik says. For example, he doesn't buy into the notion of strategy. I believe that it is a necessary part of teaching a young fighter and getting them optimally prepared for situations where we can no something about their opponent. Strategy is a huge part of sport application. However, he has a point when it comes to street fighting, where you kind of just have to react because you don't have a tape to study on a mugger. Although, I believe there are some consistent truths about street fights that can be exploited.

.

You have a great point. My not buying into the notion of strategy is because I dont want to lead anyone into tunnel vision or in a simple word, one sees what his strategy but missed the reality. That is a big problem in fight such as a street fight.

For me, the ultimate is Zen. meaning one no longer using the mind but bypassed it. Using mind with a strategy can get one run automatic and get blinded.

There is nothing wrong with strategy if one knows how to switch off from running automatic and blinded oneself.


Thus, with no strategy, there is no expectation of the situation, and there is no suprise to shock oneself. Thus, one just flow with it using WCK's Way or philosophy, " comes accept, goes return....etc" . That is Zen That is Dao.

and Fear comes from expectation which is shattered via shock. once one in that shock/fear state one is gone or the physical is totally disarm. That is the issue with strategy when the strategy is broken. No strategy, no predetermination, no expectation, nothing to be break and not shock/fear state.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

do you study in Honolulu, Hawaii? My friend went to a few wing chun classes and said they don't talk about strategy, don't do simultaneous attack and defend, don't do any drills with partners seperated such as I punch you and you defend. The ONLY thing they do is sensitivity drills like push hands. The teacher said he studied with Hawkins Cheung. These guys have any relation to you?

Honolulu sucks by the way in case anyone is wondering.

1. you dont understand me. You still have many journey to go through and more witches in the alice of wonder land to meet.

2, fighting is about random and broken rythm, no one can step into the same flowing water twice.

3, stuck in you thinking, your training and your strategy is only giving you lots of false security. it only take to shock you and lead you into the chill fear once and your opponent will disarm you totally including dissolve your confident all the way.

4, confident and courage is from letting go of everyting and accepting everything and anything without thinking and strategy. With a will, I will take you down. ofcause there are millions of drills and practice and ....etc action instead of fantasy with mind to support that state.

[Hendrik]

Thanks for your view again. I totally accept your view because you are who you are.
Not intended to change you or your logic. You like to use your mind to speculate that is fine with me.

Now, this will be my last response to you here because I am not interested in your speculation based on your logic for that is not a reality for me.





One note I would like you to know is.

You are putting words in Chi Sim's mouth and step on Jim without bases. Making up his-story about others....etc. How is this a behavior of Yee in Chinese? HOw is this accord to your Hung Fa Yee's Moduk and righteousness teaching?

Well, I leave that to Garret Gee. Since it is his responsible and not my issue on your Moduk and how you reflect Garret Gee's teaching of MoDuk.

hendrik your inability to understand these things and your inexperience using these tools leaves you attempting to fill in gaps you are unqualified to answer. You don't seem to understand that when Bruce said then I learned that a punch is just a punch that required both understanding and experience both of which you have very little of.

When your structure was challenged by chi sim there was no flow, there was no balance and there were no answers. Your answers only come out on paper or on the computer. But there was no qi left in your red face when you lost your balance and flow to chi sim, because first there was no understanding nor enough experience of bai jong, duei ying, faat qing etc, which then leads to good loi lau hoi sung.

hendrik as you sat on the ground you were unable to demonstrate the beginning level of a white sash judo student or beginning level tai chi student and with statements such as the one above now whe know why. So it should not suprise anyone here that without this training and experience all anyone would get for their trouble with a chi sim guy or judo guy is a sore @ss and a red face just like yours as you were left shouting "that is not wing chun" as if you would know.

Your teaching Jim Rodelando may be considered the blind leading the blind as you get frustrated by his slow progress and he gets frustrated with your poor communication skills which in part may be due to your lack of understanding how wing chun works as demonstrated by your lack of understanding beginning tools such as bai jong. Right now all Jim may have learned from you is that a punch is just a punch and he may never reach the level of understanding that is required to understand that a punch is just a punch.

[canglong]

hendrik you are without a doubt the only person on this forum that if given a koan from the Buddha would answer with your own amenable psycho babble. Most of the people here either speak from experience or share what it is they have been taught in their martial art studies. The principle employed in what they share is derived from the sincerity with which they share these things but not you your post are not sincere your arguments are not sincere and least of all your motives for being here are not sincere.

You have nothing to add about bai jong we can move onto moduk. Our HFY Grandmaster like many many professional teachers of martial arts is usually busy teaching, traveling, writing or practicing his arts again things you obviously know little about judging from your post. Again like many many others he is capable of walking the walk and talking the talk you yourself by your own admission claim not to even practice wing chun yet here you stay writing about it day and night. Generally speaking moduk is something taught in the home possibly enhanced on the mat but more a responsibility of the parents than a busy professional teacher. Fortunately we have more than enough of your post to judge the ability of Mr. & Mrs Santos Senior and their ability to impart moduk to you. hendrik does your sifu have a name? well that doesn't even matter because I am sure he too had many students yet your parents only had one child to teach. You hendrik are not doing your parents any favors with you frivolous personal attacks, your poor communication skills, your incessant rants, your insincerity and your unfiltered and endless portrail of your unpleasant traits over and over again on the same topics trying to continually feed off the new, the young and the ill informed. Typically we don't judge our own moduk we let others do that and I am perfectly happy to let mine stand next to yours.

[Hendrik]

Why WCK doesnt do Bai Jong or Kiu Sau stuffs?

In today's language, Chinese martial art emphasis strongly on Open the Door method or Hoi Muun Faat. It is from the Open the Door method one could see the signature of the art.

So, what is Open the Door method? it simply says view an opponent as a Door. and how to Open that Door so that you could get into the door and empty out what within the door. is the Open the Door method/technic or Hoi Muun Faat.


Now, there are different ways to open door based on different style. and in WCK, the philosophy is using the Center line theory to identify/ locate the opponent's door and using pull, push, and side way/ updown way to open the door or lock up/lacthing open the door with other side of the door.. And, in the same time, DO NOT let your Opponent to know or have a handle on your own door.


So, this is where the Flow comes in. Flow means DO NOT LET your opponent to find out your door ( no bai jong or static structure or shell) in addition to not give a handle ( no Kiu sau or bridge hand) to your opponent to handle you.

Thus, when one is doing those Bai Jong stuffs, they are exposing their door. May be in other style, that is their intention or strenght...etc but not in WCK. because that is counter WCK's philosophy. Also, one doesnt do the Kiu Sau/ bridge hand as other style because Kiu Sau / bridge hand is the handle of the door. WCK simply dont like others to using WCner's bridge to find, get into or handle the WCner's door.


As the Kuen Kuit says. Kiu Lai Kiu Siong Go, or when there is a bridge, across the bridge to open the door for entering.






What I am saying above is my view on what is WCK. and how can we know that is true ? Simple. Check into the following WCK Kuen Kuit/ concept.





1, Loi Lao Hoi Sung

Loi Lao Hoi Sung (Lai Liu Qu Song) breaks down as follows: Loi represents 'wheat' but has come to mean 'to come, or arrive'; Lao represents 'stopping like a barred door in a water-channeled field' and means means 'to remain, stay, detain, or delay'; Hoi represents 'an (altered) person lacking in straight-forwardness' and means "to go, or remove"; Sung represents 'the merged stepping and stopping of movement around the dowry given to slaves' and means 'to give, to escort, to accompany or to send off.' Together, they mean 'stay with what comes, send off what goes', 'detain what arrives, escort what is removed', etc.



2, Lut Sao Jik Jong


Lut Sao Jik Jong (Shuai Shou Zhi Chong) breaks down as follows: Lut represents a derivative of ' use' to suggest 'disposal' and means 'to throw off, leave behind, or set free'; Sao represents 'the hand' and is extended to 'the arm'; Jik represents 'ten eyes seeing nothing hidden', and means 'straight forward'; Jong represents 'serious marching' and means 'to charge, or thrust'. Together, they mean 'the free hand charges straight forward'.





The above 2 is presenting the WCK signature doesnt do BLOCK.
it is using push, pull, slide, and walk in from the open to handle and Open the Door.











3, Yao Ying Da Ying


Yao Ying Da Ying (You Xing Da Xing) breaks down as follows: Yao represents 'right hand grabbing (altered) meat' and means 'to have, possess, exist'; Ying represents 'lines of equal height' and means 'shape or form'; Da represents 'nailing with hand' and means 'to hit, punch, fight, or do'; Ying, the second time, is a repeat of the first. Together, they mean 'have shape, hit shape'.



4, Mo Ying Da Yieng


Mo Ying Da Yieng (Wu Xing Da Ying) breaks down as follows: Mo represents, in its later form, 'forest destroyed by a multitude of people' and means 'not, no, without'; Ying represents 'lines of equal height' and means 'shape or form'; Da represents 'nailing with hand' and means 'to hit, punch, fight, or do'; Yieng represents 'shape like the scenic sun above the hill' and means 'shadow or impression'. Together, they can mean 'no shape, strike impression'.



5, Yao Ying Juk Lao

Yao Ying Juk Lao (You Ying Xu Lui) breaks down as follows: Yao represents 'right hand grabbing (altered) meat' and means 'to have, possess, exist'; Yieng represents 'shape like the scenic sun above the hill' and means 'shadow or impression'; Juk represents 'thread outward purchase' and means 'continue, renew, extend'; Lao represents 'stopping like a barred door in a water-channeled field' and means means 'to remain, stay, detain, or delay'. Together, they mean 'have impression, continue to stay'.



6, Mo Yieng Po Jung

Mo Yieng Po Jung (Wu Ying Po Zhong) breaks down as follows: Mo represents, in its later form, 'forest destroyed by a multitude of people' and means 'not, no, without'; Yieng represents 'shape like the scenic sun above the hill' and means 'shadow or impression'; Po represents 'stones and the hand-held hide of an animal' and means 'break or cleave'; Jung represents 'line bisecting an enclosure' and means means 'center or middle'. Together, they mean 'no impression, cleave the center'.




3, 4, 5, 6, tell one in more in depth what to do while open the opponent's door and also NOT practice what it was said on revealing one's own door to give the opponents the chance. In this case, Good luck if one stuck with Bai Jong, Static structure, or Shell, or different type of Bridge.



Thus, We can see, WCK is about flow, WCK is about adaptive. and the WCK structure is Dynamic -- It is continuously changing and adaptive.


Further more, at very advance level of WCK. One doesnt even want to use rooting...etc because that become a handle for the opponents to open the door.

Dont believe me, get those who knows how to root to play with you in the thick wrestling mat. This way, 1, they will have a difficulties to root because the wrestling mat reflex the force vectors different then the solid ground. 2, they will got a problem in stabiliez their own COG themself, even at Bai Jong.

So, what is it in the advance level? that is where the six directional vectors force come into play. This is similar to saying, one could build a water tower with Earthly physic, like put a good foundation to support the water tower. However, when it comes to launching a rocket or space shutter in space. There is no ground or earth, it is only how to manual the six directional force vectors.


Learn to be smart and got to be scientific and realistic to make logical sense. Some says I use flowery term. in fact it is not flowery term it means something. So, today, I hope you know. NOPE the six directional force vectors generation is not the same with the Rooting grounding....etc. Rooting grounding is just a subset of the six directional force vectors generation which is providing even more flexibility and adaptive and accelearte ability then the common rooting or grounding. One simply doesnt need to always ground the incoming force. one could use it to accerelate to bounce away....etc.

It is flow. it is play. it is dynamic. what is so difficult to understand WCK? only three things. comes accep, goes return, open thrust forward. Every technics can be use without limitation as soon as one doesnt contradict with the comes accep....etc.

Sure, there are advance power generation stuffs...etc which needs to be learn but does one even have the basic? or learning the concept of WCK but keep maintaining the habit of karate punch, baijong, bridge... like the other southern china martial art..... ?

and Why 90% of people cant make their WCK work and has to turn into mixing with other stuffs? Because one doesnt follow WCK's concept instruction as above. It is just six kuen kuit above. that is. why spend a life time get stuck?




For me, disregard of it is YIP Man WCK , YKS WCK, Ku Lao WCK, or Yik Kam WCK of Cho Gar, those are the core of WCK.

IMHO. Look at the 70's movie on the description of WCK. look how they present the come accept, goes return, open trust forward in the pull, push, slide....etc.

You dont like my post and disagree with me? fine. I accept that and expect that. argue with me in technical term. I am open minded with those. But will not response in any kind of cultist defensive attack.

I show you the core of WCK above. if you disagree with me bring up your evident and let's investigate.

and ofcause, things evolve after hundred of years moving out of Red boat. Even in the Yik Kam lineage for Cho Gar things evolve. and there is nothing wrong with it and totally perfect and respected.

However, if one like to get dig deep into what is WCK then one cant avoid the face what is the core. Thus, Here I am not saying who's WCK is not WCK or who's WCK is the original WCK. What I am saying is WCK of the past has a common signature disregard how one implement it be it from IP MAN to Yik Kam...etc.



PS. Thanks Rene for keeping and preserving the Kuen Kuit Writing in his site which I am using above.

[Hendrik]

Thanks for your view. I am sending you lots of love here.

As for your own issue that I leave it for you to settle them yourself since your post is irrivalent to this topic of discussion.

I Always accept you and love you as who you are.

hendrik you are without a doubt the only person on this forum that if given a koan from the Buddha would answer with your own amenable psycho babble. Most of the people here either speak from experience or share what it is they have been taught in their martial art studies. The principle employed in what they share is derived from the sincerity with which they share these things but not you your post are not sincere your arguments are not sincere and least of all your motives for being here are not sincere.

You have nothing to add about bai jong we can move onto moduk. Our HFY Grandmaster like many many professional teachers of martial arts is usually busy teaching, traveling, writing or practicing his arts again things you obviously know little about judging from your post. Again like many many others he is capable of walking the walk and talking the talk you yourself by your own admission claim not to even practice wing chun yet here you stay writing about it day and night. Generally speaking moduk is something taught in the home possibly enhanced on the mat but more a responsibility of the parents than a busy professional teacher. Fortunately we have more than enough of your post to judge the ability of Mr. & Mrs Santos Senior and their ability to impart moduk to you. hendrik does your sifu have a name? well that doesn't even matter because I am sure he too had many students yet your parents only had one child to teach. You hendrik are not doing your parents any favors with you frivolous personal attacks, your poor communication skills, your incessant rants, your insincerity and your unfiltered and endless portrail of your unpleasant traits over and over again on the same topics trying to continually feed off the new, the young and the ill informed. Typically we don't judge our own moduk we let others do that and I am perfectly happy to let mine stand next to yours.

[taai gihk yahn]

But there was no qi left in your red face when you lost your balance and flow to chi sim,...
hendrik as you sat on the ground ....

You like to use your mind to speculate that is fine with me. .

sounds like Hendrick got unceremoniously dumped on his rear by someone (not surprising, given the miserable structure he demonstrated in that video of him doing standing practice - I shudder to think what he must look like when actively engaged w/another person); now, I wonder how exactly is that "speculation"? seems pretty concrete, lol...

Canglong: you have essentially reiterated what myself and several others on here have been stating for some time now: Hendrick engages in baiting, passive-aggressive, mock-humble, ersatz "I accept you all" posturing; it is pointless even to engage him directly, it gets you no where; just sayin'

[canglong]

The only issues here are the facts that neither you nor Robert understand the difference between copying words off of a blackboard and the profound difference of understanding and conveying the meaning and concepts those words represent. The principles of wing chun must be expressed or it is not wing chun plain and simple. Plainly put first you must know yourself. Secondly know your opponent. Be able to express center line and kiu sau concepts used to connect A and B.

Bai Jong expresses point A the opponent is point B and the Kiu sau and center line concept are expressed and used to connects those 2 points. Without this expression there can be no wing chun and hendrik you said your wing chun did not have this so either you don't know the purpose and meaning of bai jong or you don't know wing chun or both.

So we have wing chun's principles, theories and concepts or we have hendrik's pancake theory where you end up flat on your @ss and red faced because you have no concept of bai jong or center line.