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------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by GlennR
WC and boxing have quite different body usages and have different paths for developing the skills and strategies and tactics(BTW I have done both activities ). Hence-What is meant by positioning will also differ.
Folks can keep on "debating".
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And i think this is what TC is getting at.I'm not sure what clip of Alan Orr you are looking at but from my perspective what I see of his clips involve a lot of hip in pressure which exerts a lot of forward intent on the bridge. That pressure and the key off of what it opens to me are the salient points on his methods. Of course Robert Chu's structure is at the base of it, and his hips in structure tests are commonly known on this forum. I think if you look at his guys MMA fights which are public clips they definitely have structure hitting based on those fundamentals.
I agree with you about alans clips, you can see the structure in the strikes, you know they are going to hurt.
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Absolutely Joy, as you know i box now.
TC's point is that some of the "shots" in the sparring clips just didn't have structure in them, it was a bit of a game of tag which is fair enough.
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Yes yes yes. I learned in wing chun to always strike with solid hits with my body behind them never never never to slap or play tag. Same when I box. Different mechanics same intent.
When I do chi sau always try to hit solidly with my body.
Here is something I learn the hard way also you cannot prevent your opponent whether you are sparring or doing chi sau from touching you or slapping you. The action is too fast takes no body and so forth. Even someone with little skill can tag a good boxer. The grandmaster of tai ji has a video where he is getting slapped in push hands.
I learned to not care or try to deal with slaps or tags or touches. They cannot hurt you and are not a threat. If someone throws slaps I hit them solidly. Is this trading punches? I will let you throw pebbles while I hit you with bricks. You cannot stop him from throwing pebbles. Do not waste your time trying to deal with them.
The other thing is we want our opponent to try to strike us. Anytime you strike it creates an opening. So if someone is slapping the are creating openings which is the cost of striking and getting nothing in return. They are giving you a gift. If I strike which of course creates an opening I am getting the most out of it I can.
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The ground pushes back? You really believe the ground pushes back? The ground never pushes you unless there is an earthquake or avalanche.
This is a great example of taking something that is obvious to a child and dressing it up in pretentious terminology to make the people who use it sound knowledgable.
We push off against the ground to move our body.
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We move our body in everything we do by pushing against the ground.
Vector force. Stop it. Stop it. You are sounding like crazy Hendrik. There is no such thing.
He is not hitting solidly he is slapping. The two are opposites. You can tell a solid strike with the body behind it by the response when it lands like when you hit a ball right.You are contradicting yourself. Jerry is hitting lightly but solidly because of his structure and timing. Solidly seems to mean whatever you want it to mean, bit of a shifting goalpost. That's the problem with non-specific language
The other thing is if he was trying to hit solidly with his body his range would be much closer.
Here is the deal I look at this sparring from my perspective and give my opinion. My perspective is that you always away always try to strike solidly with your body. Period. That this is the root skill the stem the basis for everything else you do. I know that if you are not striking solidly with your body and your opponent is he will run straight through you like hot knife through butter. That is what I look for when I look at sparring. I do not see this in the video.They are not always doing batting practice. Also, if you watch cricket batting practice at all you will often see batsmen parrying and not putting any solid hit (apart from structural connection to the ground) into their stroke at all. They are working a different aspect of the game. It seems you only like simplistic games.
No damage? What damage do you think slapping does?Correction. The Jerry clip shows him hitting lightly but with structure and force transmission into his opponent. The Orr clip shows people working hard but hitting inefficiently and without structure making the whole thing rather a waste of time. A lot of puff and effort but no damage.
The difference is that the Orr video shows two guys trying to hit solidly with their body behind the strike and the Jerry video does not. The waste of time is sparring when you are slapping.
When some people see guys like the Orr people training they think that is not how I think wing chun should be that I would do this or that differently. People can have all kinds of ideas. As I have said before it is not a question of whose idea is better but who can execute or perform their idea better that matters. The fight goes to the guy who performs better.
The Orr guys are practicing wing chun striking and hitting solidly with their bodies. You can see the also do this in their chi sau. You can also see it in their fights on YouTube.
No no no that is not what I am saying. I am saying that when you see that the most important most basic skill and the stem of everything else is solid striking with your body behind it then that is something you will focus on in everything you do. You will not think about slapping or playing tag.I don't think anyone is denying the essential nature of actually hitting the ball with the bat sometimes. I am merely taking issue with your idea of throwing people a bat and ball and telling them to get on with it. Your approach is a low skill approach. You seem to forget that wing chun is an intelligent martial art
There is no such thing as an intelligent martial art. This is one thing people say to make themselves feel superior.
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"Pretentious terminology"???!!!! Man, you really are convinced that you know it all and everyone else is wrong, aren't you? Did you bother to look it up? I told you it is a common concept and term used in biomechanics and you respond with "dressing it up in pretentious terminology" to sound "knowledgable"? I told you that "ground reaction force" actually is a real thing and this is your response? You do some boxing and sparring progression and that makes you an expert on Wing Chun. I've got news for you. I am a physician trained in Physical Medicine and Rehab and I run the amputee service at Walter Reed National Military Medical Center. So I know a little bit about biomechanics. I'm done with you. You can continue to live in your own little world. I initially thought you were different than some of the other trolls around here. I guess I was wrong.
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Simple physics mate
You are contradicting yourself again. You said that hitting lightly with the body (structure) behind is perfectly possible before. I agree. This is what we see in this clip.He is not hitting solidly he is slapping. The two are opposites. You can tell a solid strike with the body behind it by the response when it lands like when you hit a ball right.
Depends what you mean by solidly. If solidly = hard then you take issue with almost all sports coaches in almost all disciplines. Continue to plough your own furrow. If you mean with correct body mechanics and structure then I agree and this is what we see in this clip.Here is the deal I look at this sparring from my perspective and give my opinion. My perspective is that you always away always try to strike solidly with your body. Period.
It would be rather odd to "run straight through you like a hot knife through butter" in an exchange of skills where light contact was agreed beforehand. I think you watch too many youtube clips and don't get to enough boxing or MT gyms. Nobody is sparring hard every time. Doing so leads unsustainable damage.That this is the root skill the stem the basis for everything else you do. I know that if you are not striking solidly with your body and your opponent is he will run straight through you like hot knife through butter.
Jerry's timing, body movement and structure are such that it is easy for him to apply damaging force to his opponent in the clip but he refrains from doing so because of the rules. He is where he needs to be when he needs to be there with the correct impetus and timing. He shows skill. The Orr clips shows two guys throwing dumb bombs with a lot of muscular physical exertion but no timing, poor structure, lack of momentum, and low quality movement. The result is that they get tired but neither gets hurt.No damage? What damage do you think slapping does?
The Orr group chi sau clips I have seen are a bit of a joke to be honest. They compare even less favorably than this light sparring vs heavy body sparring comparison. I don't think Orr understands the purpose of chi sau very well.The Orr guys are practicing wing chun striking and hitting solidly with their bodies. You can see the also do this in their chi sau. You can also see it in their fights on YouTube.
Hard sparring at every opportunity is an error that does not allow the development of sophisticated skill set. The clip you posted provides ample evidence of this. They need to break it down into little bits and start again. Chi sau would be a good place to start correcting the numerous errors.No no no that is not what I am saying. I am saying that when you see that the most important most basic skill and the stem of everything else is solid striking with your body behind it then that is something you will focus on in everything you do. You will not think about slapping or playing tag.
I think you feel superior with your tough it out in the gym mantra, but the fact is that wing chun is a principle driven MA. By intelligent this is what I mean. It is ideas based. Another example of a principle driven MA is brazillian jiu jitsu. Examples of non principle driven MA are boxing, wrestling and muay thai. Without understanding the principles you have no hope of doing good wing chun. This is not to say you cannot develop usable fighting skills via other methods, but they will not be wing chun.There is no such thing as an intelligent martial art. This is one thing people say to make themselves feel superior.
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I am not a know it all and I do not need to try and impress people with my education. You may know a lot about biomechanics and be a MD. I have just a little bit of common sense and I think that is all we need. The boxers and wing chun people of the past were not MDs and did not study biomechanics and vector mechanics and yet seem to have done ok for themselves.
Of course we push off from the ground to move our bodies as I said any child can tell you that. You want to label that ground reaction force? In that case every single body movement we do on the ground is ground reaction force right?
You still did not answer my question though do you really think the ground pushes you back? Of course you do not you are an educated man. So why did you say that then? Why say something that is not true? Why do you not just say things as they really are? Do you see that is my point that this type of terminology misleads us and makes us think things are different than they really are. We start thinking vectors really exist or that we are using power from the ground and things like that.
I do not like trying to label things to sound scientific or esoteric when they are really simple things in every day life. If this makes me a troll then I guess I am a troll.
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That’s 101% correct.
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No vectors are mathematical constructs like are cartesian coordinates to explain or describe things they do not really exist in reality. Thinking in terms of vectors in martial arts is pointless since forces are constantly changing and in flux.
I am saying that slapping cannot be solid hitting with the body behind it. Yes you can hit lightly and solidly with the body in the strike but the quality and the effect is very different than striking.You are contradicting yourself again. You said that hitting lightly with the body (structure) behind is perfectly possible before. I agree. This is what we see in this clip.
We are going round in circles I already explained this. You can hit a baseball solidly whether you swing hard or lightly it is the quality of the impact the connection and so forth that tells you. It is the feeedback from hitting the ball that tells you whether your mechanics structure timing and so forth were right or not. If you do not hit the ball or you do not hit it solidly then the mechanics structure and timing were off. Do you see that the hitting of the ball is critical it is what guides you in correcting everything else? So you can't say someone had good structure or timing or mechanics except by their performance in striking. You can't say well they could have hit the ball well if they wanted to.Depends what you mean by solidly. If solidly = hard then you take issue with almost all sports coaches in almost all disciplines. Continue to plough your own furrow. If you mean with correct body mechanics and structure then I agree and this is what we see in this clip.
You can spar lightly and run over someone. It has been done to me so I know. Even solid light shots with the body in them will jolt you. Start putting them together jolt after jolt after jolt and you get the picture. A good solid jab with the body behind it that lands at 30% power will snap your head back.It would be rather odd to "run straight through you like a hot knife through butter" in an exchange of skills where light contact was agreed beforehand. I think you watch too many youtube clips and don't get to enough boxing or MT gyms. Nobody is sparring hard every time. Doing so leads unsustainable damage.
You are saying Jerry could have hit the ball solidly if he had wanted to. I am saying that that is what makes it poor sparring that he is not hitting the ball solidly and he is not even trying to. Yes he shows some skill but that is easy to do when your opponent is not really trying to land good shots.Jerry's timing, body movement and structure are such that it is easy for him to apply damaging force to his opponent in the clip but he refrains from doing so because of the rules. He is where he needs to be when he needs to be there with the correct impetus and timing. He shows skill.
They were sparring not trying to hurt the other guy. They get tired because guess what? fighting or sparring when you are really trying to hit someone and they are really trying to hit you is tiring.The Orr clips shows two guys throwing dumb bombs with a lot of muscular physical exertion but no timing, poor structure, lack of momentum, and low quality movement. The result is that they get tired but neither gets hurt.
You have a different idea that is OK. I would not call it a joke since his training produces guys who can fight using their wing chun and do it at a high level. Can you beat Baum or his fighters? Can you successfully fight pro mma fighters? Are you going to tell me no I can't beat them but they are doing it all wrong and it is a joke and I know how things should really be done?The Orr group chi sau clips I have seen are a bit of a joke to be honest. They compare even less favorably than this light sparring vs heavy body sparring comparison. I don't think Orr understands the purpose of chi sau very well.
We all have ideas of how we want things to work or how we think they should work. That does not mean they do work like we want them to or will work like we want them to. The only way to know is by doing it. You may not like how they do things but they can do them and they can do them at a high level.
I only used that video to illustrate that here were guys who obviously at least to me have trained with a good fight trainer because I can see that they are hitting solidly with their body and they are focusing on doing that. That is all.
Sophisticated skill set? You gotta stop. Wing chun has a very very simple skill set.Hard sparring at every opportunity is an error that does not allow the development of sophisticated skill set. The clip you posted provides ample evidence of this. They need to break it down into little bits and start again. Chi sau would be a good place to start correcting the numerous errors.
I do not feel superior to anyone. I told you before yes wing chun has principles but they are they to help you use the tools or techniques of the art. No matter what your principles if you do not have the skills or abilites to use tools you will fail. The principles of bjj won't help you unless you have technique. The principles help you use those techniques most effectively. In boxing por wing chun por mt or any striking art the most important basic skill on which everything else depends in your ability to hit solidly with your body behind it. Without that skill your principles will be useless.I think you feel superior with your tough it out in the gym mantra, but the fact is that wing chun is a principle driven MA. By intelligent this is what I mean. It is ideas based. Another example of a principle driven MA is brazillian jiu jitsu. Examples of non principle driven MA are boxing, wrestling and muay thai. Without understanding the principles you have no hope of doing good wing chun. This is not to say you cannot develop usable fighting skills via other methods, but they will not be wing chun.
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Keith,
I am getting old, come visit me sometimes if you like, I will give you the process of developing force path and force flow in snt , . And will coach you for you to be able to do the basic. Three days will be able to do it, and let you judge what it is yoursel after you experience it. . As I have shared with Mike , Narvin, Jim Rosalendo,..... And more who had visited me.
After that you can use it in any scientific experiment you like to. Or get monitor your force trajectory path in your body. It is a technology. Not difficult at all. No magic, no super power. But ordinary human and physics manipulation . This part of Wck is not just brute force. If Wck 1960 is about geometric shape and static mechanic , Wck 2010 is dynamic mechanic. The physic lab can prove that .
Proving the handling with physic monitoring is the best thing I love, because it shows what reality and facts are. I am not the best fighter, the super man, the know it all, but to handle the force flow is not that difficult for me even under the massive monitoring of the physics lab or biofeedback sensors .
Last edited by Hendrik; 07-13-2013 at 08:35 AM.
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You still did not answer my question though do you really think the ground pushes you back? Of course you do not you are an educated man. So why did you say that then? Why say something that is not true? Why do you not just say things as they really are? Do you see that is my point that this type of terminology misleads us and makes us think things are different than they really are. We start thinking vectors really exist or that we are using power from the ground and things like that.
Sorry. You were very rude and insulting. I said I was done with you. I'm not about to try and give you a biomechanics lesson now. You wouldn't listen anyway.
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I am getting old, come visit me sometimes if you like, I will give you the process of developing force path and force flow in snt , . And will coach you for you to be able to do the basic. Three days will be able to do it, and let you judge what it is yourself. . As I have shared with Mike , Narvin, Jim Rosalendo,..... And more who had visited me.
Thanks for the offer Hendrik! I may take you up on that at some point. You are in Southern California now?
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San Francisco area.
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