What is Wing Chun for??

[sihing]

Wing Chun Kung Fu is primarily a fighting art, but one can also learn and develop other things from it's study and practice: sound body alignment and posture, chi breathing development to increase one's inner vitality, focus and concentration, a sense of discipline, etc.

But it is primarily a fighting art.

And as a fighting art it is primarily a close quarter standup striking art that also utilizes kicking technique, some basic standing armlocks, and some basic sweeps/takedowns.

And it's best used in street combat since one is usually going to be in close standup range more often than not in everyday life experiences that might turn violent anyway...(No, just in a phonebooth, LOL)...and wherein going to a full clinch or the ground might not be the smartest thing to do if it can be avoided.

And dan chi sao (and any other aspect/drill/training regimen one might care to mention) is geared to do just what I've described: teach one how to fight at close range.

Agreed (seem to be saying that alot on this thread) for the most part on what you say above Vic. Dan chi, the example I used, does it teach one to fight or does it train something that can be used in a fight? I've never seen two people line up to fight one another in a dan chi position. Please feel free to give details on your dan chi drill, the how's and why's, as well as any other drills that can translate to fighting skills. For example, when you are in fok position and your partner throws out his palm strike from tan, how does your fok react, and why does it react that way, and what is the relevance to combat by doing it the way you do? Since this is a forum we might as well get into details on things, right?

The point of this thread is what is the value of Wing Chun training in relation to combat effectiveness. We all know it is used for the most part in close range, but why is that the case, and how do we learn to function in that range thru WC training?

James

[sihing]

....
On reference to drills involving the jab- be careful about any assumption of "blocking" a good jab.
Good structure and timing gives better wc alternatives .....


Cheers and happy new year.

joy chaudhuri

Hi Joy

On reference to the jab drill I mentioned. I use it as a progression from prolonged contact drills (chi sau/laap sau), to non contact situations. The jab would not be "blocked" persay but taken care of by our own hit over top (fok concept). I totally agree, it comes down to timing and good structure, with the timing being different when it comes from a non contacted positon as compared to a proloned contacted position in chi sau or pak sau drills, which allows someone not familiar with this method a chance to learn the structure better, rather than having him face 1000 jabs in a row. I'm sure as you begin to face more jabs from a varied selection of people the better your timing will get, which means better % of success in a fight using this idea. My thoughts on this are if the guy is close enough to strike me and make contact so am I so I don't necessarily wait for his strike to come in, even though there may be contact if we both strike towards one another simultaneously.

Just sharing thoughts on things here, I know in a fight there is little time for thought, or at the least there shouldn't be.

Happy New Year to you as well..

James

[Ali. R]

But what is, speaks for itself…

Paraphrasing Ip Man- for self development, for self defense, for defending the weak and helping society.

You know, after punching and kicking for so many years, I find the part self-development and helping the weak more constructive rather then trying to be the best fighter in the world.

The self-defense part is secondary, because how many times will one get in a street fight pass the age of 35 in their life time. I’ve haven’t been in one…

Same topics come in cycles on forums and the threads run off in different directions, pften avoiding analysis.

Really?

On Reference to dan chi sao- In Ip man wc-dan chi sao is very important and is an important prelude to other forms of chi sao including poon/luk/lop-dan loosens up one side at a time while developing all sides of each bridge hand- and teaches hand balance, control and attack properly when properly done.

On reference to drills involving the jab- be careful about any assumption of "blocking" a good jab.
Good structure and timing gives better wc alternatives..

joy chaudhuri

What it is speaks for itself, This way; you have more opportunities to develop one-self and helping others…



Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

Threads run off in different directions, pften avoiding analysis.

I’m looking but I can’t see where this has been analyzed; subject at hand, just below… Are you saying that drills and chi sao are self-defense, because that’s the only outline that your reference covers within the confines of the statement below?

Paraphrasing Ip Man- for self development, for self defense, for defending the weak and helping society.

This is all I see.

run off in different directions

What did you mean by this statement?

avoiding analysis.

Analyzing what, this?

Paraphrasing Ip Man- for self development, for self defense, for defending the weak and helping society.

Ali Rahim.

[t_niehoff]

Okay, following the lead in a few of Terence's threads, to which I interpret him saying that application can only be learned by doing it, by sparring/fighting. I totally agree with this, to become better at something you have to do that something, and if it happens to be fighting then you must fight consistently to obtain the skills to fight.

Yeah, it's just common sense.

If that is true then what value does Wing Chun have for one interested in fighting and or combat application. For me I've learned that WC is mostly about attribute/structure/body mechanics development, pure training and development of your tools, not about application.

I don't think you are alone in your POV. However, I think it is fundamentally flawed. Let me explain: without application as a guide or reference, we can do anything, practice any way we like, adopt any body structure, etc. -- who is to say what is right or what is wrong? Without application, you can do anything. It is application that keeps us on the right (for us) track.

I suggest that you may want to start looking at WCK from a skill-based perspective. In other words, what you are trying to develop are skills (the ability to perform various tasks with max certainty and min time/effort). You see, you can't separate attribute development/structure/body mechanics from application. Those are simply elements in the application, in the doing.

Consider surfing as an analogy -- how could someone work on the attribute/structure/body mechanics of surfing without regard to actually surfing? It would make no sense. And -- this is critical -- it is only by and through actually surfing that you develop those elements. You can't develop structure/attributes/body mechanics outside of application. WCK is in the application. It is not the forms or the drills --it only comes alive in application, the fighting itself.

[t_niehoff]

To me, WC develops a skill set that allows for fighting inside a phone booth, you don't get that with boxing ( not to the extent you get in WC).

That is my view as well. I think WCK is an approach to fighting and a (flawed) training method that provides a method (a strategic plan) and skills to get close and stay there, fighting in a phone both. In a nutshell, I think that approach is to control your opponent while striking him.

[Ali. R]

The problem is that people will fall for anything that anyone says without evidence, it has to work of it’s worthless…

This is how one can stick their chest out, just because they’re associated or know someone half famous and will say anything without merit (it’s sad) and people will fall for it over, and over again…

If you really train hard and have no issues with yourself, then one will find out real fast that; “it’s not how good one is, but how good one could be…

Olds guys please move out the way either fight or teach and don’t lie…

One can see it doesn’t work; and still follow…

One can feel it doesn’t work and still follow…

If one has reading comprehension skills they can clearly see falsehood in the writing, but still follow…

Welcome to Jamestown U.S.A.

It can be really disappointing when you really look up to someone and they slip up with inconsistence weirdness…



Ali Rahim.

[LoneTiger108]

The point of this thread is what is the value of Wing Chun training in relation to combat effectiveness. We all know it is used for the most part in close range, but why is that the case, and how do we learn to function in that range thru WC training?

James

Combat effectiveness is naturally developed through specific good old fashioned Martial Art training, and I wouldn't specifically say that you need Wing Chun to fight or to develop fighting skills. Just determination and courage imo.

For me Wing Chun is just one persons viewpoint on what they needed at the time and in most cases I see these days Wing Chun has been pretty much 'frozen in time'. By that I mean that we may tend to spend too much time 'repeating what Sifu done' or copying one persons take on one technique instead of using the knowledge of the style to develop your own true martial-self. I'm an advocate of coaching a strong foundation that allows individual exploration.

Why do we specialize in close range? Maybe it's based in the fact that Wing Chun hand work originates from the knives, and if we want a similar comparison for long range then the hand work originates from the pole. Without these weapon based interventions our hand work could become a little deluded and confused. Functionality comes from confidence with our whole bodies motion.

What is all that for?? I have to agree with Joy on this one and refer to the older masters viewpoint highlighting Martial Art for self development, self defense, for defending the weak and helping society.

[Ali. R]

Next thing you know, you’re selling your BODY,,,,, standing the ally, SWEATING,,,with no shirt on…

Not for no money, but just one bit off the MAN’S sandwich….

Charlie Murphy
Roll Bounces,

May your New Year be blessed,


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

Hey T,

I sure it’s not fundamentally flawed (wing chun), could it just be that you haven’t ran into a teacher that can help make your fundamentals come to life…

I would love to workout with you and maybe we can find some answers together, just a thought…

I don’t deviate…

A lot of these guys will say and do anything…


Ali Rahim.

[dirtyrat]

For me Wing Chun is just one persons viewpoint on what they needed at the time and in most cases I see these days Wing Chun has been pretty much 'frozen in time'. By that I mean that we may tend to spend too much time 'repeating what Sifu done' or copying one persons take on one technique instead of using the knowledge of the style to develop your own true martial-self. I'm an advocate of coaching a strong foundation that allows individual exploration.

Why do we specialize in close range? Maybe it's based in the fact that Wing Chun hand work originates from the knives, and if we want a similar comparison for long range then the hand work originates from the pole. Without these weapon based interventions our hand work could become a little deluded and confused. Functionality comes from confidence with our whole bodies motion.

Good post!

Training should revolve around developing the efficiency of our techniques. Techniques are just a means to an end. Tradition is a good thing so long as we keep in mind that tradition was created for people and that tradition should never be more important than the people it was created for.

[Saboi Osmosis]

What is Wing Chun for.....

for me its about learning how to fight, and knuckling down and learning something i feel is priceless.

one other reason i train that others have not mentioned is FUN

you gotta enjoy it, I guess to really get something out of it.

[dirtyrat]

There are historians who believe that Chinese boxing (structural body mechanics, sensitivity drills, iron body conditioning, etc) was used as a foundation to weapons training. That along with weight training, running, jumping, etc.

However, weapons usage (swords & spears) was top priorty back in the days. No one goes to war without weapons...

With the invention of firearms, the emphasis of training shifted from weapons to empty hands. This was probably done more for recreational purposes.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Agreed (seem to be saying that alot on this thread) for the most part on what you say above Vic. Dan chi, the example I used, does it teach one to fight or does it train something that can be used in a fight?" (James)

***IT TEACHES one how to deflect an incoming force downward when your hand/arm is on top of his - while maintaining a strong balance and body alignment/strucure....and it teaches you how to deflect a force that coming in at you when your arm is underneath - and both skills can be valuable in real fighting.
..........................................


"Please feel free to give details on your dan chi drill, the how's and why's, as well as any other drills that can translate to fighting skills. For example, when you are in fok position and your partner throws For example, when you are in fok position and your partner throws out his palm strike from tan, how does your fok react, and why does it react that way, and what is the relevance to combat by doing it the way you do? Since this is a forum we might as well get into details on things, right?" (James)

***THE EXAMPLES from other drills are too numerous to mention here in detail, but I will name some of them in passing: luk sao (rolling hands)...taking his arms off-line during the roll and he must return to the centerline...countless other things that can come out of double arm chi sao (see my "channel" on youtube for the 13 vids I did about double arm chi sao)...

and there are some basic pak sao/pak da drills....some bong sao/lop sao drills that involve (in TWC anyway) more than just a stationary bong/lop/straight punch scenario....there are other parallel arm drills and cross arm drills that start from contact, and others that start from non contact...There are Wooden Dummy moves that can be trained as drills with a partner...

ETC.

As regards your specific remarks about fok sao defending against the palm strike: The fuk sao must GO FORWARD as your wrist juts downward in order to eat his space....the fighting situation that I use most frequently with this scenario is against a straight hard punch being thrown by his rear hand (like a rear cross) when his punch his aimed at my body - and we are in a parallel position to each other; ie.- he's in a left hand/left leg lead stance and throws his low rear cross at my body...and I am in a right hand/right leg lead postion:

my left hand/arm can do a pak/jut to deflect his punch downward - but I must be coming with some forward force and then immediately throw a punch with my right arm/hand to put him on defense (and there's some slight footwork/shifting involved with this also).

...............................................

"We all know it is used for the most part in close range, but why is that the case, and how do we learn to function in that range thru WC training?" (James)

***IT'S THE CASE, as I explained many times before, because wing chun (mostly vertical) punching his much less shoulder movement than other striking systems (ie.- boxing)...and therefore is structurally a shorter reaching punch/strike.

We learn to function in that range, in my opinion, by learning how to use other, longer range moves to get to that range....and to return to that range when we are no longer there.

[Wayfaring]

I personally find that my manipulation of range, striking in short range including power, and control of my opponent on the inside has vastly increased due to my WC training. Just sensitivity training in a bridge scenario is worthwhile. My understanding of true structure including body part alignment is a lot better, facing, and understanding of space and the occupation of it. Also, it has increased my ability in the counterpunching strategy.

It has not taught me long range striking or footwork, clinch fighting including against an obstacle like a cage or wall, or any workable ground skills at all. Those have had to be cross-trained.