What is Wing Chun for??

[sihing]

Okay, following the lead in a few of Terence's threads, to which I interpret him saying that application can only be learned by doing it, by sparring/fighting. I totally agree with this, to become better at something you have to do that something, and if it happens to be fighting then you must fight consistently to obtain the skills to fight.

If that is true then what value does Wing Chun have for one interested in fighting and or combat application. For me I've learned that WC is mostly about attribute/structure/body mechanics development, pure training and development of your tools, not about application. It teaches the body how to generate certain reflexes towards incoming pressure, how to handle that pressure while strengthen the person's body mechanics and structure while doing it. It's all about what to do when contact is made while inclose and striking (there are other subskills as well). When in this situation what do you do? Do you disengage, do you maintain contact but deflect that energy, do you smash thru it, do you go around it, all or none of the above? If you do one or more of the above, how do you do that?

I think a discussion on this would be interesting. For me, my thinking about WC has changed dramatically over the last few years and still is today in a subtle way.
What I see online (youtube), and what I hear coming out of allot of the instructors mouths is totally contray to what I believe WC is. I see allot of people protecting their organizations/ego's/income streams. They protect there own thoughts and belief's partially because they place their identity inline with their belief's. If you disagree with them (as can be seen in some recent threads), they attack you personally, because they perceive your disagreement as a personal attack, when in truth it isn't, just a disagreement towards an idea or way of doing things.

To get things started, what is dan chi for? For me it is a way to teach the body (waist, hips, elbow) basic attacking lines and structure/unity from an inside line (tan position), and how to defend/attack from an outside line with structure/unity (fok position), in a prolonged contact situation (training). So whenever you are in a situation where you have outside contact on someone's arm (which would happen allot when you fight on the inside), your body already knows what to do, what to protect and how to attack at the sametime, it has a reflex built in, since in real application you will never have the prolonged contact situation that you have in a drill, you have to make it an instinctual second nature response. Visa versa on the inside. SEE Kevin G posts for more detail. Now to bring it to a more realistic level, you can start from a non contact situation, have someone throw jabs at you or you intiate a jab and go from there, isolated sparring drill persay, and then kick it up a notch and add it in to sparring whenever you feel like later on. That's my basic take on it. What do you think of the dan chi drill, what does it teach you and your students, just to get things started?

Feel free to discuss other drills and such to bring about a better understanding of the how's and why's.

I guess in the end it comes down to do you think WC adds effectiveness to your combat skills? I say Yes it does, based on my experience with it. It will not guarantee success everytime, no art or training method can say that, nor will it make me able to handle a pro or semi pro for that matter, as they are in a different league, different mindset and operate with different intentions. How can one that trains only a few hours each week, deal successfull and consistently with someone that is training a few hours each day. You may get lucky a few times, but the percentages are not in your favor.


James

[sanjuro_ronin]

To me, WC develops a skill set that allows for fighting inside a phone booth, you don't get that with boxing ( not to the extent you get in WC).
That said I tend to think that most people should go from "long hand to short hand" and that most that I have seen that have gone directly to short hand tend to be "missing something" that takes longer to develop.
My 2 cents.

[Ali. R]

Wing Chun is nothing more then a journey of enlightenment finding myself on a higher level of understanding, not just martial but in life overall, really the martial and fighting concepts are far much to boring for me, been there done that.


Ali Rahim.

[sihing]

Agreed. I use that phone booth analogy all the time. And I agree that learning how to enter is another piece missing from the pie, as you do get situations where you may have to line up with a guy to be able to use your tools in the right range. That is why I like to teach the drills in a traditional way, then show a more realistic application of it. I personally believe WC is a counter striking art, problem is if the guy is good you may be a step behind and not able to gain the upper hand, it comes down to timing and distance control in those situations.

James

[sihing]

Wing Chun is nothing more then a journey of enlightenment finding myself on a higher level of understanding, not just martial but in life overall, really the martial and fighting concepts are far much to boring for me, been there done that.


Ali Rahim.

That's all good as well. Whenever you apply yourself to any endeavour with dedication and consistency, it will uplift your life, if you are aware enough, aware of your own thoughts, your skills, and what you want out of it. Me, I'm no fighter, I practice and teach WC for my own enjoyment, people learn from me because they like the material and believe it has some value to them in relation to combat. I've gotten much more out of Wing Chun than fighting skills, and I don't look at it exclusively that way, as strictly a fighting method, since it isn't, it's more about training and refinement of tools. To each their own.

My thread here is a specific one, relating to what value Wing Chun has to those that are interested in combat effectiveness.

James

[grasshopper 2.0]

I think WC is simply to make us better boxers, where "boxer" is defined as a fighter who uses fists to knock the opponent out (not necessarily the western boxer style of fighting). I think that's the ultimate goal of WC. I do not see WC as discriminating between phone booth fighting or long range fighting..or at least casted as that role.

Dan chi is just a tool to take us to chi-sao and chi-sao is a tool to get us to the above goal.

[sihing]

I think WC is simply to make us better boxers, where "boxer" is defined as a fighter who uses fists to knock the opponent out (not necessarily the western boxer style of fighting). I think that's the ultimate goal of WC. I do not see WC as discriminating between phone booth fighting or long range fighting..or at least casted as that role.

Dan chi is just a tool to take us to chi-sao and chi-sao is a tool to get us to the above goal.

I see your point, and I agree that yes in the end we are training to become fist fighters (with a few low kicks addin for realism). But it can be said that the WC method of fist fighting is applied differently than a boxer's method or a MT method. There are different setups, structurally, mechanically, strategy wise as well.

Maybe you could expand on your thoughts on chi sau. If dan chi is only meant to get us to chi sau, why not just do dbl arm chi sau? For me there is a difference. Dbl arm, especially when movement is added, teaches allot of about facing, and keeping dual pressure from both limbs. Facing is important as it keeps our tools/weapons facing the action, plus it allows us to use the power from the legs in our actions. Dual energy in our limbs keeps the attacks coming constantly towards our opponent, with each limb being training to change from attack to defense and back to attacking again in a ever changing enviornment. Dan chi is basic and isolated, one hand at a time. When things go wrong in the other drills we go back to dan chi to isolate and correct, since it is pretty simple. (just trying to bring about the details here, the how's and why's, instead of generalizing.)


James

[grasshopper 2.0]

I see your point, and I agree that yes in the end we are training to become fist fighters (with a few low kicks addin for realism). But it can be said that the WC method of fist fighting is applied differently than a boxer's method or a MT method. There are different setups, structurally, mechanically, strategy wise as well.

Maybe you could expand on your thoughts on chi sau. If dan chi is only meant to get us to chi sau, why not just do dbl arm chi sau? For me there is a difference. Dbl arm, especially when movement is added, teaches allot of about facing, and keeping dual pressure from both limbs.

James

I think on the surface, as well as initially, WC appears different from that of MT or the western boxer. But the end product, WC can look very similar to MT/boxing. It's my opinion, but i think that after we do all that training (stance, tan sao, wu sao, etc), we are to throw all of those positions away, and keep the function. So in essence, the tan sao function is there, but maybe not performed in a tan-sao appearance.

In terms of chi-sao, yea good point. i suppose you can just throw them into Chi-sao and skip the dan chi. The same can be said about chi-sao itself. just skip that and go into fighting..which is what the boxer would do.

In the WC context of fighting, arm sensitivity is a huge component, so chi-sao for us is very important. dan chi is not required, but it's simply "training wheels" to get to chi-sao.

your thoughts/

[Ali. R]

That's all good as well. Whenever you apply yourself to any endeavour with dedication and consistency, it will uplift your life, if you are aware enough, aware of your own thoughts, your skills, and what you want out of it. Me, I'm no fighter, I practice and teach WC for my own enjoyment, people learn from me because they like the material and believe it has some value to them in relation to combat. I've gotten much more out of Wing Chun than fighting skills, and I don't look at it exclusively that way, as strictly a fighting method, since it isn't, it's more about training and refinement of tools. To each their own.

My thread here is a specific one, relating to what value Wing Chun has to those that are interested in combat effectiveness.

James

And that’s what one should be looking for, an ending to a beginning. (enlightenment)... We all think differently, and that is what wing chun is to me as your title expressed, and I will express that here on this forum any time the question every comes up again.

Thank you,

The problem with your phone booth is: you can’t find a phone booth in 85% of the country; try a toilet stall in the subway, which might work out just fine…


Take care,



Ali Rahim.

[sihing]

I think on the surface, as well as initially, WC appears different from that of MT or the western boxer. But the end product, WC can look very similar to MT/boxing. It's my opinion, but i think that after we do all that training (stance, tan sao, wu sao, etc), we are to throw all of those positions away, and keep the function. So in essence, the tan sao function is there, but maybe not performed in a tan-sao appearance.

In terms of chi-sao, yea good point. i suppose you can just throw them into Chi-sao and skip the dan chi. The same can be said about chi-sao itself. just skip that and go into fighting..which is what the boxer would do.

In the WC context of fighting, arm sensitivity is a huge component, so chi-sao for us is very important. dan chi is not required, but it's simply "training wheels" to get to chi-sao.

your thoughts/

For me, when fighting or sparring there is no regard for appearence, of whether or not I am exibiting what I do in training, since training is not application.

I've learned that economy of motion doesn't necessarily mean less movement, it also can mean using what you know when you need it. For example, fok sau, can teach us how to protect our centerline when contact is made on the outside while maintaining a forward springlike pressure. That precise elbow position and feeling does not always have to be there when you strike, but once that position is made and that pressure is felt, your fok response can come out then.

We don't fight or live our lives with our elbows attached to our centerlines, they are only needed to create a line of force, but the training also refines how we would naturally strike, as most people strike with an elbow out structure, which is weak if you don't know what you are doing like a boxer. Elbow in is strong, as can be proven when you have someone push on your fist, from either a elbow out or elbow in position you should feel a difference in the force you feel, and what mucscles engage or don't.

Arm sensitivity is important in WC because we are more contact fighters than boxers, we fight closer in to jam up their abilty to fire, so we can't rely upon our eye reflexes as much. Fighting actions change as range changes, wrestlers don't fight like TKD guys.

James

[sihing]

And that’s what one should be looking for, an ending to a beginning. (enlightenment)... We all think differently, and that is what wing chun is to me as your title expressed, and I will express that here on this forum any time the question every comes up again.

Thank you,

The problem with your phone booth is: you can’t find a phone booth in 85% of the country; try a toilet stall in the subway, which might work out just fine…


Take care,



Ali Rahim.

Enlightenment is a individual thing. We are all searching for something, even though the important things are already within us. So I see what your saying, and we are all on different levels of understanding and with different intention towards what WC may mean to us. I use it as well in everyday life, I don't chase hands in WC nor in life as best I can, and try to walk a straight path towards peace and inner contentment

James

[Ali. R]

You’re right,

Never chase hands and always go to the grill for real, because if one is soft never lay under anything hard…


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

Enlightenment is a individual thing.

James

And so is one choice in technique and applications…


Ali Rahim.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Wing Chun Kung Fu is primarily a fighting art, but one can also learn and develop other things from it's study and practice: sound body alignment and posture, chi breathing development to increase one's inner vitality, focus and concentration, a sense of discipline, etc.

But it is primarily a fighting art.

And as a fighting art it is primarily a close quarter standup striking art that also utilizes kicking technique, some basic standing armlocks, and some basic sweeps/takedowns.

And it's best used in street combat since one is usually going to be in close standup range more often than not in everyday life experiences that might turn violent anyway...(No, just in a phonebooth, LOL)...and wherein going to a full clinch or the ground might not be the smartest thing to do if it can be avoided.

And dan chi sao (and any other aspect/drill/training regimen one might care to mention) is geared to do just what I've described: teach one how to fight at close range.

[Vajramusti]

Paraphrasing Ip Man- for self development, for self defense, for defending the weak and helping society.

On Reference to dan chi sao- In Ip man wc-dan chi sao is very important and is an important prelude to other forms of chi sao including poon/luk/lop-dan loosens up one side at a time while developing all sides of each bridge hand- and teaches hand balance, control and attack properly when properly done.

On reference to drills involving the jab- be careful about any assumption of "blocking" a good jab.
Good structure and timing gives better wc alternatives .

Same topics come in cycles on forums and the threads run off in different directions, pften avoiding analysis.

Cheers and happy new year.

joy chaudhuri