Where would you stick the Pole?

[Vajramusti]

Hey know! I thought you said you weren't wearing WC colored glasses! You lied to me.....I feel so hurt and dissapointed.
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Omar- you might want to read more carefully. I said that this is a wing chun forum and my spectacles are pretty clear.You draw a wrong inference- that I am not using a wing chun POV .Precisely the opposite is the case. I am confident that you will recover from your hurt and disappointment. Cheer up-Tomorrow is another day.

[omarthefish]

That is very sybolic of why most WC is such garbage today.

insuarity

The lack of a broader perspective. It's like inbreeding. How are you supposed to develope any real understanding of what you do without the greater context? How can you say anything meaningful about WC at all without drawing comparisons to other arts? Without real and serious research into what people outside of your little WC circle are doing it is not possible to understand what YOU are doing.

As there is no WC spear form, that I am aware of anyways, how is it possible to make any kind of comparitive analysis without reference to other styles?

You statement:

((Not really interested in XingYi or Baji. Wing chun is a demanding mistress))

Was in reponse to my statement:

This is the primary reason for spear training being continued in most northern arts like Xing Yi or Baji today.

You dismissed the information on how spear is used because it came from a non-WC source. What other inference is there to make here?

[Edmund]

Yes. It still is. I am kind of baffled that you don't see it. You're "counterpoint" is a non-sequetir. It doesn't respond to my point at all. To whit, how does borrowing military training techniques somehow imply a connection between the group tactics of pike use to dismount riders and the individual practices developed within the WC tradition for the use of the long pole? As to the assertion that "martial artists incorporate an outside idea into the existing martial art", state specifically what aspect of English pike use to dismount cavalry or even similar tactics within Chinese history that have been incoporated to WC pole work?

If you can draw a connection betwen the two then I can give you credit for having added something intelligible to the discussion. So far, you have failed to draw any connection whatsoever.

Omar,

You made the argument that the pike theory was flawed stating 2 things:
1. It was not a personal fighting weapon.
2. It doesn't require martial arts skills.

These DO NOT address the pike theory at all because I suggested that the pike training only influenced the existing martial arts. In other words, you didn't understand the theory that was put forward which is why I said learn to read.

You still don't.

The theory is this: Martial artists sees military training of troops that are using the pike. They like the ideas and exercises and incorporate them into their individual practice with the pole.

Concerning the English pike and WC pole connection: tjwingchun said, his student saw similarity in the weapons and how they did their techniques at an exhibition.
His student drew the connection originally. I merely agreed and gave my theory as to why.

[Edmund]

The difference I can see is actually the mirror opposite of what you described. There are more "sharp cuts" with a staff/pole. Technically, no blade = no cut but the motion, the action of the weapon is still cutting. You can use the pole to smack someone like you would with a staff. You can do that with a spear too but the addition of the metal tip makes stabbing a potential kill vs. "cutting" or "smacking" just an injury. It prejudices the user more towards stabbing.

Really, spear tips are not effective at slashing or cutting. They basically just stab.

You finally have an inkling of what the difference is between WC pole and a spear.

There's no spear tip so no prejudice towards stabbing. There's no blade so you basically are using the last foot or so to bludgeon someone with no care about where the blade is facing.

The concept is that if you can powerfully strike (and coordinate) with the tip of a very long heavy pole in training, you should be able to do it with a shorter one that you could actually wield as a personal weapon.

[CFT]

Omar,

Ray Van Raamsdonk used to visit these forums but he doesn't seem to post these days. You may want to contact him for his thoughts on the Wing Chun pole and the spear.

This is their adaptation of Wing Chun pole to spear: http://www.springtimesong.com/wcforms5Spear.htm

[omarthefish]

Thanks for the link CFT.

Edmund,

lol@your staggering ignorance about how a spear is used. Have you ever even seen a spear? The blade doesn't "face" any direction at all. It points.

Also pointing out that despite your impliued value in literacy and all that you failed to read what I wrote above. I actually suggested that the action of "cutting" is more relevant to the pole that to the spear. That's the opposite of what you claimed I "finnaly understood" (even though this was information I put out. You and Vajra apparently have no information of your own to present. The only specific attribute(s) of the weapons you have mentioned so far is what you misinterpreted from one of my own posts.

And my point about the pike remains because:

1. You have STILL not suggested a SINGLE technique or training method shared by those who use each of the two weapons.

2. You have STILL not suggested where or how southern Chinese civilians had the opportunity to watch and be influenced by the tactics and training methods of BRITISH soldiers from several centuries earlier.

Furthermore these two "points":

1. It was not a personal fighting weapon.
2. It doesn't require martial arts skills.

Taken in context are extremely relevant. They were part of a description of how the pike is used in contrast to the way the long pole is used. Here's what was mentioned about the pike usage in the original post:

Simply to knock men off horseback, once they have been knocked off then they are vulnerable to the short double swords. It was some years after I began teaching this theory for justification, that one of my students told me of an exhibition at the Royal Armoury in Leeds, UK, showing how the English pikestaff was utilised, a similar ten foot weapon, except it has a hook on the end, used to remove knights from their horses.

Seeing as there is no hook on the end of the WC pole, how is it supposed to be used for that purpose? I keep coming back to the same points over and over again. There's just no technical overlap. Name the technique? Where is it in the form? ANYTHING at all. The reason a pike has a hook on it is to *drum roll* hook onto and then drag down the rider. It also has a pointy spear tip so that you can plant the but end in the ground and allow a charging horse to impale its self. Now go back home and pull out your trusty WC pole, review the techniques you have learned and find the one where you hook and pull with the tip that has no hooking thing attatched to it. Then you can go find the part where you plant the but end on the ground to brace against a charging animal.

If you can do either of those, THEN you have a point.

No wonder Knifefighter likes to troll this forum. Most of you guys are just too easy.

[omarthefish]

Just finished the link.

Excellent. That's pretty much what I was thinking and why I suggested the comparison. I wouldn't have thought it would be so much like pulling teeth to get some guys on a WC forum to see it too. It took me a couple minutes to get the link open as I had to open a proxy server. The site isn't accesable from here for some reason. In a nutshel:

The 6 1/2 point spear is derived from the Wing Chun Long Pole Movements. The key attacking movement of the spear is the thrust or poke. The Key defensive movements are Tan (inside high deflection), Fook (outside high deflection) and Bong (tip pointing down rotational deflection). Other movements of the spear include Gan (pressing), Lan (to bar), Jum (to sink), Dim (point hit or touching hit), Huen (to circle) and Jut (to Jerk). Spear fighting is somewhat similar to fencing. It is possible that the entire Wing Chun art is based on the art of the spear. In China the spear was the supreme weapon of choice when room allowed it. Spear work in China was very sophisticated. wing Chun's techniques are the essence of this weapon. The Long pole is most commonly associated with Wing Chun as a result of the Red Junk influence. The men prefer to use a long pole in order to strengthen the muscles so that punches are more forceful. Ladies prefer to fight with a spear because the long pole is not a practical fighting weapon if you are of smaller stature or older. The spear includes the 6 1/2 point form, the sticking spear and then freestyle spear fighting. It is very quick to learn but difficult to master.

I bolded the bits that most succinctly summarized what I have been arguing here but really the whole thing is relevant.

[Vajramusti]

That is very sybolic of why most WC is such garbage today.

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((sybolic? sic? PS- Sounds as though you did some faulty survey research.I dont know of your level of competence in garbology.
The pole is just an instrument- but its appropriate for some kinds of wing chun training. The person developing wing chun skills-his kearning, practice and experimenting with applications is the key. You get out what you put into it.With pole related wing chun skill development- one can poke, stab, deflect, break, destroy structures,
lift other weapons up down and other angles, pull. push, go around, make it a long weapon or a short weapon. With the pole skills you can cut if you have a cutting instrument. You can experiment against other weapons users. Against a gun a pole or a spear has quite limited uses. Judgements, skills and awareness,
and timing- the individual is the key. Wing chun is not for mass production or army training IMO))

joy chaudhuri

[AndrewS]

Omar writes:

Now THAT's the kind of answer I was hoping to draw out of Vajramusti, especially the last part. It's something I hadn't really thought about but I think is pretty valid now that you mention it.

Not completely sure about the armour thing. It certainly shaped the evolution of the usage but by the late Qing and the early republican era, it had already achieved a cultural status that made it a primary dueling weapon. The two main dueling weapons of China were the spear and the sword. Li Shuwen killed lots of Samurai with his spear though and I confess ignorance on what would be typical dueling attire for the "Samurai" of the early 20th century. Not even sure if they still called

As far as the spear in dueling- what weapon are we talking about - the 6-7' spear seen today, or things like WC's long pole and baji's pole- which I've seen more appropriately termed as a lance? The little wushu waxwood twigs are basically as different a weapon from 9' hardwood monsters, as a foil is from a hand and a half sword.

The whole 'learn one long weapon and all other things manifest as it' is garbage. Some mechanics and strategies transfer from very long to long to medium to short to empty hand to grappling, but making statements about the pole granting expertise in other weapons is truly disingenuous and reveals only an ignorance of weapons training. A 2-3lb difference in weapon weight can completely change the dynamics of its use- foil vs. long sword, stick vs. club or axe, without even starting to talk about changing the length of the lever arm on you.

The western martial arts stuff is pretty cool. There's a big overlap between the armored grappling and knife work and some classical JJ stuff that makes *no* sense on an unarmored guy. I'm not sure about the role of armor and armored combat in CMA. I'm not sure what was standard.

Andrew

P.S. Don't expect any more from Joy than vague platitudes, arguments from authority, and ungrounded assertions, 'cos you're not going to get it.

[Vajramusti]

P.S. Don't expect any more from Joy than vague platitudes, arguments from authority, and ungrounded assertions, 'cos you're not going to get it.
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Well! :-

joy c

[Liddel]

I like that you have a specific point for me to look at but really it suggests that you have worked with the pole but not the spear. Spears don't cut. They stab. Really, spear tips are not effective at slashing or cutting. They basically just stab.

Well thats fair -
I see cutting and stabbing as one in the same generally - but litterally i stand corrected.
I havent worked with the spear so you can add in the necessary comments about that.

From what ive seen the poke/stab is different between the two weapons, the Lok Dim Boon has the hand positions remain the same generating power from the elbow and body as its put out.
From my limited experience with the spear it seems the poke/stabbing actions have changing hand positions ???

Also the elbow force i send down the pole ( if ive trained enough ) generates an energy that shakes the tip actually applying many mini hits to the opponent.

Where as the spear would be intended to penetrate with one stabbing action.

Im curious - with the pole i was taught it was an extension of your arm, and the point at which your hands grab the pole become the new elbow point.
This makes it easier IMO for one to apply what they know about the hand forms to the Pole, crossing over thier mentallity a little.
Is this similar to the spear ?

Also the position of my hands on the pole seem unique to VT from what ive seen of other styles pole / spear work.
How is the spear generally held ?

In my mind these attributes seperate the forces used in both the spear and the pole.
Though as ive said they are very similar IMO.

Im not here to change minds or prove where the poles come from, im just curious to discuss.

[Edmund]

Seeing as there is no hook on the end of the WC pole, how is it supposed to be used for that purpose? I keep coming back to the same points over and over again. There's just no technical overlap. Name the technique? Where is it in the form? ANYTHING at all.

You truly don't even care about the topic which is why you continue to rebutt arguments that no one has made because you are that keen on arguing.

There is no hook on the end of the WC pole so why would anyone suggest that it would be used to hook anything. No one has. There is similarly no spear tip.

There is no technique where you stick the butt into the ground. No one claimed that either.

The theory is this: Martial artists sees military training of troops that are using the pike. They like the ideas and exercises and incorporate them into their individual practice with the pole.

[omarthefish]

Edmund,

That's what a pike does! I don't know why anyone would suggest that but there it is on the very first post of this thread. That's just how pikes are used. Either planted against the ground to withstand a charge or the hook is used to pull people down. If you argue that "Martial artists sees military training of troops that are using the pike. They like the ideas and exercises and incorporate them into their individual practice with the pole.", THAT's what you are arguing.

Liddel,

The hand placement and particular way of sending power down the shaft definately does seem fairly unique. I'm not following how your poke is different from your stab unless you are just comparing the WC poke to the "other style" stab with a spear. It's true that the typical thing is to hold the shaft all the way at the but end with the rear hand and thrust while the other hand is allowed to slide back and forth essentially aiming while the rear hand expresses the power generatied by the rest of the body.

Also the elbow force i send down the pole ( if ive trained enough ) generates an energy that shakes the tip actually applying many mini hits to the opponent.

That's the same as what most people do with the spear. That's the part that is found most usefull for crossover to emptyhand. With a spear you would not be hitting the opponent though. That kind of "dou jin" as it's called, is more likely applied to the other persons weapon and then followed with a stab. The smaller and shorter the better. It's like a pak-sau to punch combination. The "shake" is the pak sau. The stab is the punch. You could also think of it as coming in with a tan from the outside. The same mechanics though, in empty hand are one of the ways to generate a really short strike with power. That's what most Baji people do. They just get an enourmously long heavy pole (called a "big spear" but they don't bother putting the tip on it) and only practice producing that "shake" from various different movements.

Im curious - with the pole i was taught it was an extension of your arm, and the point at which your hands grab the pole become the new elbow point.
This makes it easier IMO for one to apply what they know about the hand forms to the Pole, crossing over thier mentallity a little.
Is this similar to the spear ?

I honestly can't follow the metaphore. I don't truly get the way you guys talk about "elbow power". The only "elbow power" in my experience is the degree to which you can unify your elbow with your knee. "Waist power" gets a lot more talk in my circles.

How is the spear generally held ?

Most commonly the same as on the picture that is in the article linked above but you wouldn't generally see the lead arm locked like that and standing that upright would be very rare. More common to see a 60-40 stance or even an "empty stance " I guess it the spear is being "shaken" upwards at the angle displayed in the pic. "The Spear God" Li Shuwen was famous for taking duels while holding the spear on one arm only. He would tuck the but end under his armpit and cradle it, palm up, with the same arm and not even bother using the other arm. Basically at the first move he pretty much always had the spear tip at the other guys throat hence his nickname "The Spear God" (shenqiang Li Shuwen).

[k gledhill]

POLE TERMS according to the late GM W S Leung

english pronunciation:
1. Fung Lung Cheung
2. Ping Cheung
3. Leung Jee
4. Lau Soi
5. Kam Quan
6. Dang Quan
1/2. Che Cheung

1. 'fong lung cheung' - "releasing the dragon spearing-action" - this refers to the thrusting/striking action in the form.

2. 'ping cheung' - "level spearing-action" - this refers to the pushing action of the form, similar to the 'Lan Sau' in the empty-hand forms.

3. 'leung yi' - "two moves" - this is the action that resembles the 'Jaat Sau' technique in the empty-hand forms. It is referred to as 'Leung Yi' because it enables us to defend and be placed in a position of attack within one action.

4. 'lau soi' - "moving/stirring the water" - the action that is the pole form's equivalent of the 'Bong Sau' action.

5. 'kam gwan' - "covering pole" - the action that follows 'Lau Soi' where the pole covers the opponent's weapon, knocking it downwards.

6. 'dang gwan' - "ascending pole" - this is the arcing/lifting action done at the start of the pole form, and again towards the end, a 'Laan Sau'-type motion that can be applied offensively or defensively.

0.5 'che cheung' - "descending spearing-action" - the backward/downward action at the very end of the pole form, used to intercept the opponent's weapon (or the opponent's legs) when the attack comes in on a low line from the rear of the stance.

[Edmund]

Edmund,

That's what a pike does! I don't know why anyone would suggest that but there it is on the very first post of this thread. That's just how pikes are used. Either planted against the ground to withstand a charge or the hook is used to pull people down. If you argue that "Martial artists sees military training of troops that are using the pike. They like the ideas and exercises and incorporate them into their individual practice with the pole.", THAT's what you are arguing.

Well my definition of a pike in general, and I believe it's a common one, would be a very long spear held by infantry, no hook.

Having a hook, or sticking it in the ground may be great ideas, but NOT what I or others were referring to when talking about the pike.

We are talking about a pole that is a lot longer and heavier than the spear in that article you quoted.