Where would you stick the Pole?

[Lee Chiang Po]

Jujitsu comes from a Chinese form of grappling.

Not really. It would be just as correct to say it came from India or Ancient Greece.

Make sure you have read the history chapters in "Mastering JuJitsu" by Renzo Gracie and John Danaher, before arguing.

I am just guessing, but I would think the story I got was just about as good as the one you get from Gracie and Danaher. After all, the man that explained it all to me got his information from the Japanese military, which I am sure had some history on the art. Have you ever studied Japanese Jujitsu? I have and I have to say that there are a great many differences in it and the Brazillian Jujitsu. Back some 50 years ago when I first started training both WC and JJJ, I had never heard of all the different stuff that you can read about today. I have read at least a dozen histories on each one and they all seemed to be different accounts. I trust the ones I have learned in the very beginning. It all seems to make more sense to me anyway. All this stuff about time and space and all the other concepts. Great Buda, we are speaking of Kung Fu, not nuclear phisics. Believe what you want to believe. It don't really matter. No one really knows for certain anyway.

[Mr Punch]

There is no evidence to say that jujutsu came from any Chinese form.

End of song, end of story.

Thank you and good night.

[Lee Chiang Po]

There is no evidence to say that jujutsu came from any Chinese form.

End of song, end of story.

Thank you and good night.

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If it were that easy. No, you are incorrect. Jujitsu has been traced back to China some 2500 years ago. Called by another name I am sure, but most of the arts today originate from this single parent art. In fact, most of the forms we see today are 50 years old or less. Like Judo and Aikido, and even Tai Kwan Do.

[anerlich]

I am just guessing

That pretty much sums it up, especially since you haven't read the aforementioned reference.

[Mr Punch]

If it were that easy. No, you are incorrect. Jujitsu has been traced back to China some 2500 years ago. Called by another name I am sure, but most of the arts today originate from this single parent art. In fact, most of the forms we see today are 50 years old or less. Like Judo and Aikido, and even Tai Kwan Do.

It is that easy. You are wrong. There is no evidence to suggest that this is any more than another MA myth.

You can't even get the dates of modern arts right, why should we trust you talking about 2500?

Aikido goes back to the 1920s, as does judo (in fact longer)... which is longer than 50 years!

In the oldest written history on the planet which is Japan's Nihonshiki there is mention of a grappling/throwing art. Since this book also mentions lots of things with Chinese influence and at that time there was no animosity between the two cultures there would be no reason to obscure it if it came from China. This art developed into sumai which became sumo and which arguably is the origin of jujutsu. I say arguably because there is no direct historical evidence, just as there is no evidence to suggest this mythical art of yours from 2500 years ago existed.

If you can't provide a link to your 'fact' perhaps you can tell me which book you read it in, or who traced it back so far.

Again, I and the Martial Arts world are eagerly waiting for you answer... but since you've just talked **** since the last time you asked, I'm not holding my breath.

[Mr Punch]

Dude, the pole and the jo are three feet different in length and several pounds more in weight. If you don't think that changes the charachteristics of the instrument and it's implementation then you must be developmentally challenged. Not only are they physically different but the way a WC person uses the pole and the way an Akidoka uses a jo (form wise) is completely different.

Yeah, that's a fair point. But, it's still a stick. If you think a stick of kind used in wing chun could be a useful weapon except against maybe people on horseback, in the army or on boats I think maybe it's you who's developmentally challenged!

I know long heavy poles were used, but I don't think they were ever regular staples of single hand-to-hand combat.

Hence, style vs. style.

stick vs. stick sparring? That's a training method, not a direct aspect of any specific art (to mean, it's not 'owned' by any art).

But don't think stick vs stick is a common training practice in WC. So a style which regularly practices it will have the advantage, no?

Oh, and I am teaching it. I mean 'would' as in I would teach it to new students (as in students that are new to me and WC, but I can't currently teach because they aren't students yet ).

Cool.

[omarthefish]

lol.

Amazing....

First of all, the analogy to pole-arms is silly and the WC pole is essentially a spear. THAT's where you should be looking for comparisons. As such, it is tragicomical that there are so many who have a hard time seeing it's usefullness as a weapon even in old times. The double knives are the one's at the HUGE disadvantage when faced with the pole aka "a staff". The spear is considered the "king" of the long weapons and generally the most dangerous chinese weapon of all with the sword being the top dog of the short weapons.

The spear and the sword are the two most respected weapons because, among other things, they are the two that can allow their users to display the highest level of skill and the WC pole, being basically a one ended staff that only makes small short movements to "strike" with the shaft and then pokes with the tip a lot, doesn't spin or do many large sweeping movements....all of those are the basic characteristics of spear work.

The other analogy is that spear work is most highly valued today for the way it unifies the body and developes good short power and other basic skills.

The pike analogy is flawed because those are not used as personal figthing weapons at all and don't even require "martial arts" skill from the guy holding the weapon. They require it from the guy who is directing the troops. Dismounting mounted fighters with those things was a bit of creative genius from someone who was well aware that armies win battles, not individual fighters.

Other pole-arms also don't equate nearly as well to the WC pole because the characteristics of something like a guan dao are totally different. A guan dao, a true pole-arm is used to hack and slash more than to stab. Movements are twirling and circling. The weapon needs to keep in motion, keep the momentum going. Both ends are used a lot the blade AND the but. Not spear-like at all.

I always wondered why they even call it a "pole" instead of doing what everyone else does and call it a staff, a "single end staff" if you want to get picky.

[AmanuJRY]

Yeah, that's a fair point. But, it's still a stick. If you think a stick of kind used in wing chun could be a useful weapon except against maybe people on horseback, in the army or on boats I think maybe it's you who's developmentally challenged!

Well, thank god I don't believe that!

The M-16 is a more effective personal firearm than the M-60 or a shoulder slung vulcanized gatling gun, but the latter sure looks good in the movies.

My point is that it's not beyond reason that a person could be skilled enough with a long pole to 'beat' someone with a jo, given the body size, ability, and experience (IOW, it's not just the choice of weapon, but the person as well, hence person vs. person not style vs. style.

In the case of weapons, strategy and tactics play a larger role than in empty hands, therefore it leads to being more about the person than the art.

I know long heavy poles were used, but I don't think they were ever regular staples of single hand-to-hand combat.

But don't think stick vs stick is a common training practice in WC. So a style which regularly practices it will have the advantage, no?

Cool.

Of course, that's why I train in Escrima.

There are some pole exercises in some WC branches, mostly constructed drills though.

And how about these people training stick to stick jo practice?

Me thinks they are almost as rare as a WC school that actually 'spars' with poles.
(as none of the Aikido/jitsu or Karate classes I've ever witnessed or attended did)

So, Punch, I'm not disagreeing with you, I just have a different way of looking at it.

[Vajramusti]

In the oldest written history on the planet which is Japan's Nihonshiki
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oldest? On the planet? Really? When was it written and in what language
and medium?
Pre- Kanji. Language evolves and changes occur along the way. But even before
WW1 and 2... the Japanese written language was based on Chinese characters.

joy chaudhuri

[Vajramusti]

Southern poles and wing chun pole work are different from Northern spears.
China had its diversities.
Pole work may have been originally related to boats but
its usefulness continues in wing chun development of structure, function and motion, if learned properly and well. Its not just for poking.

joy chaudhuri

[Mr Punch]

In the oldest written history on the planet which is Japan's Nihonshiki
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oldest? On the planet? Really? When was it written and in what language
and medium?
Pre- Kanji. Language evolves and changes occur along the way. But even before
WW1 and 2... the Japanese written language was based on Chinese characters.

joy chaudhuri

Japanese 8th century. And it's my mistake, as it was the Kojiki I'm thinking of not the Nihonshoki. As far as I know, which may not be very (!) it's the oldest book attempt of history as opposed to murals, scrolls, a geneology lists. I may well be wrong, it has happened many times before!

My point remains the same: jujutsu style grappling, or sumai if you prefer is mentioned in that book. There are paintings from the Nara and Heian Periods depicting similar fighting. Fighting styles must have developed wherever there were people and any attempt to link Japanese jujutsu to Chinese styles definitively is as facetious and inaccurate as any attempt to state all martial arts come from the Buddha!

I don't understand the relevance of the second part of your post at all.

AmanuJRY, good points. As for the jo sparring, we did it in my aikido school about once a month. I can't really comment on how common it is as I haven't been to a representative enough sample of schools, but I have met other aikidoka who do it to some degree and some jojutsuka who did it a lot.

Good post Omar, but I'm still inclined to agree with Joy when he talks about it being a tool for structure, function and motion, though I'm not sure of what kind of function he's talking about.

You may have it historically but it's practical use in WC is still, I think, purely for energetics nowadays.

[Vajramusti]

My comments were NOT on the origins of jujutsu- but on other parts of your post(s).

1,The Indian Epics Ramayana and Mahabharata are some of the earliest written
literature on this "planet". They were written on dried palm leaves/manuscripts
apart from oral trnasmission and are sources of history including some martial arts.The palm leaf mauscripts were later on hand copied on to paper with the introduction of paper.

2. Before the introduction of Chinese kanji around 500 AD- Japanese was an isolated spoken language.

joy chaudhuri

[omarthefish]

Southern poles and wing chun pole work are different from Northern spears.
China had its diversities.
Pole work may have been originally related to boats but
its usefulness continues in wing chun development of structure, function and motion, if learned properly and well. Its not just for poking.

joy chaudhuri

Explain.

How are they different?

Aside from the sharp piece of metal on the end of one, explain how they are essentially different? BTW, I made no mention whatsoever of "northern" spears, just spears.

So far no differences have been pointed out on this thread. I'll give you that they ARE different weapons but everything that has been described so far about the basic nature, usage and reasons for training the WC pole all also apply to spear work and that includes what you posted above. Just change it ever so slightly:

Spear work may have been originally related to fighting in phalanx type groups but its usefulness continues in Baji/Xing Yi/Taijiquan/(other martial arts that still teach spear work) development of structure, function and motion, if learned properly and well. Its not just for poking.


So like uh...how is it different again?

[omarthefish]

Mr. Punch,

As I just pointed out in my last post, I wasn't speaking historically. Actually that is the place where I don't see them as being related. Historically I'm going with their adaptation from pushing boats around. I am just making a comparison between their tactical and strategic natures, their technical application and their place within martial arts training today. THAT's where I think the WC pole should be compared to the spear.

[Mr Punch]

My comments were NOT on the origins of jujutsu- but on other parts of your post(s).

I realized that. I still didn't see the relevance of your post though, as I was talking about a book written in the eighth century and somehow mention of WW1 and WW2 got in there! Plus of course we know kanji was the first codified written script in Japan so by my saying that the book was written in Japanese should have made it obvious that we were talking about kanji.

1,The Indian Epics Ramayana and Mahabharata are some of the earliest written
literature on this "planet". They were written on dried palm leaves/manuscripts
apart from oral trnasmission and are sources of history including some martial arts.The palm leaf mauscripts were later on hand copied on to paper with the introduction of paper.

Of course you've made your point: but of course I wasn't disrespecting Indian culture in my statement. My original statement was that I thought the Kojiki was the oldest history. I then clarified by saying history book.

I don't know if Ramayana or Mahabharata can be classified as history, but then by those criteria (ie, they have legendary and mythological histories entwined) I suppose the Kojiki can't either. The Nihonshoki, however, is history.

Of course all of this is irrelevant to Lee Chiang Po's unprovable comment about jujutsu, which is where my ref to Kojiki came in.

As I just pointed out in my last post, I wasn't speaking historically. Actually that is the place where I don't see them as being related. Historically I'm going with their adaptation from pushing boats around. I am just making a comparison between their tactical and strategic natures, their technical application and their place within martial arts training today. THAT's where I think the WC pole should be compared to the spear.

Oh. Right. No, that's wrong. The technical application and place within MA today of the WC pole is

it's practical use in WC is still, I think, purely for energetics nowadays.

, not as some b@stardised spear form.

I don't know if the spear has a practical application or if it's just an effective but outdated martial relic. If you've learnt any spear forms perhaps you have more to offer...?