How effective are Martial Arts in Self Defence

[unkokusai]

our football team had barely enough guys to be on the field coming from a class c school.

So, your football team sucked and you were still not good enough to make the team. Yeah, that's gotta sting..

[unkokusai]

high school is over and us nerds have been enjoying ourselves ever since

So you admit that you were a social outcast, and that that scarred you for the rest of your life.

That's sad.

That could be a 'Made for TV Movie of the Week.'

[JDK]

I trained longfist once upon a time. there is no reason why a longfist guy could not hold his own. I train with mma guys now, and they aren't always great strikers. Some are more grapling oriented. Longfist has the equivalent of basic boxing punches - they have to train them in a way conducive to fighting. heavy bag, focus mitts, plenty of combinations, etc. MasterKiller also went from longfist to mma and has said that he had no issues keep up with them from a striking perspective, but he was lost on the ground. Now, a pure boxer would likely destroy the longfist guy, but that's a different matter.

Good point.
The highly trained Western Boxer does posses the superior punch...but only with Boxing Gloves..( remember Mike Tyson and Mitc Green's Fist fight outside a Nightclub? Tyson almost knocked his eye out of its socket...BUT...fractured his hand doing it)

Nah, different rules, different ruleset. Tito is awesome on the ground, but is a horrible striker. Also, in kyokushin, you can't punch to the face, nor can you grapple. There are also some very good kyokushin guys in K-1. mma fighter georges st. pierre trained kyokushinkai for 10 years, then started bjj.

[b] I agree ..Tito isnt a great striker...and K-1 and Pride Fightiing have some tough Hombres...but...until some of them trained almost exclusively for the UFC...they were soundly defeated by the more well rounded UFC Fighters.
Maybe you have some names of kyokushin, K-I, Pride Fighters, etc... who have won the UCF.

Incidently..the Clip I posted showed kyokushin fighters striking hard to the head
was that an old clip? The Xia informed me in his earlier posts that headstrikes were not allowed in kyokushin ..maybe I misunderstood..
he said You mention Kyokushin Karate. They have a lot of tough fighters. The rule against headshots wasn't there in the past but that's beside the point. If you think that a good Kyokushin fighter can't throw a solid punch to the head because of that rule then I don't think you really know what Kyokushin is about.


JDK

[SevenStar]

Good point.
The highly trained Western Boxer does posses the superior punch...but only with Boxing Gloves..( remember Mike Tyson and Mitc Green's Fist fight outside a Nightclub? Tyson almost knocked his eye out of its socket...BUT...fractured his hand doing it)

striking surface. I know guys who train iron palm that broke their hands in fights. Such is life. that's why the bare knuck boxers preferred to strike softer areas of the body. They still posess a superior punch, it's just all in the placement.

[b] I agree ..Tito isnt a great striker...and K-1 and Pride Fightiing have some tough Hombres...but...until some of them trained almost exclusively for the UFC...they were soundly defeated by the more well rounded UFC Fighters.
Maybe you have some names of kyokushin, K-I, Pride Fighters, etc... who have won the UCF.

I gave you one - st pierre. the majority of his life was kyokushin. he trains bjj, wrestling, boxing and muay thai now, but has 16 years or karate and a 3rd degree black belt.

Incidently..the Clip I posted showed kyokushin fighters striking hard to the head
was that an old clip? The Xia informed me in his earlier posts that headstrikes were not allowed in kyokushin ..maybe I misunderstood..
he said You mention Kyokushin Karate. They have a lot of tough fighters. The rule against headshots wasn't there in the past but that's beside the point. If you think that a good Kyokushin fighter can't throw a solid punch to the head because of that rule then I don't think you really know what Kyokushin is about.

1. you can kick to the head, not punch. Notice NONE of those clips showed a punch to the head. a punch to the head will earn disqualification.

2. you read my post wrong. I'm saying lack of head punches is a disadvantage to some mma guys, as they tend to be headhunters.

3. you fight how you train. A kyokushin guy who is used to not punching to the head will fight without punching to the head, because that is what he knows. Now, once he starts working head strikes, sure he'll do them.

[JDK]

I gave you one - st pierre. the majority of his life was kyokushin. he trains bjj, wrestling, boxing and muay thai now, but has 16 years or karate and a 3rd degree black belt.

Which UFC did he win? ? ( not trying to be smart)


1. you can kick to the head, not punch. Notice NONE of those clips showed a punch to the head. a punch to the head will earn disqualification.

2. you read my post wrong. I'm saying lack of head punches is a disadvantage to some mma guys, as they tend to be headhunters.

3. you fight how you train. A kyokushin guy who is used to not punching to the head will fight without punching to the head, because that is what he knows. Now, once he starts working head strikes, sure he'll do them.[/QUOTE]

[b] I understand now. But Xia incinuated that kyokushin guys could win the UCF
and were better fighters. Now I find out that dont uch to the head and they dont Grapple ??????? Please give me a break...you and I both know they would get killed in the Octagon.

Bottem line in my humble opinion.....

I wish the "no rules" that were included in the firts 2 or 3 UFC Events were still in effect today.

But even today..under todays UFC guidlines , rules, time limitsand decisions...the UFC represents the best available "look" at what the best trained fighters on the Planet are and are not capable of.

I know there are underground fights today where some pretty tough guys fight

( do a KIMO SLICE FIGHT search online and see an example of striking with the hands only...that will chill you. Keep in mind as you watch that as much as $10,000.00 dollars is at stake in these Backyard Fights.

I maintian..EVEN if you included groin strikes, fish hooking, eye goughing and a true no-hold-barred Fight Event...the UFC Guys would adapt and win every one...just like the last 14 years.

Can I get an AMEN?

JDK

[The Xia]

SevenStar,
I don't know your friends that trained iron palm so I can't really say anything about them. However, I will say this: iron palm conditions the hand to deliver a particular, and devastating, type of strike and conditions it to protect from injuries. The key is to train it correctly.
http://members-central.optushome.com...lf/clfsifu.htm
This link that I posted a bit earlier has a good snippet on it. Here it is, "One of the most vital parts of our training under Kong Hing was the practice of "Teet Jeung Kung" or "Teet Sar Jeung" (iron palm". The iron palm training was performed on a flat leather punching bag (filled with blue metal) which was placed on a square wooden stool. Each blow was delivered with the whole force of the body's own weight crashing down hard from a standing position (with the striking hand above head level) into a low horse stance. The power generated from the impact of such a blow, is devastating as its powerful force virtually penetrates through the body causing severe internal damage and hemorrhage - usually the recipient does not feel the initial pain until hours later. (According to Sifu Lacey, this happened to two of his students back in 1970. During separate sparring bouts with him, both had been on the end of a downward smacking backfist, on the left side of their chests. The following morning both students spat blood resulting from internal hemorrhage caused by the shock vibration of the blow upon retraction)."
How's that for conditioning?
As for your comments on a pure boxer's punches compared to a longfist guy's, it depends on the man. If the longfist guy does his stuff well, he will hit very hard. The methods of punching are different but that doesn't mean they don't work. Boxing is one way to hit, but it's not the only way. It isn't superior to other methods either.
JDK,
Oops I meant to say that no punches to the head are allowed in Kyokushin fights. Kicks to the head are allowed though. And again, just because current Kyokushin rules don't allow head punches doesn't mean you shouldn't be prepared for them if you are fighting a Kyokushin man with rules that allow them. Just because they don't allow them during their fights doesn't mean the practitioner won't use them in a different venue. How many Kung Fu practitioners do you see using panther fists and tiger claws during sparring? However, if the hands are conditioned and the techniques are well drilled, don't expect them not to be used in a street situation.
And here is Georges St. Pierre's record.
http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/f...fighterID=3500
Lastly, UFC and MMA venues aren't the end all to fighting. In the streets, anything goes technique wise, and multiple opponents and weapons can enter the mix. So if you think that the UFC is the same as the streets, you are mistaken. It's a whole different ballgame. By the way, TMA was used for life and death combat. That's a historical fact. This doesn’t mean it can’t be used in competitions with rules. It just means that many techniques can’t be used there. However, there will still be a lot of stuff you can still use.

[SevenStar]

SevenStar,
I don't know your friends that trained iron palm so I can't really say anything about them. However, I will say this: iron palm conditions the hand to deliver a particular, and devastating, type of strike and conditions it to protect from injuries. The key is to train it correctly.

typical fashion - mung beans, 100 strikes per day per striking surface, moved on to steel shot... The hands are delicate, filled with many small bones and despite conditioning, can be broken. That's why target choice is important.

The power generated from the impact of such a blow, is devastating as its powerful force virtually penetrates through the body causing severe internal damage and hemorrhage - usually the recipient does not feel the initial pain until hours later. (According to Sifu Lacey, this happened to two of his students back in 1970. During separate sparring bouts with him, both had been on the end of a downward smacking backfist, on the left side of their chests. The following morning both students spat blood resulting from internal hemorrhage caused by the shock vibration of the blow upon retraction)."
How's that for conditioning?

that is a pretty hard strike! I wonder how his hand would have fared though if a blow that hard was struck at their forehead. Target choice.

As for your comments on a pure boxer's punches compared to a longfist guy's, it depends on the man. If the longfist guy does his stuff well, he will hit very hard. The methods of punching are different but that doesn't mean they don't work. Boxing is one way to hit, but it's not the only way. It isn't superior to other methods either.

I'mnot talking about strength of the punch alone, but strength, skill, effectiveness, etc. boxers don't train kicks, forms, weapons, qigong, etc. The only thing they do is punch. I seriously doubt you will EVER find a longfist guy with hands as good as a boxer.

Lastly, UFC and MMA venues aren't the end all to fighting. In the streets, anything goes technique wise, and multiple opponents and weapons can enter the mix. So if you think that the UFC is the same as the streets, you are mistaken. It's a whole different ballgame. By the way, TMA was used for life and death combat. That's a historical fact. This doesn’t mean it can’t be used in competitions with rules. It just means that many techniques can’t be used there. However, there will still be a lot of stuff you can still use.

No, they aren't. However, they are the closest thing available to it right now, which is what he's saying. Even in no rules vale tudo, you didn't see many of the techniques many of you guys talk about. That's gotta make you wonder why. Also, gladiators fought in sport to the death - wrestling and boxing. muay was the battlefield art of the soldiers of thailand. These things have been used in life or death combat as well, this is a proven fact. That really has no real relevance to the art or how it is trained today though, nor does it have any relevance to cma today.

[JDK]

With the Obvious devestating power that a True Iron Palm Master posseses,
why have NONE stepped forward and won any of the 68 UFC's ?

It would'nt matter WHO they were facing...One slap anywhere on the trunk, head or bladder are would end the fight.

If it was a grappler rushing in..a Striker staying away ( the Iron PALM man would have to be patient and let the Striker come within range) thenBAM*!

FIGHT OVER........

PS: Feel free to substitute Pride Fighting, K-I or any other Organized Contest out there...the question remains the same, Iron Palm is not outlawed or forbidden by the rules....so why hasnt anyone in 13 Years just Won One...just One...to get the money, validate and vindicate the accussations against TMA's...???

JDK




Bottem line in my humble opinion.....

I wish the "no rules" that were included in the firts 2 or 3 UFC Events were still in effect today.

But even today..under todays UFC guidlines , rules, time limitsand decisions...the UFC represents the best available "look" at what the best trained fighters on the Planet are and are not capable of.

I know there are underground fights today where some pretty tough guys fight

( do a KIMO SLICE FIGHT search online and see an example of striking with the hands only...that will chill you. Keep in mind as you watch that as much as $10,000.00 dollars is at stake in these Backyard Fights.

I maintian..EVEN if you included groin strikes, fish hooking, eye goughing and a true no-hold-barred Fight Event...the UFC Guys would adapt and win every one...just like the last 14 years.

Can I get an AMEN?

JDK
__________________
"It's not WHO'S right...its WHAT'S right" Truth Comes from many Sources
so try and disregard WHO is saying it..and explore if WHAT is being said has any Truth to It.[

[SevenStar]

you train all cma styles... why do you seem so adamantly against them? As for Iron palm, the hand is very delicate with many small bones. Their hands can break as well if a strike is misplaced. in a battle of iron palm master's fist vs. anyone's skull, I choose the skull. you likely will not find any iron palm master interested in competing though, if there are even any who are young enough... I don't keep up with the CMA scene a whole lot anymore, so I have no clue who the youngest known iron palm master is.

[JDK]

you train all cma styles... why do you seem so adamantly against them? As for Iron palm, the hand is very delicate with many small bones. Their hands can break as well if a strike is misplaced. in a battle of iron palm master's fist vs. anyone's skull, I choose the skull. you likely will not find any iron palm master interested in competing though, if there are even any who are young enough... I don't keep up with the CMA scene a whole lot anymore, so I have no clue who the youngest known iron palm master is.

I know it must seem I am against them....but I would'nt continue to train in them if I there were not other things to consider besides winning a UFC Competition. I am too old for that now anyways....( maybe some here saw the beating Shamrock took at the hands of Ortiz.. TWICE!

The UFC is a Game for the Young.

The CMA's can be praticed for lifetime.....reason number one that I practice them.

2) They do not "burn the body out" prematuraly like the Competitive Sports.
( In Boxing all trainers know that a fighter only has so many fights in them...and then they can "grow old' overnight

3) CMA's are quite effective for most conflicts one encounters in life. I seriously doubt I will ever have Chuck Liddel or ST Pierre encounter me and want to fight

4) CMA's contain the proper balance of Ying/Yang..unlike the excess Yang training in the Sport based Contests and Schools.

5) Weapon Training, and herbal supplementaton instead of Steriods and other harmful Drugs like HGH....

I could on...but the Lifetime Health Benefits are invaluable in my opinion.

My only dissappointment was that no Traditional Master has ever won a UFC Contest....training the traditional way with Iron Palm, Body, Stone Warrior
Iron Vest, Power Times Nine, etc.....

It is BECAUSE of my love for the Traditional Kung-Fu Styles that I would like to see a victory in a "World's Best Fighter" type , no holds barred Competition..no matter if it is the UFC, PRIDE FIGHTING, K-1, etc...

It's just a sobering conclusion to me...that at the end of the day...to be the best possible Fighter one can possibly be....one would HAVE to train like a UFC Top Contender.

I had this hope that us CMA's could produce someome who could win ..just once.

My own personal hang-up I guess...so I am ready to move on....

JDK

[SevenStar]

that burnout is largely a myth. you cannot COMPETE at an advanced age, but you can always train. one of my judo coaches is 80. he still rolls. another is in his early 40's and still competes on an international level. couture is in early 40's. people associate the ring game with the entire career. because one stops competing does not mean that one quits training.

[JDK]

You are right SevenStar ...I didnt mean to question the abilit of many to continue practicing most of their entire life.

As I shared on another post my 68 year old former teacher not onlyabout broke my forearms with his Three Star Blocks....but worked out at least Twice every day...PLUS on Class teaching Nights ( Mon, Tue, Wed, Fri) he didnt just sit and observe...he participated in the entire workout ( sometimes his 3rd of that day) with us...from the first 35 minute Static Stances, Snake Turns Over, Tiger Isometric, Tokens and of course the Instruction/ evaluation of each student
concernign what they were working on, andwhere they were in their training!

PLUS...one night a week HE was instructed by Master Ong..and then later Stephen Ong on a seperate Night for Black Belts Only!!!!! And from what I heard...both Ong's were very hard and disciplined, and demanded 100% effort from their Black Belts, regardless of their age!!!!!(

Stephen came down a few times during our Greenbelt Class Night ( he was around 20 at the time) and the entire tone of the Class would change.( As a 2 year student part of me hated it when he came down..because I knew we were in for a long night! ..The other part of me loved it though...knowing we would receive fresh information, direct correction on any mistakes ... and of course Martial Arts wisdom beyond his years.

Bob Keen joined us in lineup as a Student..and we practiced even harder, as Stephen's workout was much more strenuous and demanding! ( at 20 years Old..he couldnt understand why everything was so hard for us...he would stick out his leg in perfect waist high side-kick position...and talk to us at the same time..sometimes for over 2 minutes. His legs never quivered, shook and I never saw his balance faulter. ( I guess doing Stances from age 8 or 9 will do tha for you!

Bob Keen was and IS living proof to me that Traditional Shaolin and related Arts do allow for longevity and continued strength and stamina and good health.

I really miss those days.......

JDK

[The Xia]

SevenStar,
I agree that target choice is important. Many hand weapons work better on certain parts of the body then others. Iron palm does have a purpose but I don’t generally see it associated with things like punching the skull. Knuckles can be conditioned pretty **** well too though so I don't rule out the possibility of having good bare knuckle punches to the skull. I know other arts were used for no-rules combat, I'm just pointing out that CMA was. You don't generally see the types of techniques I mentioned in Vale Tudo because CMA practitioners, past and present, don't generally enter many of those. However, those techniques were used and are functional. Only a fool would poo poo them because you don't see it in the UFC. They may save your life one day. That doesn't mean a good hip toss can't do the same in a different situation. I'm just saying that you should train what suits you and consider all the angles. As for not finding a longfist guy that punches as well as a boxer, I disagree. It really depends on the practitioner. Boxers also train cardio, footwork, bobbing and weaving, etc. The thing is that they are limited to punching. This leads some to believe they are the best punchers. However, there are some boxers that don't have the best hands but rely on other things such as a cast iron jaw, phenomenal stamina, footwork, etc. I've seen fighters like that. Besides, the kinds of punching longfist has are different then boxing. It's like comparing apples and oranges. I will say one thing though, there is definitely a greater variety of hand techniques in longfist then in boxing. That doesn't mean anything unless the fighter can use all of it though. If the boxer is better with his less encompassing arsenal then the longfist guy is with his vast array of hand techniques, then the boxer has better hands. If the longfist guy is great with all his hand techniques, then that’s a different story.
JDK,
I think the reason why you don't see much TMA in MMA is because most TMA guys that want to compete generally go to their own venues. The martial arts world is divided into various communities. Sure they interact and crossover but the leap of TMA into the octagon really hasn't happened. That doesn’t discredit the validity of TMA in fighting though.

[SevenStar]

You don't generally see the types of techniques I mentioned in Vale Tudo because CMA practitioners, past and present, don't generally enter many of those.

list a few of them. I'm sure they have been seen before. No rules is no rules. I'm sure someone in another style at some point has thought of similar techniques.

However, those techniques were used and are functional. Only a fool would poo poo them because you don't see it in the UFC.

vale tudo and ufc are different entities. the vale tudo fights had few to no rules.

[quote]As for not finding a longfist guy that punches as well as a boxer, I disagree. It really depends on the practitioner. Boxers also train cardio, footwork, bobbing and weaving, etc. The thing is that they are limited to punching.[/.quote]

ALL of those are integrated into the punching. you bob and weave while punching on the mitts. you build cardio while shadow boxing and sparring, etc. the components of cma I mentioned are not like this.

This leads some to believe they are the best punchers. However, there are some boxers that don't have the best hands but rely on other things such as a cast iron jaw, phenomenal stamina, footwork, etc. I've seen fighters like that.

can you name or post footage of even one longfist guy who punches better than a boxer?

Besides, the kinds of punching longfist has are different then boxing. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

sure it is - the methodology and techniques differ. But I would say boxing's usage of hands is superior, mainly for the same reasons I always mention. That's not to say boxing is better than longfist overall.

I think the reason why you don't see much TMA in MMA is because most TMA guys that want to compete generally go to their own venues. The martial arts world is divided into various communities. Sure they interact and crossover but the leap of TMA into the octagon really hasn't happened. That doesn’t discredit the validity of TMA in fighting though.

to be honest, I think that there would be a lot more tma in mma if the tma had more success earlier. You know that mma guys are all about adapting. If tma would've had more success than muay thai, they would all be training tma and fighting with it. However, there weren't any really remarkable successes with tma in mma history, other than keith hackney.

[The Xia]

list a few of them. I'm sure they have been seen before. No rules is no rules. I'm sure someone in another style at some point has thought of similar techniques.

I agree that you will see small joint manipulation, kicks to the knee, eye gouging, etc in venues that would allow them no matter what kind of martial artists enter. But something like a panther fist is CMA.

vale tudo and ufc are different entities. the vale tudo fights had few to no rules.

I know this. A lot of old school BJJ fighters came from this format.

ALL of those are integrated into the punching. you bob and weave while punching on the mitts. you build cardio while shadow boxing and sparring, etc. the components of cma I mentioned are not like this.

I wouldn't say that. Sparring is sparring and will build stamina no matter what stylist is doing it. CMA has punching, blocking, and evading drills as well. To some extent, you can even compare forms to shadow boxing using various combo sets. I also see no reason why a CMA guy can't freestyle shadowbox using his stuff either.

can you name or post footage of even one longfist guy who punches better than a boxer?

sure it is - the methodology and techniques differ. But I would say boxing's usage of hands is superior, mainly for the same reasons I always mention. That's not to say boxing is better than longfist overall.

There's many great longfist guys. If I name or post a video of any one of them, or even an average longfist guy, he'll likely have better hands then a lousy boxer. And lousy boxers do exist. And even if we are comparing said longfist guys to skilled boxers, who is to say that the boxer will always have better hands? Sure boxing is all about punching but I can name styles of CMA that focus more on a single aspect too (perhaps not to the extent of boxing though). Take Wing Chun for example. They have some kicks and other stuff but the system is more hand focused. That doesn't necessarily mean a Wing Chun guy will have better hands then someone from a CMA that isn't as hand focused. It depends on the person. Overall though, I’d say longfist styles have more variety of hand techniques then boxing. So if the longfist guy can use his extensive arsenal better, why wouldn’t he have better hands? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying boxing sucks. It’s not a complete system though. So to be a complete fighter, you can’t rely solely on boxing. Crosstraining in it is fine towards that end though.

to be honest, I think that there would be a lot more tma in mma if the tma had more success earlier. You know that mma guys are all about adapting. If tma would've had more success than muay thai, they would all be training tma and fighting with it. However, there weren't any really remarkable successes with tma in mma history, other than keith hackney.

I would agree that perhaps MMA would be different if TMA did better early on. I think the reason it didn’t is really because of the TMA people rather then the actual TMA. Muay Thai guys in general spar more then most TMA guys. A lot of TMA guys that entered probably had point sparring as the sum of fighting experience. Many people in TMA also don’t understand the contents of their forms and don’t drill techniques well or enough. Many TMA also guys neglect conditioning. If those guys sparred in more realistic ways, understood their styles, drilled their techniques better, and were well conditioned, the story might be different. So I say it’s not the fault of the actual arts, but many of the current practitioners.