How come you never hear about Chinese archery? At least the Japanese preserved their archery arts as Kyudo. Are there any distinct forms of Chinese archery? Anyone still practicing it in the world?
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How come you never hear about Chinese archery? At least the Japanese preserved their archery arts as Kyudo. Are there any distinct forms of Chinese archery? Anyone still practicing it in the world?
don't hear much about cma that are purely weapon related at all.
You also don't hear that much about archery in general. Basically, I hear about kyudo and... well, plain old archery (whatever that means).
Yes, you might here about technologies in archery. The welsh longbow. The magyar (is that right?) short bow. Etc. But in terms of actual style, the only one I can think of that doesn't constitute just 'archery' is kyudo. And that is probably due to a combination of things. The unique design of the japanese longbow (handle closer to the bottom than the top). The practice of shooting from horseback (hardly unique to the Japanese though). The variety of arrowheads (frog crotch, whistling bulb, etc.). And the mystique of the zen practices attached to kyudo. (Hell, how many archers would espouse that hitting the target is less important than X?)
Oh, kyudo uses a different grip on the string to most archers as well. But honestly, I doubt people would find that all that fascinating in and of itself.
In short, with one exception, people don't really dig on the archery all that much. Not from a stylistic standpoint.
Stuart B.
Yeah what apoweyn said.
The reason that the Japanese keep things around that would die out elsewhere is that they turn them into a "way" or "do" whereby the act is less important than benafit to the individual of practising somthing intensively with focus.
The Chinese were more practicle and so anything that did not put food on the plate or help in doing so in the long run was lost
Having said that is there not a little country in the himalayas that still has archary as a national sport and sends a team to the olyimpics? I was reading about them a while back and at the time I thought that they were at least as Chinese as Tibet!
On a side note apoweyn, talking of the Welsh long bow: I have a friend who is great with a trad long bow and used to go out into snowdonia and hunt fox with it. Even cooler is that he used a golden eagle to hunt with as well!
My parents both hunt deer with bows (as well as muzzleloaders). They tend to prefer compound bows now, just for the reduction of work that they allow, but I learned on a traditional recurve bow.
Liokault,
My God, that's a hell of an image. I can't begin to imagine what that must be like. That's awesome.Quote:
On a side note apoweyn, talking of the Welsh long bow: I have a friend who is great with a trad long bow and used to go out into snowdonia and hunt fox with it. Even cooler is that he used a golden eagle to hunt with as well!
Nevermind the skill it must take to hit a flipping fox with a longbow.
Nice point about how the Japanese 'do' everything, by the way. Has a way of adding value back into something that, practically speaking, no longer has any. I guess part of that revalueing (sp?) is intrinsically tied to zen ideals. And zen was most influential in Japan, yeah?
Stuart B.
I recall seeing some museum pieces od several Mandarin long and Mongolian short bows. They had some impressive recurves to them, the Mongolian bows were shorter so they could shoot from horseback.
That's what I mean. We dig on archery technology. Just not necessarily on the style. Perhaps because, stylistically, archery just doesn't vary that much from one culture to another. Point and shoot.Quote:
Originally posted by Taomonkey
I recall seeing some museum pieces od several Mandarin long and Mongolian short bows. They had some impressive recurves to them, the Mongolian bows were shorter so they could shoot from horseback.
You think?
Arrow drawing and stringing techniques, point, shoot. Thats about all there is.
For the Unitiated, read Chinese Archery by Stephen Selby
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846
basic facts about the history of Chinese archery listed by eras
late neolithic/early bronze age (Xia, Shang dynsaties)
1. Chinese archery is as old as Chinese history itself. late neolithic and early bronze age Chinese religions often based around archery shaman cults like that of Yi the archer
2. the composite recurve bow is thought to have been invented in China since Shang pictographs offer the first written evidence for this type of bow. Composite bows have existed before Shang China but a composite bow of recurve design does not show up outside of China until the first millenium B.C
3. Chinese recruve bows of this era were asymetrical, long (over 55 inches) and had extremely heavy draw weights up to 160 pounds. Chinese recurve bows will be known for their incredible draw weight until the Ming dynasty. bow weights were meant to fascilitate the ability to penetrate 7 layers of toughened leather from 90 yards away
4. made from horn, woodcore (usually bamboo or mulberry) and sinew with fish glue. this is the way pretty much all composite recurve bows are made up of.
Feudal age up to warring states era(western and eastern zhou)
1. Invention of the crossbow
2. Archery is considered the 6 arts of the Jun Zi(gentleman). Emphasized by Kong Zi (most likely an archery instructor himself at one point in his life). ritual archery is created
3. via Confucian principles and the warrior nobility that has existed since China's beginnings, the Wu Shi (warrior gentleman or "knight") class develops. archery is considered the most important skill.
4. Horse archery is adapted from the Xiong Nu nomads by King Wujiang of Zhao. Soon all the warring states adopt it. it will be considered among the most important (if not the most important) military skill up until the late Qing dynasty
Early Imperial (Qin, Han,Three kingdoms,Wei-Jin, Age of fragmentation, Sui, Tang)
1. ritual archery reaches its peak of popularity during early Han dynasty.
2. Emperor Han Wu Di makes cavalry the main striking force in the Chinese military making Horse archery skills even more important
3. crossbow declines in popularity during the North-South dynasties due to popularity of heavy cavalry
4. ritual archery vanishes by age of fragmentation slowly replaced by sport archery
5. Emperor Tang Tai Zong allows archery practice to occur right in his palace(hundreds being trained right in his palace). He joins them frequently
6. Empress Wu ZeTian formalizes archery examinations (mounted, standing, sitting)
7. sport archery becomes China's most popular sport during Tang
8. Wang Ju's famous archery manual is written. archery instruction in the form of poems
late Imperial (5 dynasties ten kingdoms, Song, Jin/Liao.Xi Xia, Yuan, Ming, Qing)
1. crossbow becomes popular again
2. automatic crossbow and divine siege crossbow invented in Song
3. constant incursions of people skilled with bow like the Qidan and NuZhen during Song make archery skills even more important
4. after Mongol conquest. the traditional Chinese recurve bow is re-evaluated and adapted to Mongol style. shorter bow length, lower draw weight enabling faster shooting as well as the string bridge
5. by the Ming dynasty, 200 schools of archery styles exists
6. Manchus re-introduce popularity of long heavy draw weight bows
7. by 20th century, Chinese archery dies.
now i proudly display my own bows
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...azulbow008.jpg
this one above is a typical Ming Chinese/Mongol bow. 60 pound draw weight
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...azulbow001.jpg
this one above is more typical of pre-Yuan era Chinese bows. long length and heavy draw weight. this one is 110 pounds of draw (shown unstrung)
oh, forgot to mention
famous Chinese archers or those known for archery skills
1. Yi the archer, Kong Zi(Confucious), Yang Youji, General Li Guang, Emperor Tang Tai Zong, Wang Ju, Lu Bu, Qi Ji Guang, Yu Dayou, General Yue Fei, King Wuling of Zhao, Li Chengfen, Gao Ying...and soon
myself
Asian (to call it chinese covers to much area) archery has not died out totaly. There is at least one country that still valuse skill with a bow, its just that I cant remember who they are.
I saw a documentory on them a while back. They send a guy to the olympics with an old fashioned "normal" type bow.
YangLiCheng is right - China has an extraordinary archery heritage, but the only place you'll see it nowadays, for the most part, is in the sale of jadeite and nephrite archer rings at Chinese tourist and 'antique' stores. It's too bad really. I'm not sure why it's not more popular in China. I hear that some of the minorities still practice archery, but that's a pandora's box when it comes to CMA research. China did capture two silvers in archery at the Olympics, Li Lingjuan 1984 and He Yang in 1996.
As for other Asian nations that still practice archery, Japan has taken kyudo to a unique Zen practice. South Korea has an exemplary archery tradition - in fact, they've dominated Olympic archery for years.
Im thinking hyper trad, Like in Bhutan etc....ill look latter.
YLC, sweet bows !!!
Did you make them or buy them?
Thanks for the info. I shot a bunch as a kid/teen and taught basic archery to Scouts.
Been looking to get back into.
Yeah, here you go. Archety, national pass time of Bhutan
It was bhutan I was thinking of.
Nice pics here
people like stephen selby and myself are working to bring more awareness and interest in Chinese archery and ancient Chinese military culture in general. i've gotten my girlfriend into archery but she uses a Korean/Scythian style recurve bow (much more suited to women and children anyways so its perfect for her)
i'm getting tested for my horse riding certificate some time in the next year. then i'll be able to join the International Horse archery federation
i'm already known in my local archery club for being able to draw a 110 pound bow. :)
YangLiCheng
If you're "working to bring more awareness and interest in Chinese archery and ancient Chinese military culture in general" perhaps we can work together. See this post. :cool:
Scythian Archery is a lost martial art. lol
People in China still practice archery like anyone else though don't they?
I mean all history aside, no one uses a celtic recurve anymore either.
Bow and Arrow technology is ancient no matter where you go.
Oh I beg to differ. Pick up a modern hunting bow sometime. The technology in modern bow hunting is anything but ancient. Bow hunting is fairly popular here in the states. Bowhunter Magazine is probably bigger than any MA mag - I'll have to look through the newsstand stats to confirm this.Quote:
Bow and Arrow technology is ancient no matter where you go.
The practice of traditional archery is like the practice of any traditional weapon. I only dabbled in archery, mostly because I was horrible at it, but I have a lot of respect for it, especially kyudo since that's the form I'm most familiar with. Anyway, you gotta have skillz. Numchuk skills, bow hunting skills, computer hacking skills… girls only want boyfriends who have great skills. ;)
Hey G~ I doubly beg to differ as there is a segment of traditional bow hunters out there who do not use compound bows and opt for super quality recurves.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneChing
These can get upwards of 60lbs test or so and have no pullies, no fancy sites and no technology that hasn't been available for at least a few thousand years, although I would think some of the polymer resins are likely a little stronger.
My last bow was one of these fine pieces. My Dad has it now, so I'll probably get it again one day :D, but despite all the tech leaps in Bows and arrows, there is that group of traditionalists out there is all I'm saying.
Now those Kyudo guys in japan, well that bow is funky but the art is all about zen.
Mind you, any sort of weapon like darts, bows and arrows, spears and anything else that leaves your hand to strike a target has some zen involved. :p
hmmm no offense gene but the reason i joined was because people on the sword forum were mad at your article about the supposed "wei jia broadsword"(no such thing)Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneChing
how much ancient weapons or modern weapons made the ancient way have you handled personally
actually, no. people still practice scythian style archery. Korean archery is actually very similar to Scythian style.Quote:
Originally Posted by David Jamieson
widespread practice of Chinese archery is pretty much dying or dead. i'm one of the few left dedicated to this art form. once i get my horse riding certificate and become good at horse archery, i'll be able to represent my people's ancient glory on the battle field at the International horse archery festival
Excellent! Then perhaps you can help rectify the situation by setting us straight, in print. Do you want to help? Does anyone at sword forum want to help?Quote:
hmmm no offense gene but the reason i joined was because people on the sword forum were mad at your article about the supposed "wei jia broadsword"(no such thing)
I worked as a full-time swordmaker for about five years at The Armoury, a division of American Fencer's Supply - we made replicas for use in stage combat. We weren't a forge; we bought blades from old European forges and fashioned fittings and such. During that time, I supplemented my income dealing in antique and modern-made swords at gun shows and by word-of-mouth. I've continued to work full time in the CMA field, now for over a decade, and for two separate companies. Part of my job at both companies was to look at samples, both modern and antique, also to seek out new suppliers, so I've personally inspected a few forges and such. My position as a buyer has allowed me to see a lot of unique stuff. So I've had some experience, more than most if you'd call over a fifteen years of professional work in the industry more. How about you?Quote:
how much ancient weapons or modern weapons made the ancient way have you handled personally
http://www.3riversarchery.com/Produc...01&p=0&i=2210X
http://www.3riversarchery.com/Produc...34&p=0&i=6342X
I think I might actually score the cheaper one for my birthday this year.
"commercially" produced and not traditional materials but I've been wanting to buy a traditional bow for a while now...
Is there any difference between the chinese archery and western style archery? How many different ways are there to fire a bow?
I found this
http://www.atarn.org
some cool stuff in there.
http://www.atarn.org/festival/festiv...ival_album.htm
the links to 'letters' on this page are to letters AND pictures
http://www.atarn.org/letters/ltr_oct03.htm
Cool pictures.
That is one thing that Asian Archery traditions do that Western don't and that shooting from horseback! That's just too cool for words.
A lot of neat looking bows, they seemed to use a variety of anchor points and methods to hold the bow string. The tiny Korean bows looks like they're going to snap in half.
I notice a couple people using some sort of archery glove or tab, but no one seemed to have any sort of arm guard (bow string can sting).
Although I'ld still love to see someone use a bow like I saw in Jet Li's movie "Hero". Lay down, put the feet on the bow and draw back with both hands. ;)
I did notice a couple people demonstrating had their guide feather facing the wrong way. That's good way to strip that feather right off.
when I was really young, Ive read stories about great archers in ancient China. just some stories came to my head, Lu Bu, 3 kingdom, his famous accuracy documented in official history of "San Guo Zi" where he claimed he could shoot a flag pole down 250 steps away while he is sitting down. And he did it.
2. The famous folks tale (I forgot the name of the story but this person is a actual person, might be one of person listed above) long story short, a archer and an old man, old man claims he could pour oil into a jar with a coin (chinese anint coin with hole in the middle) on top of the mouth of the jar. The oil will not wet the coin meaning a stright line. old man did it, the archer ask the secret, the old man says, "at first I see the jar the coin and everything else, after a while, I see only the jar and the coin, I dont see surroundings, then more practice, then I only see the coin, then one day, I see nothing but pour the oil, no jar, no coin no nothing, only me and the oil, emptyness. The archer took the lesson and put it into his archery practice, and later he became a famouse archery master. :)
I would suggest for those who are interested in chinese archery and can't find someone to teach them to learn everything they can about the Western Archery. Local archery clubs or ranges are a lot easier to find. Archery is archery, and you need to get the basics down no matter what kind of bow you are using. Olympic style archery uses exclusively recurves and not the compound bows you see in hunting stores (I think a good recurve is much less expensive then a good compound bow). Also there are books and videos on "instinctual shooting", or shooting without a sight.
some traditional boyers in the states make them from dogwood cores with limbs of yew or a stiff kind of willow and oak or maple: backed by horns from Thomsons' Gazelles (preferred) or deer and sinue.Quote:
Originally Posted by YangLiCheng
"Instinctual" shooting can mean different things: Japanese instinctual is very difficult to master and can be awkward. American instinctual is the kind you mentioned above "without a sight".
bow with super high draw weights were intended to be used as "Foot Bows" where you sit on the ground and brace the bow with the pads of your feet and draw the string up to your chin with a nocked 'arrow' -more like an atlatl sized javelin, really. this kind of archery was featured in the movie "Hero".
one of the top archers currently uses a 160 lb recurve which he throws his body weight into to draw in the upright position. he has major back problems.
I heard a different version of your archer folktale. The oil salesman watches a master archer put 9 out of 10 arrows into the bullseye, and then scoffs. The archer indignantly asks 'what's so funny?' and the oil salesman demonstrates his oil pouring trick through the coin. He shows the archer the ladle after and there isn't one drop spilled or spent. The punchline went something like 'Until you can get every drop, you can't call yourself a master' or something along those lines. It was more of a humility moral and an expression of the Chinese (or perhaps Zen) notion of perfection in mundane skills.
don't make me laughQuote:
Originally Posted by Mighty Scott
while the basic fundamentals of archery are essentially the same, Chinese/Asian archery is a whole other world from western archery. everytime i go to the archery range, a big argument erupts afterwards about different methods and styles
its far more than the obvious Composite Recurve vs Long bow problem.
draw style, release method, overdrawing methods, nocking methods, stringing/unstringing, optimal angles. plus, western archers don't shoot from horseback
(Note: when i mean western archery, i refer to specifically western europe/USA. there are European peoples like the Magyars who do practice an eastern style of archery and shoot from horseback)
even within asian styles of archery, there are issues of differences.
here are examples and anecdotes of differences WITHIN asian styles of archery
1. i always recommend when shooting recurve bows under 75 pounds to use a Mongol draw and over 75 pounds to use a Chinese draw. however one of my friends insists on using Chinese draw on his 50 pounder, the Chinese draw method is meant for use on heavy bows and to overdraw. he ends up generally yanking the string and overdrawsm accidentally most of the time. he still insists on doing that method
2. static recurves with a string bridge vs static recurves with no string bridge. the string bridge is designed to absorb the shock from a heavy static recurve, some people actually like the shock :p
and many other examples...
anyway, if you want to learn Chinese archery and can't find an instructor. learn Mongol archery (NYC has a place for that)
i'm also willing to teach beginner/intermediate Chinese standing archery (still working on my horse archery skills)
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Oso, the magyar sport is an excellent bow. its made by the same guy who made one of my bows
Interesting archery link http://www.atarn.org/india/dhanurveda_eng.htm
ttt
just got my copy of "Chinese Archery"
they can be had at Amazon...I scored a used one that looks brand new.
thats good to hear, i'm glad more and more people are interested in this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oso
however, the book as the author Stephen Selby said, its more about history and technology of Chinese archery than instruction (he does teach it though)
once you get your bow, if you need any pointers, feel free to email me
sure, it's just a starting point.
where are you located?
is there a club or whatever that you go to?
thanks. if no one (hint, hint to those that read this but don't post) gets it for me for my b-day then it will be my gift to myself.
one question...should only wooden arrows be used? I have a dozen or so aluminums with my compound bow I still have.
i'm in boston.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oso
theres an archery range not too far from my house. its a gun club basically but they have their own archery field
i only use cedar shaft heavy arrows imported from hungary. the carbon graphite and aluminum arrows are only good for compound bows
YangLiCheng, if one wanted to study Chinese archery, are there instructors available in the USA? TIA.