Links to the Shamrock Vs. Gracie fight last night??

[PangQuan]

you need speed, for a throat shot, but you need force also.

the moment of contact you will need to apply burst of force to ensure damage, as the opponent will most likely be moving, so speed simply is not enough. if you dont use any force and your opponent realizes whats going on and begins to move away from you, its worthless.

it is striking.

just a slight differnce in form of hand (ie: leapord, crane, etc...), but the same principles apply.

[gabe]

regardless of how much he practices it, he doesn't have as much of a chance. How often to you see thai boxers land flying knees as opposed to skinp knees or roundhouses? Louisseau ended a fight with a jump spinning back kick and was an avid tkd guy before going mma. In that same fight though, he missed his first couple of attempts, and missed his jump roundhouse. Why? It's not secret that some things tend to be more successful than others. Such is the natrue of the human body. a jab is a lot less likely to telegraph than a jump spinning back kick, period.



1. I didn't ask if they sparred in a ring - I had already assumed it was a friendly match.



No, you never know what to expect. I actually expect headbutts though. In the in-fighting game, though illegal, they can be pretty common due to accidents and due to the fact that you can do them without getting caught. I see what you're saying, but from a fighting perspective, that's kinda silly. I'm not gonna waste time training defense against a jump spinning kick, for example, when that time is better spent working defense against knees, crosses, etc.



you mentioned it was a friendly match. Ask him if it was real, would he have been stopped by it, or could he have continued through. he probably could have continued, but since it was friendly was like "Hey, good shot."

You brought up the jump roundhouse, not me. You don't seem to be able to follow the conversation. Low percentage or high percentage is context dependent, yet you keep trying to generalize to overall blanket statements. In some cases, jabs are appropriate. But not very high percentage at certain ranges, correct? The analysis is completely dependent on that split second of time you have to execute and your ability to follow through. Not on what happens over three rounds. And addressing something you call "low percentage" does not mean ignoring your so-called high percentage techniques.

You mentioned the ring, not me. My point was he didn't know what to expect because of that reason. If you knew it wasn't in the ring, why bring it up?

Secondly, you have no basis to judge if they were going all out simply because it was friendly. They are competitors, don't like to lose, have a poor understanding of pain, and spar hard. As demonstrated with that elbow drop. Yes, people can fight through a lot of stuff, groin kicks, headbutts, etc. But that second it stops you can be fatal. That elbow set him up for serious injury if the opponent were to keep going with no ref to stop it. You can either dismiss it as freak accident, bet that you will be able to fight through it, or adjust accordingly to prevent something that powerful from getting to you again. Such analysis goes beyond- "Aaah, he'll never pull that one off on me" or "nobody does that kind of thing."

Call it low %, call it high. It happened. He got caught. It really hurt.

[SevenStar]

You brought up the jump roundhouse, not me. You don't seem to be able to follow the conversation. Low percentage or high percentage is context dependent, yet you keep trying to generalize to overall blanket statements. In some cases, jabs are appropriate. But not very high percentage at certain ranges, correct? The analysis is completely dependent on that split second of time you have to execute and your ability to follow through. Not on what happens over three rounds. And addressing something you call "low percentage" does not mean ignoring your so-called high percentage techniques.

You mentioned the ring, not me. My point was he didn't know what to expect because of that reason. If you knew it wasn't in the ring, why bring it up?

I wasn't referring to the ring in terms of your friend, read what I said. I said when you ARE fighting in the ring, you are told ahead of time who your opponent is. It was used to point out why exactly it would be a waste of time to train low % techniques and defenses - you have time to study your opponent, and you know what his usual tactics are. THAT is what you train to defeat. I don't think low or high % is that context dependent.

there is only one range to use the jab, really. No fighter worth his salt will jab from beyond range, unless he's trying to feint, and even then the feint is more believable when done from punching range.

you are correct in saying that training a low % technique doesn't mean you have to ignore the high % ones. however, you are taking away training time that can be used for the high %, which is what I have been saying.

Secondly, you have no basis to judge if they were going all out simply because it was friendly. They are competitors, don't like to lose, have a poor understanding of pain, and spar hard. As demonstrated with that elbow drop.

doesn't matter if if was hard - it was still friendly. I spar hard, but it's never at the intensity that it is in competition or at work.

[gabe]

I wasn't referring to the ring in terms of your friend, read what I said. I said when you ARE fighting in the ring, you are told ahead of time who your opponent is. It was used to point out why exactly it would be a waste of time to train low % techniques and defenses - you have time to study your opponent, and you know what his usual tactics are. THAT is what you train to defeat. I don't think low or high % is that context dependent.

there is only one range to use the jab, really. No fighter worth his salt will jab from beyond range, unless he's trying to feint, and even then the feint is more believable when done from punching range.

you are correct in saying that training a low % technique doesn't mean you have to ignore the high % ones. however, you are taking away training time that can be used for the high %, which is what I have been saying.



doesn't matter if if was hard - it was still friendly. I spar hard, but it's never at the intensity that it is in competition or at work.

You went from saying low or high% is not very context dependent to explaining how the effectiveness of jabs is completely context dependent. LOL. Bringing up a jumping roundhouse kick when talking about jabs is senseless- it was a silly way to try to prove your low vs. high percentage theories. Thereare many things that work well within jab range besides a jab- what you decide to use depends on what you train which determines what is low or high percentage. Can you pull it off. Can he stop you. Was it the right time. That determines what works. Not these hindsight blanket labels.

Your ring discussion is still pointless. You train to fight people you know and studied beforehand, we train to fight people we don't know. Suit yourself.

Ignoring high percentage techniques is stupid as we both agree. We just don't agree about ignoring so-called low percentage technique. My friend got caught with one. He won't ignore it in the future. You are aguing that he is wasting his time. Suit yourself.

By friendly, I mean off the street. They don't hate each other. In competition, you have rules and a fear of disqualification as well as a ref to stop it when necessary. Outside, you don't have any of those things unless you want to. You can't judge how hard they spar unless you've sparred them. Nobody here goes "all out" in any competition or sparring, only in real fights on the street. Otherwise, there is always some level of restraint.

If you are trying to argue that if they were going "all out, " the elbow would have been ineffective to stop him- pure speculation. The pain coupled with him stopping momentarily is all it takes to lose a fight. All it takes is one second of hesitation for another fighter to end it on you. If you encourage your fighters to take certain shots betting that it won't phase them- I feel sorry for them. "don't worry bud, you'll be able to fight through it!"

[SevenStar]

You went from saying low or high% is not very context dependent to explaining how the effectiveness of jabs is completely context dependent. LOL.

No. I stated that the jab only has one range. no competent fighter would use it outside of this range. If that is context related, I am missing it.

Bringing up a jumping roundhouse kick when talking about jabs is senseless- it was a silly way to try to prove your low vs. high percentage theories. Thereare many things that work well within jab range besides a jab- what you decide to use depends on what you train which determines what is low or high percentage. Can you pull it off. Can he stop you. Was it the right time. That determines what works. Not these hindsight blanket labels.

it's not a way to prove - it's a comparison. But that's cool - compare a jump rounhouse and a regular roundhouse - same range, regular roundhouse has a better chance. compare a jab to the face and a half knuckle to the throat. same range, jab is more likely to land. I know you see the point I'm making, you're nitpicking.

Your ring discussion is still pointless. You train to fight people you know and studied beforehand, we train to fight people we don't know. Suit yourself.

we train for an inevitability, you train for a possibility. we train for fights we know we will have (in the case of competitors) where as you train for an opponent you may never even come against. That alone can have differing effects on training, but that's a different thread.

Ignoring high percentage techniques is stupid as we both agree. We just don't agree about ignoring so-called low percentage technique. My friend got caught with one. He won't ignore it in the future. You are aguing that he is wasting his time. Suit yourself.

yeah, we agree to disagree on that one.

By friendly, I mean off the street. They don't hate each other. In competition, you have rules and a fear of disqualification as well as a ref to stop it when necessary. Outside, you don't have any of those things unless you want to. You can't judge how hard they spar unless you've sparred them. Nobody here goes "all out" in any competition or sparring, only in real fights on the street. Otherwise, there is always some level of restraint.

when you are in a ring, you are going for a KO. when you are in the street you are fighting to survive. friendly sparring is less intense than that. I don't have to have sparred either of them to know that. if it is a friendly match, they don't want to KO or kill eachother - they are training. I disagree that nobody here goes all out in competition. from a strength and speed perspecitve - trying to down your opponent, yes, you go all out. I guess from some people's "street lethal" perspective you do not, as you aren't trying to kill eachother.

If you are trying to argue that if they were going "all out, " the elbow would have been ineffective to stop him- pure speculation. The pain coupled with him stopping momentarily is all it takes to lose a fight. All it takes is one second of hesitation for another fighter to end it on you. If you encourage your fighters to take certain shots betting that it won't phase them- I feel sorry for them. "don't worry bud, you'll be able to fight through it!"

you are right - it is speculation, based off of my experience. That is why I am asking you more specific questions about his account. I want to know how he felt about it. The pain coupled with him stopping - that is indeed enough to end a fight, assuming he stops and assuming the pain is great enough to make him stop. IME, in this situation, that's unlikely. As for your final sentence, I guess that is a mindset difference between you and I. I will not say "don't go for the shoot, because he might drop an elbow that might have some effect" I'm gonna tell him to commit to it. that it a fighter's mindset. it's that committment that gets you in deep enough to remove all doubt that strikes will be ineffective.

[WinterPalm]

No... you apply them at full speed, not full force.

Huge difference- full force requires encountering resistance (hitting something in the case of striking or working against the opponent in the case of grappling) which is the key to being able to make them work.

I could apply my locks and chokes all day long without a resisting opponent (or just hitting the air in your case) and it wouldn't do a bit of good in terms of application.

But you see that is where you are still wrong although you are right about training the locks and chokes. I still have to get by his defenses, his counters, his parries, his shoots, and everything else. I'm not saying it is some magic wand here, but it is something that is applied with force, because he is resisting, and then it is pulled at the end...just like armbar is pulled at the end. You never really encounter resistance in striking, unless they clinch or otherwise grab you. Maybe I was off on the technical terminology but it is still very similar.
I know that if I didn't pull that technique, there's a very good chance it would mess him up. Much like you know that if you didn't pull your technique it would probably bust his arm. Both of those can and cannot be fight stoppers.

[gabe]

"No. I stated that the jab only has one range. no competent fighter would use it outside of this range. If that is context related, I am missing it"

That is completely context related. The range is the context.

As far as that comparison of kick to jab- yes- that is completely senseless. What has a higher probability of landing is dependent on your ability. Are you telling me that elbows from that muay thai guy has the same probability of landing as you or me? The answer is no. It is not a low percentage technique for him.

Which fight was it that ended with a flying knee kick. Had he kicked the guy with his foot, it would have been faster given the distance and just as strong. But, no, he came all the way in jumping with his knee at which point he could have used his arms as well and stayed on his feet. He knocked him out. Who are we to say that was a stupid move given all the other options he had? He executed.

"we train for an inevitability, you train for a possibility. we train for fights we know we will have (in the case of competitors) where as you train for an opponent you may never even come against. That alone can have differing effects on training, but that's a different thread."

No, we train based on what we have come against. We don't ignore what we expect to come against but we adapt based on our experiences instead of ignoring them. If you stay in your circle of sport, yes , it is unlikely to face people outside that generic fighting method. Suit yourself. We love people who we have no idea what they have to offer. They force us to think outside the box.

As far as sparring, KO's are just fine. When we box, hell, that's all we try to do is KO each other. Those two I mention are not regular sparring partners, they got together and tried each other out. If one of them could have KO'd the other, I don't doubt they would have knowing them. Yes, you speculate on your experience but they aren't part of it.

And to clarify, I never said don't go for the shoot. Sure, commit or else it don't work. Of course. But my friend would say try to be mindful of the elbow by doing xyz His execution his setup, his approach changed...Again, don't tell me he doesn't understand a shoot or is scared to use it. It's his bread and butter.

A fighter's mindset is not to be stupid. My old boxing coach was adamant about not exposing yourself to that KO, and that was his teaching paradigm. He said all it takes is one punch. He hated those boxers willing to take punches. That is how my friend sees it as well. A real fighter understands that one mistake is all it takes.

[SevenStar]

As far as that comparison of kick to jab- yes- that is completely senseless. What has a higher probability of landing is dependent on your ability. Are you telling me that elbows from that muay thai guy has the same probability of landing as you or me? The answer is no. It is not a low percentage technique for him.

I am a muay thai guy. I see your point though. and it would depend on the elbow being thrown. a cross or diagonal have a better chance than a spinning and possibly a stabbing. There are several different elbow strikes - directional, jumping, spinning, etc and some have a better chance of landing than others, yes.

Which fight was it that ended with a flying knee kick. Had he kicked the guy with his foot, it would have been faster given the distance and just as strong. But, no, he came all the way in jumping with his knee at which point he could have used his arms as well and stayed on his feet. He knocked him out. Who are we to say that was a stupid move given all the other options he had? He executed.

I wouldn't consider a flying knee stupid. And as has been stated, anything has a chance of landing. but natrually, you can't train to defend everything - there isn't enough time. this is where principles come in. strikes come along similar angles, train against the more common strikes, but others have similar angles, so they shouldn't be foreign to you anyway.

No, we train based on what we have come against. We don't ignore what we expect to come against but we adapt based on our experiences instead of ignoring them. If you stay in your circle of sport, yes , it is unlikely to face people outside that generic fighting method. Suit yourself. We love people who we have no idea what they have to offer. They force us to think outside the box.

you train based on the attacker you may encounter in the street, bar, etc. - it's no secret that many people who train will never even be in an encounter in their adult lives. Granted, this training may be based on someone else's past experience, but this still is training for an attacker that you may never actually face yourself. crime statistics can show that. I'm not in a circle of sport, I am a bouncer in a club, so I deal with all types of people on a regularly basis. sporst techniques, training and mindset have not failed me thus far.

As far as sparring, KO's are just fine. When we box, hell, that's all we try to do is KO each other.

that's new to me. pro fighters don't even try to KO eachother while sparring, IME. that's why it's called training. you KO someone and a doc will tell them not to spar for several weeks. If they have a fight coming up, this is detrimental to them. Even if they don't have a fight coming up, if they spar too soon after the KO, complications can arise if there are multiple concussions sustained.

And to clarify, I never said don't go for the shoot. Sure, commit or else it don't work. Of course. But my friend would say try to be mindful of the elbow by doing xyz His execution his setup, his approach changed...Again, don't tell me he doesn't understand a shoot or is scared to use it. It's his bread and butter.

I'm not talking about his shoot - I'm talking about your last post regarding it. However, what you just posted, I don't disagree with. I still would love to hear his account of it. I REALLY want to know.

A fighter's mindset is not to be stupid. My old boxing coach was adamant about not exposing yourself to that KO, and that was his teaching paradigm. He said all it takes is one punch. He hated those boxers willing to take punches. That is how my friend sees it as well. A real fighter understands that one mistake is all it takes.

this I don't disagree with either. committing to the shot is not to expose yourself to it - this is part of why I want to hear his account. A shoot is done from in close. I want to hear what he has to say about this elbow that would've stopped him from that close range.

[Black Jack II]

It is not a low percentage technique for him.

Thats because elbows are a gross motor movement and fall into a high percentage technique for almost anyone.

[Knifefighter]

But you see that is where you are still wrong although you are right about training the locks and chokes. I still have to get by his defenses, his counters, his parries, his shoots, and everything else. I'm not saying it is some magic wand here, but it is something that is applied with force, because he is resisting, and then it is pulled at the end...just like armbar is pulled at the end. You never really encounter resistance in striking, unless they clinch or otherwise grab you. Maybe I was off on the technical terminology but it is still very similar.
I know that if I didn't pull that technique, there's a very good chance it would mess him up. Much like you know that if you didn't pull your technique it would probably bust his arm. Both of those can and cannot be fight stoppers.

That's exactly the reasoning behind why the "too deadly for full contact" guy get creamed every time they go against someone who trains with full resistance.

One of the problems with this approach is that you don't get used to taking hard hits. Taking hits is probably 75% of what will make one successful if he ever has to go against some one who is somewhat skilled or more athletic or bigger and stronger.

[SenseiShellie]

REALLY!?

I don't think he was "playing it" at all. Renzo is a true warrior. The guy is tough. He's had his arm snapped in competition before and gave the ref a hard time for stopping the fight!

I've even heard a story where he was stabbed through the fence at a competition before.

He tried to stand up after the knees and his legs were so wobbley he couldn't stand.

He refused the neck collar and the stretcher. If he could have continued, there's no doubt that he would have.

The Gracies are a very proud family. I don't think he was "playing it" at all.

I don't think he was either...in fact, I saw him go out after the first knee. It was a flash ko. Herb Dean warned Shamrock in the first round I believe. In the 2nd round, he took away a point. Shamrock loaded those knees up on the fence and threw them. Did he mean to? Sure...it's a fight! However, did he want to get DQ'ed? No way. He wanted the KO...that's all. They are both awesome warriors and wanted to win. I think that Herb Dean followed the rules set forth by Elite XC and did what he had to do. He discussed it with people before renderring the decision. No use crying over spilled milk. It happened...now, let's wait for the rematch. It may turn out differently...if it does, cool. Then there's a rubber match if Shamrock wins. That would be cool...

[Knifefighter]

I don't think he was either...in fact, I saw him go out after the first knee.

I didn't see him go out until he saw the referee looking and starting to come in.

[PangQuan]

Taking hits is probably 75% of what will make one successful if he ever has to go against some one who is somewhat skilled or more athletic or bigger and stronger.

word up............

[WinterPalm]

That's exactly the reasoning behind why the "too deadly for full contact" guy get creamed every time they go against someone who trains with full resistance.

One of the problems with this approach is that you don't get used to taking hard hits. Taking hits is probably 75% of what will make one successful if he ever has to go against some one who is somewhat skilled or more athletic or bigger and stronger.

Ah, but we do not just train in things like this. This is more situational self-defense based application. We also spar at a high and painful level of contact regularily taking shots all over the place (punches, kicks, throws, trips, etc) all on a cement floor, which is very painful when we incorporate takedowns.
There is no resistance if I do what I do properly...that said, I agree that one needs to know how to take a hit and should train at a high level of intensity and contact on a regular basis.

[wind draft]

what a bunch of whinners!!! Shamrocks rocks!! He knocked the mutha out...who cares...If renzo did the same, then thats great it doesn't matter who did what. It's pure entertaining and way better than most martial art fighting tournament i've seen so who cares..

Didn't you guys all enjoy the action? okay then...

It's funny people always do this.. oh look mma is not cool, too many rules, then exciting fighting like this people complain, oh look he cheated; unsportsman....this same group of people also say kung fu won't work in fighting.. and blah blah blah about bbj and how kung fu guys always get taken to the ground. well what shamrock is called kung fu to the head.. haha!!

wow people get a life!! haha!!! stop wasting time typing and reading.. maybe go practice!! lol