What works and what doesn't work

[CelticRedman]

With all of the back and forth in this thread I'm confused about a few things, mainly the original point of the thread. Maybe some of the folks can help me figure out a few things:

1. I've watched the videos mentioned (by LaRoux) including the "R. Williams-S. Obasi video he or someone else mentioned - I forgot - and was hoping for specifics on whether the techniques were considered ineffective for street (as opposed to MMA, "the ring, etc.) and whether or not street vs. ring makes a difference.

2. Are we talking about comparing WC vs. BJJ, Small joint locks vs. other things or what? Forgive my ignorance but I'm kind of lost in the conversation even after reading the entire thread.

3. I'm not loyal to any one system or man's methods, but I do have an affinity for martial arts that employ trapping, small joint locks and strikes. I do also have a background in both Japanese Jujutsu and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and understand their benefits and shortcomings in actual fights (if you want to consider several decades of law enforcement experience as well as decades of experience in various martial arts as an indicator of my "thought process). I'm wondering are we more concerned about our own beliefs vs. actual "proof of concept" here.

For the record, I am NOT a student of anyone mentioned in this thread I'm just trying to learn and understand. If anyone who can help me with that I'd appreciate it.

Thanks!

Carlos

[CRCAVA]

CRCAVA- supposedly, you are bjj black belt under Dave Camarillo. Do you not see all the holes in this "groundwork" video that Randy is demonstrating, as well as the RNC defense?

Randy Willams Groundwork Demo??!!??

RNC Defense??!!??

I am a BJJ Black Belt through Dave Camarillo and I train BJJ 6 days a week. The Randy Williams CRCA Ground Fighting videos are great! They offer WC practitioners the ability to translate and better understand WC concepts on the ground. Is it BJJ? No... nor does Sifu Williams state it to be BJJ. It is a completely different approach to ground fighting than BJJ. I find it to be a beautiful complement to BJJ & MMA.

[Kellen Bassette]

Forgive my ignorance but I'm kind of lost in the conversation even after reading the entire thread.

Welcome to the forum Carlos. Sometimes I read my own posts and can't figure out what I'm talking about. Some of us, myself included are prone to tangents...it gets tough to follow.

[CelticRedman]

Thanks, Kellen. Appreciate it!

[CelticRedman]

Thank you as well CRCAVA.

[SoCo KungFu]

CRCAVA- supposedly, you are bjj black belt under Dave Camarillo. Do you not see all the holes in this "groundwork" video that Randy is demonstrating, as well as the RNC defense?

Randy Willams Groundwork Demo??!!??

RNC Defense??!!??

1) He takes a great assumption that his tech will be there. He's doing absolutely nothing to control the opponent in that exchange other than apparently stepping on his fingers...yawn...people don't just sit there on all 4's

2) I don't have to be a black belt to know I don't get out of a RNC by dropping to my knees and allowing an enemy that already has my back to gain further leverage.

[CelticRedman]

I've never had to do a real world escape from a BJJ style Rear Naked Choke but I HAVE had to get out of an old fashioned rear headlock when recovering from my own stupidity arresting someone. I've never trained with Randy Williams (though I've met some folks who have (with varying degrees of still)). I've personally trained in another art with a similar technique and it definitely worked for me! In fact I was threatened with a lawsuit for using it. Only difference from the vid I saw of R.W. was that I sent the perp off on an angle (and my knee didn't like it too much).

I know some guys in the Gracie camp who would challenge some of R.W.'s techniques in the Groundwork vid but only at a very technical level. In fact, unless you were putting a master level WC person against a master level BJJ person, I don't see where the techniques are "flawed," much less "wrong." Then again I'm not a MMA guy so I have NO idea how this would all pan out on the mat. I HAVE "rolled" in the street with guys who saw too many episodes of The Ultimate Fighter yet managed to get back up and use other tools to survive and effect an arrest. What I learned was that conditioning is important. I also learned that I'm lucky that folks get too busy getting position to snatch my weapon, or concentrate so much on my weapon that they can't do techniques and that includes a BJJ purple belt who wondered why he couldn't ground me trying to escape my handcuffing technique.

Sorry so wordy.

[YouKnowWho]

RNC Defense

It depends on who can drop down faster. If

- you can drop down faster than your opponent (you are lower than him), you can throw him over your head. You may not even need to use "sacrifice throw". Whether his RNC can drag you down or not depends on how good his RNC is.
- he can drops down faster than you (he is lower than you), he can pull you down backward.

In that clip, the instructor assumed that he could drop down faster than his opponent which was a valid assumption (in that clip, his opponent had no intention to drop). Of course if you can move your butt out, and move one of your arms behing your opponent and surround his waist that will be even better.

If your opponent is not smart enough to step back, use leverage, and force your butt to sit on the ground, you will still have chance to counter his RNC (head lock, or ...).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-VP9...ature=youtu.be

[YouKnowWho]

unless you were putting a master level WC person against a master level BJJ person, I don't see where the techniques are "flawed," much less "wrong."

Agree with you 100% there. Can A's technique work on B? Until oneday that A and B meet, nobody will be able to know the answer.

Old Chinese saying said,

- "If your opponent can get a head lock on you, you are not a good wrestler."

Old Chinese saying also said,

- "If you can't get a head lock on your opponent, you are not a good wrestler."

These 2 old saying just contradict each other big time. MA is like the Chinese spear and shield paradox.

In the story, a man was trying to sell a spear and a shield. When asked how good his spear was, he said that his spear could pierce any shield. Then, when asked how good his shield was, he said that it could defend from all spear attacks. Then one person asked him what would happen if he were to take his spear to strike his shield; the seller could not answer.

http://imageshack.us/a/img607/5666/spearshield.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img826/5230/spearshield1.jpg

[SoCo KungFu]

RNC Defense

It depends on who can drop down faster. If

- you can drop down faster than your opponent (you are lower than him), you can throw him over your head. You may not even need to use "sacrifice throw". Whether his RNC can drag you down or not depends on how good his RNC is.
- he can drops down faster than you (he is lower than you), he can pull you down backward.

In that clip, the instructor assumed that he could drop down faster than his opponent which was a valid assumption (in that clip, his opponent had no intention to drop). Of course if you can move your butt out, and move one of your arms behing your opponent and surround his waist that will be even better.

If your opponent is not smart enough to step back and force your butt to sit on the ground, you will still have chance to counter his RNC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-VP9...ature=youtu.be

Or I can just do what I learned the first day of BJJ take leg hooks or body triangle and none of the above matters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95Q92OV_DG0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&fe...&v=vPO8AmvxYsQ

Its not so easy to shake somebody as people would like to think. A knee drop seoi nage (what I'm assuming he was trying to mimic) can work but it also can fail and land you in a really ****ty situation. Its an unnecessary risk when you can do the same technique without giving up your footing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUN8-...e=results_main

or this

http://themartialartsreporter.com/es...r-naked-choke/

[LaRoux]

I am a BJJ Black Belt through Dave Camarillo and I train BJJ 6 days a week. The Randy Williams CRCA Ground Fighting videos are great! They offer WC practitioners the ability to translate and better understand WC concepts on the ground. Is it BJJ? No... nor does Sifu Williams state it to be BJJ. It is a completely different approach to ground fighting than BJJ. I find it to be a beautiful complement to BJJ & MMA.

If you think getting choked out is a good complement to BJJ & MMA, good for you.

Since you don't seem to understand the deficiencies in the techniques being shown, maybe you could ask Dave to explain them to you.

Out of curiosity, how long did it take you to get your BJJ black belt?

[LaRoux]

RNC Defense

It depends on who can drop down faster.

It has nothing to do with dropping down faster.

[LaRoux]

I know some guys in the Gracie camp who would challenge some of R.W.'s techniques in the Groundwork vid but only at a very technical level.

They would criticize them on all technical levels.

In fact, unless you were putting a master level WC person against a master level BJJ person, I don't see where the techniques are "flawed," much less "wrong."
Then again I'm not a MMA guy so I have NO idea how this would all pan out on the mat. I HAVE "rolled" in the street with guys who saw too many episodes of The Ultimate Fighter yet managed to get back up and use other tools to survive and effect an arrest.

It works the same on the mat as it does on the street.

[LaRoux]

I also learned that I'm lucky that folks get too busy getting position to snatch my weapon,

Too busy getting position to snatch your weapon? If they get the proper position on you, it simple for them to grab your weapon and you won't be able to do much about it.

You must have thought they were going for position, when in reality (and lucky for you), they knew nothing about positioning.

[CRCAVA]

This thread really needs some help... I can't believe how close minded everyone is. @LaRoux, I've been training BJJ since I was 7 years old... I understand the RNC and all of its variations, offense, defense & escapes. I'm not even going to entertain the idea of a guy who won't give his REAL name is going to evaluate my BJJ game. It's so far beyond laughable... As far as Randy Williams WC Ground work techniques... They are all very good "Wing Chun" ground techniques. You really should take a class with Randy on ground fighting and get the real deal instead of being a YouTube hero and over analyzing a freaking video. I've already challenged @Laroux to fight several times and you declined... Which is fine, that the only smart thing you've done on this forum is agree not to fight me. Now with all that aside I challenge you to open your mind and train. Really train... Not YouTube train, serious training. If you do this you will change your mind... Until then you wil just be a sad man behind a keyboard wishing he had half the answers he claims to have.