The shot in MMA (aka the double leg)

[Happy Tiger]

Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

The

1. ?(Tuo) – chin,
2. ?(Wu) – face,
3. ?(Feng) – Throat,
4. ?(Mo) – forehead,
5. ?(Tong) - shoulder,
6. ?(Gai) - upper arm,
7. ...

are all good contact points for "push". Since one will need one hand to push, Chinese wrestlers don't like to use both hands to grab the leading leg.

Nice...one oh one in Hapkido too

[bawang]

Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

In the beginner level, you may like to use single leg and double leg because it's easy to develop. When you have developed more grappling skills, you will prefer other moves.

You don't need to use both hands to shoot for "single leg". One hand should be enough. Your other hand can do a lot of other things.

you say this because you are biased from shuai jiao. shuai jiao is manchu bukku wrestling, and manchus dont like leg holds.

(chinese were forbidden by law to wrestle)

[Wayfaring]

Originally Posted by Frost

When done properly is probably one of the safest takedowns you can do in MMA
That is all feel free to disagree I will not be deleting the thread don’t worry

Yeah - it's the "when done properly" part that's the problem. The main sticking point I've seen with people is the difference between getting penetration with your hips so your upper body is close to vertical when driving through the takedown ("correct") vs. the head stuck out in a "guillotine me" position and trying to finish it with the upper body horizontal to the ground and trying to run fast to drive through ("incorrect").

[YouKnowWho]

Originally Posted by bawang

you say this because you are biased from shuai jiao.

Common sense tell us that we should not expose out head under our opponent's attack. This common sense has nothing to do with style.

This is "抱腿(Bao Tui) - single leg" followed by "手别(Shou Bei) - hand block" which is very similiar to "double leg". Instead of "get both at the same time", you "get 1 first and get the other after".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imL5eGzivr4

Originally Posted by Wayfaring

"guillotine me".

That's exactly my concern. If your head is

- horizontal, your opponent can press your neck and drag you to the ground (or guillotine you).
- vertical, your opponent can press back on your forehead, the harder that you advance, the more pain that will be put on your neck.

It's risky in both cases. If you get a broken neck, you are finish for the rest of your life.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

Common sense tell us that we should not expose out head under our opponent's attack. This common sense has nothing to do with style.

This is "抱腿(Bao Tui) - single leg" followed by "手别(Shou Bei) - hand block" which is very similiar to "double leg". Instead of "get both at the same time", you "get 1 first and get the other after".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imL5eGzivr4


That's exactly my concern. If your head is

- horizontal, your opponent can press your neck and drag you to the ground (or guillotine you).
- vertical, your opponent can press back on your forehead, the harder that you advance, the more pain that will be put on your neck.

It's risky in both cases. If you get a broken neck, you are finish for the rest of your life.

The reason I started this thread was because of this misinformed view of the double.. There have been 2 or at most 3 cases or a Brocken neck due to the double leg in the last 15 years, and these have been due to how you land NOT your opponent pushing your head backwards, this has never happened as far as I am aware, if you can site sources ill gladly read them, otherwise please keep the fantasy stuff to the wing chun forum

[Frost]

Originally Posted by Wayfaring

Yeah - it's the "when done properly" part that's the problem. The main sticking point I've seen with people is the difference between getting penetration with your hips so your upper body is close to vertical when driving through the takedown ("correct") vs. the head stuck out in a "guillotine me" position and trying to finish it with the upper body horizontal to the ground and trying to run fast to drive through ("incorrect").

Hence the “when done properly” thing, but id argue even when done incorrectly if you have enough momentum its still hard to finish the guillotine, the main problem I see in addition to what you are talking about is not using enough momentum people think they just need to get in on the legs, and pull or push and people will magically fall over (see YKWs clip below) you need to penetrate. and keep going…. run them through the cage wall you should aim to finish the double leg several feet past them ( by several I mean 5 or 6)

[sanjuro_ronin]

The guillotine is always an issue BUT because it IS an issue, one trains how to counter it.
If the person sprawls, like they should, then the guillotine is less of an issue.
If the person tries for the guillotine and the shoot is done "half assed" then there is a good chance that it will get sunk in ( if the defender knows how to do it).
If the shoot is done right AND the guy still tries for the guillotine it will be very hard for him to get the guard and without the guard, you have no guillotine.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin

The guillotine is always an issue BUT because it IS an issue, one trains how to counter it.
If the person sprawls, like they should, then the guillotine is less of an issue.
If the person tries for the guillotine and the shoot is done "half assed" then there is a good chance that it will get sunk in ( if the defender knows how to do it).
If the shoot is done right AND the guy still tries for the guillotine it will be very hard for him to get the guard and without the guard, you have no guillotine.

a former hawkeye had us practise the shot over and over, he was getting us to work on proper penetration and impact ….at the end he had us just bast through the guy, head outside straight back into the guard: the guillotine should have been easy, but when you are being slammed back 5 feet and the impact is so great that even on crash mats you lose your breath, it’s not that easy to guillotine people
Now am I advocating doing the shot incorrectly, no BUT with the proper attitude and penetration even done incorrectly you will still have a good chance of smashing the guy

[sanjuro_ronin]

Originally Posted by Frost

a former hawkeye had us practise the shot over and over, he was getting us to work on proper penetration and impact ….at the end he had us just bast through the guy, head outside straight back into the guard: the guillotine should have been easy, but when you are being slammed back 5 feet and the impact is so great that even on crash mats you lose your breath, it’s not that easy to guillotine people
Now am I advocating doing the shot incorrectly, no BUT with the proper attitude and penetration even done incorrectly you will still have a good chance of smashing the guy

For sure, and when it is done in the right "range"...well...lets just say you hands are a bit occupied to get the guillotine in well enough.
The main thing that makes the guillotine work is the use of the legs to keep the opponent in place to apply and sink it in, when the shoot is done the right way and at the right range, those legs will under the control of the shooter.
Sure the DBL leg tends to put the defender in position to apply the guard but only IF the shooter just "lays there" after he gets the guy down.
Don't know many that do that, they typically control the legs and move in for side control or whatnot.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin

For sure, and when it is done in the right "range"...well...lets just say you hands are a bit occupied to get the guillotine in well enough.
The main thing that makes the guillotine work is the use of the legs to keep the opponent in place to apply and sink it in, when the shoot is done the right way and at the right range, those legs will under the control of the shooter.
Sure the DBL leg tends to put the defender in position to apply the guard but only IF the shooter just "lays there" after he gets the guy down.
Don't know many that do that, they typically control the legs and move in for side control or whatnot.

yep flair the legs out to side control is the standard tech as you say, and range is crucial again as you say (if only the wing chun forum was this civil!)

[MightyB]

I prefer the low single leg take down.

This vid kind've demonstrates the basics of it, but if it's started close, set up properly, and executed fast, it's more of a leverage throw than the double and IMO is easier to execute and requires less strength.

[YouKnowWho]

Originally Posted by Frost

The reason I started this thread was because of this misinformed view of the double.. There have been 2 or at most 3 cases or a Brocken neck due to the double leg in the last 15 years, and these have been due to how you land NOT your opponent pushing your head backwards, this has never happened as far as I am aware, if you can site sources ill gladly read them, otherwise please keep the fantasy stuff to the wing chun forum

Fantasy? That word doesn't exist in my dictionary. I have tried to bring others from the fantasy world back into the real world. The only thing that I believe is whether you can knock/throw me down or the other way around. I'm not the person who believe in any "snake engine", 6DFV, or the "spiritual world". The world that I'm living in can't be any more "real".

If both of your hands can push on your opponent's forehead, one of your fists will be able to hit on his face which will give you better result in MMA rullset. You run your head into your opponent's pushing hands. Same as you run into your opponent's punch/kick. It happens all the time in combat.

The "速(Su) – forehead push" principle had been used in the Chinese wrestling for over thousands years (where punch is not permitted in that sport). It's the #10 basic drills among the ancient 24 basic drills.

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/4...reheadpush.jpg

[Frost]

Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

Fantasy? That word doesn't exist in my dictionary. I have tried to bring others from the fantasy world back into the real world. The only thing that I believe is whether you can knock/throw me down or the other way around. I'm not the person who believe in any "snake engine", 6DFV, or the "spiritual world". The world that I'm living in can't be any more "real".

If both of your hands can push on your opponent's forehead, one of your fists will be able to hit on his face which will give you better result in MMA rullset. You run your head into your opponent's pushing hands. Same as you run into your opponent's punch/kick. It happens all the time in combat.

The "速(Su) – forehead push" principle had been used in the Chinese wrestling for over thousands years (where punch is not permitted in that sport). It's the #10 basic drills among the ancient 24 basic drills.

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/4...reheadpush.jpg

please show me one example of a neck being snapped whilst shooting a double leg simply by the defender pushing their head backwards...that is what i said was fantasy ...whilst you are at it please show one example of the head being pushed back with one hand and hit with the other hand whilst shooting a double.....

[YouKnowWho]

Originally Posted by Frost

please show me one example of a neck being snapped whilst shooting a double leg simply by the defender pushing their head backwards...that is what i said was fantasy ...whilst you are at it please show one example of the head being pushed back with one hand and hit with the other hand whilst shooting a double.....

Thing that have not happened doesn't mean that it won't happen.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

Thing that have not happened doesn't mean that it won't happen.

true water might start running up hill soon, i mean its not happened yet but you never know....

well lets see, close to a century of competitive shots in both wrestling and MMA, no one has yet had this happen to them, its that’s not good enough for you them lord knows what is