Secret true Wing Chun...

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=lance;1169785] Look at Sifu Augustine Fong he makes WC work for him , he participates in kung fu tournaments when ever there is a tournament . His favorite technique chi sao . Other than that Joy I
don ' t want to put you in the spot but you would know about your sigung more than me , is your sigung fong really that good ? Because you trained under him yourself .
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Fong is my sifu not my sigung.
What can I say.His understanding of wing chun is as good as it gets. And I have met with quite a few of Ip man's top students...plus from the next generation as well. And in his time he has fought as well.
He learned from Ho Kam Ming who spent as much training time with Ip man as anyone and (Ho)regularly did chi sao with Ip man himself.And has produced good fighters. And Fong sifu keeps on evolving.
Many of his students have fought- not just practiced with other WC people. I have top quality si hings and top quality regular practicing brothers. I am not referring to the occasional students.
One of the things that attracted me to wing chun is to put the fighting that I had done in perspective. Why something works and how to make those things even better. And I still work out with people testing wc against things that are not wc. WC is a gateway not the only one- but a very unique one.
I have tested things in order to know of their effectiveness-not for the popcorn and peanut gallery but for myself.One ultimately takes care of one self.(Self defense)
As I have said before there are many ways to fight.Each fight is an unique event.

Lots of people who learn wing chun IMO have had poor instruction and many would be better off doing something else that they understand better.

I agree and disagree with Sanjuro on fighting.Of course theory is not enough- one needs to know what works. But fighting involves unique events- each one has unique details. Reverse engineering from fighting is not enough. Top quality boxers, grapple-rs etc also have had good coaching.

Answering your question-trying not to rant.

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree and disagree with Sanjuro on fighting.Of course theory is not enough- one needs to know what works. But fighting involves unique events- each one has unique details. Reverse engineering from fighting is not enough. Top quality boxers, grapple-rs etc also have had good coaching.

Oh I agree Joy, 100%.
All the fighting in the world can't help you if you don't understand what is going on, why what worked and what didn't.
You need a good coach to help you fill in those pieces ( a coach that has been there and done that too of course).
Many times you (as a student) MAY be able to get away with less testing because you have a coach that HAS tested and tested a lot.
BUT just because what he does works for HIM is no guarantee that it will work for you.
The coaching element is crucial for sure.

[LoneTiger108]

Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin

WC is NOT a junk art,it is an excellent art.
It just has to be trained like any other FIGHTING system.
None of this silly "no fighting till you are good enough", or none of this pointless "too deadly" crap and none of this "you can't compete" crap.
WC is NOT inferior to any of the styles that can and do fight and win.
Alan Orr has shown that.
WC is not inferior to boxing or MT or any other system in which its practioner fight as soon as they are willing to.
Anytime I hear some WC "master" suggest that it takes YEARS to be able to use WC in a fight it makes me cringe because that person just openly admitted that WC is INFERIOR to any other system in which a practitioner can fight in LESS time.

All kudos to you for saying what you think about Wing Chun but remind me again who you learnt from and if you teach Wing Chun?

In other words, what experience have you had taking Wing Chun students to this level of competition? What sparring champions of Wing Chun have you coached?

I only asked, because I have always been under the impression that you were not a Wing Chun student, yet here you are telling us all what it's supposed to be about! Not that I have an issue with that coz some/most of what you say is spot on, but I'm just wondering.

And on the Wing Chun Competition note and why I think it will never happen? That's a whole other thread...

[Vajramusti]

Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin

Oh I agree Joy, 100%.
All the fighting in the world can't help you if you don't understand what is going on, why what worked and what didn't.
You need a good coach to help you fill in those pieces ( a coach that has been there and done that too of course).
Many times you (as a student) MAY be able to get away with less testing because you have a coach that HAS tested and tested a lot.
BUT just because what he does works for HIM is no guarantee that it will work for you.
The coaching element is crucial for sure.

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Agree:A coach or sifu cannot fight for you(universal you) and name dropping from your line does not do it either.

joy

[LoneTiger108]

Originally Posted by Vajramusti

--------------------------------
Agree:A coach or sifu cannot fight for you(universal you) and name dropping from your line does not do it either.

joy

I see what you're saying here Joy. And I will try and take on that little gem of advice.

[CFT]

You could say it was name dropping, but Spencer is using a specific name to illustrate his point that his (his lineage's) training methods work. Mr Cheng's reputation precedes him.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Originally Posted by LoneTiger108

All kudos to you for saying what you think about Wing Chun but remind me again who you learnt from and if you teach Wing Chun?

In other words, what experience have you had taking Wing Chun students to this level of competition? What sparring champions of Wing Chun have you coached?

I only asked, because I have always been under the impression that you were not a Wing Chun student, yet here you are telling us all what it's supposed to be about! Not that I have an issue with that coz some/most of what you say is spot on, but I'm just wondering.

And on the Wing Chun Competition note and why I think it will never happen? That's a whole other thread...

Moy Yat WC under Nelson Chan and Sunny Tang.
I have NOT coached anyone in WC, nor would I and I do NOT teach WC nor would I.
My advice is for MA in general an din this case, WC in particular.
If my advice makes sense because it is CORRECT then who I learned from and even how good I am is irrelevant, unless you subscribe to the "argument from authority", do you?
I give advice NOT based on being a WC person ( fighter or teacher or current practioner), I give advice based on over 30 years of doing MA AND FIGHTING with MA and VS other MA ( many of them WC practioenrs).
It is advice based on experience and advice based on personal knowledge and I never claim it to be any more or any less than that.

Take the advice for what it is or ignore it, it's a free world.

[LoneTiger108]

Originally Posted by CFT

You could say it was name dropping, but Spencer is using a specific name to illustrate his point that his (his lineage's) training methods work. Mr Cheng's reputation precedes him.

Thanks Chee. I thought I was simply highlighting how long ago actually some of my lineage already mixed it up with many other leading Martial Artists of the time.

[wingchunIan]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1169798]Actually it's not and creates horrific habits and while it CAN be a tool for the very novice, it should be discarded as soon as the novice has gotten over his "fear" of getting hit.

Need I point out all the very effective combat systems that do NOT use them?

such as? and don't say boxing, MT or MMA because they all have two man drills its just one happens to holding a pair of focus mitts and we call him a pad man

Need I point out that in an actual fight NOTHING like what happens in a pre-arranged routine ever happens?

Actually everything that happens in a fight can be replicated in a two man drill. If you do the exercises with a closed mind and think only that the real fight will be exactly as it is in the prearranged version then you are correct there is no transfer unless you happen to be attacked by a very obliging opponent. If however you accept the two man routines for what they are, and learn the lessons that they are intended to teach / practise the skills and reactions that they are intended to sharpen with an open mind then they are invaluable exercises.

[wingchunIan]

Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin

WC is NOT a junk art,it is an excellent art.
It just has to be trained like any other FIGHTING system.
None of this silly "no fighting till you are good enough", or none of this pointless "too deadly" crap and none of this "you can't compete" crap.
WC is NOT inferior to any of the styles that can and do fight and win.
Alan Orr has shown that.
WC is not inferior to boxing or MT or any other system in which its practioner fight as soon as they are willing to.
Anytime I hear some WC "master" suggest that it takes YEARS to be able to use WC in a fight it makes me cringe because that person just openly admitted that WC is INFERIOR to any other system in which a practitioner can fight in LESS time.

Anybody can fight the minute they walk through the door, but will they use Wing Chun? People grow up watching boxing (both as a sport and in films) and grabbing hold of people is a natural fighting instinct so sticking two totally untrained people in a ring / cage will give you a fight that given the right rules can be passed off as boxing or mma. Because I love martial arts and contact sports I will watch anything and the amount of novice and intermediate level fights I've seen in rings and cages where the fighters couldn't show any skill in their claimed sport / art and just wailed around hoping to catch the opponent before they get caught themselves is endless. It teaches people nothing and only serves to provide a spectacle for those outside the ring.
Developing Wing Chun skills takes time, the level of those skills needed to fight depends upon the opponent and the size of the practitioner. Does it make an art inferior because it takes longer to be proficient, if the skills learned can then be used to overcome physical limitations and remain effective long into old age while the more quickly learned skills fade with physical prowess and age?

[Vajramusti]

Originally Posted by CFT

You could say it was name dropping, but Spencer is using a specific name to illustrate his point that his (his lineage's) training methods work. Mr Cheng's reputation precedes him.

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Understood.

joy

[Wayfaring]

Originally Posted by wingchunIan

Anybody can fight the minute they walk through the door, but will they use Wing Chun? People grow up watching boxing (both as a sport and in films) and grabbing hold of people is a natural fighting instinct so sticking two totally untrained people in a ring / cage will give you a fight that given the right rules can be passed off as boxing or mma. Because I love martial arts and contact sports I will watch anything and the amount of novice and intermediate level fights I've seen in rings and cages where the fighters couldn't show any skill in their claimed sport / art and just wailed around hoping to catch the opponent before they get caught themselves is endless. It teaches people nothing and only serves to provide a spectacle for those outside the ring.
Developing Wing Chun skills takes time, the level of those skills needed to fight depends upon the opponent and the size of the practitioner. Does it make an art inferior because it takes longer to be proficient, if the skills learned can then be used to overcome physical limitations and remain effective long into old age while the more quickly learned skills fade with physical prowess and age?

I don't know - sometimes with this whole discussion I think we need to put some classifications of people up to break things down adequately. Groups like:

1) Pro Fighters - want to make a living fighting
2) Amateur Fighters/Competitors - aspiring pro or skilled hobbyist
3) Sifus - want to make a living teaching or coaching
4) Aspiring Sifus - same but not at that level yet
5) Hobbyist - those studying martial arts outside of work for purposes of health and fitness, self-defense, other esoteric reasons.

Now yes, sparring and fighting can help increase the goals of all 5 groups of people. But all are not the same, do not have the same amount of time and resources to build skill levels.

On this forum, the vast majority of posters are hobbyists. There are some forays into people being in the #2 category - amateur fighters/competitors, but mostly people on this forum do not compete. There are also a number of #3 and #4's - sifus / aspiring sifus. In wing chun in general there seems to be more of the aspiring sifu group than anything else. Small class sizes, high theory, lineage and culture basis. I would classify almost all on this forum in the #4 +#5 combination - as making a living and teaching or trying to teach. There's nothing wrong with that, and many well-known sifus are in that category of #3 +#5 - etc.

Why is this important to highlight, especially when discussing fighting skills? Well, each group has different goals and resource availability. All groups want to develop and/or teach fighting skills - that's the same. The pro fighters are working 2-3x / day on developing skill and conditioning. Amateurs - 1-2x / day. The rest vary - sifus probably work in the 1x - 2x / day range - aspiring and hobbyists - less - maybe 2-3x / wk.

As a result, each group needs to have a little bit different goals they want to develop from fighting as well as a healthy respect towards what is available to develop. Human nature being what it is, typically the #3 and #4's like to tend to gravitate towards working in smaller groups where they can be the big fish in the small pond.

So what are realistic goals regarding fighting skills with the different groups?

#1 - Titles, belts, fight record, $$$, etc.
#2 - Titles, belts, fight record, trophies, medals, etc.
#3 - Students in #1,#2 category - acclaim, skill (how measured?), $$$, profession
#4 - Good small group of students to grow into #3
#5 - Self-defense confidence, conditioning, stress-relief, health, successful measurement against other groups.

With this there really has to be a realistic outlook developed as to what people are striving for. Delusion would tell you that although you're in the #5 category, because of "secret true WCK" you could easily defeat someone in the #1 category like Anderson Silva or GSP at the top. We should avoid delusion - it's not healthy. Of course that's not glamorous. I mean even in the movies the Ip Man movie was all about a #3 category sifu (Ip Man) fighting a #1 category pro boxer.

So what should we do as WCK practitioners that are in the #4 and #5 categories as far as fighting skills? IMO the first step is to develop being comfortable in fighting scenarios. For hobbyists this absolutely is going to involve protective gear, drills to restrict movement, short time periods (3 min max live sparring), and good oversight. Hobbyists need to learn to be comfortable and controlled in a live environment. This will not only help in self-defense situations where there are similar aspects to a live sparring environment, but also will prepare the hobbyist for being able to work with some of the higher level groups.

People with no experience sparring who get in there with a self-defence type attitude are the most dangerous. Adrenaline levels push them to go all out with less control. If they are sparring with a #1/#2 category athlete then it's almost like the athlete needs to hurt the hobbyist to stay protected from injury. That is not a good scenario all around. It's better to develop comfortability and control so that all different groups can work together and obtain benefit from it.

The biggest problem I see with WCK people is the #4/#5 category with the big fish in the little pond syndrome. To get beyond that you are going to have to get outside your own little group and get some interaction with #1/#2 category people. The suggestions or keys I have for this is 1) Be polite and friendly 2) Be in control (have your guys get some experience with free movement fighting) 3) Develop some cross-school/club relationships to foster that kind of training scenario.

To me that is the secret of true WCK and that secret remains the same for all types of martial arts - the training paradigm. How you train = your future.

[Wayfaring]

Originally Posted by LoneTiger108

In other words, what experience have you had taking Wing Chun students to this level of competition? What sparring champions of Wing Chun have you coached?

What is a "sparring champion of Wing Chun"?

Other than the sporadic and various "chi sau competitions" which IMO are sanda with a fixed start point, what competitions are you talking about?

[Frost]

Originally Posted by wingchunIan

Anybody can fight the minute they walk through the door, but will they use Wing Chun? People grow up watching boxing (both as a sport and in films) and grabbing hold of people is a natural fighting instinct so sticking two totally untrained people in a ring / cage will give you a fight that given the right rules can be passed off as boxing or mma. Because I love martial arts and contact sports I will watch anything and the amount of novice and intermediate level fights I've seen in rings and cages where the fighters couldn't show any skill in their claimed sport / art and just wailed around hoping to catch the opponent before they get caught themselves is endless. It teaches people nothing and only serves to provide a spectacle for those outside the ring.
Developing Wing Chun skills takes time, the level of those skills needed to fight depends upon the opponent and the size of the practitioner. Does it make an art inferior because it takes longer to be proficient, if the skills learned can then be used to overcome physical limitations and remain effective long into old age while the more quickly learned skills fade with physical prowess and age?

lol i love it when people who have not competed or who dont train with guys that compete on a regular basis pass judgement on how skill full they look when fighting full contact, if you tried it the first time you stepped in the cage you might be amazed on how bad you can look when the other guy is trying to take your head off and not holding back

and your second point has me confused i thought the whole idea behind wing chun was its a streamlined fighting system that doesnt take long to become good at?

Finally as for the whole "the skills take longer to learn but stay with you into old age" arguement it simply doesnt make sense:
if a young skilled fighter cant make something work, are we really to believe an older slower person will make them work...of course no one can actually point to any examples of this but the myth still persists

[wingchunIan]

[QUOTE=Frost;1169859]

lol i love it when people who have not competed or who dont train with guys that compete on a regular basis pass judgement on how skill full they look when fighting full contact, if you tried it the first time you stepped in the cage you might be amazed on how bad you can look when the other guy is trying to take your head off and not holding back

Actually I trained MT for many years and had enough fights in the ring to know exactly what its like to fight in front of crowds with a man in front of you trying to take your head off. Was I a champion? no far from it (very far from it in fact I lost more than I won) but I was fortunate enough to have a trainer who believed in technical competence before entering fighters into matches unlike many others who seem to think that two out of condition guys swinging wildly at each other in a vain hope of hitting the other is good sport.

and your second point has me confused i thought the whole idea behind wing chun was its a streamlined fighting system that doesnt take long to become good at?

WC is easy to become proficient in to a level that can be useful against your average Joe Bloggs but If you've ever taught anyone WC then you would know that the punching method is not natural to most people and most folks can hit a pad far harder if they try to immitate boxing strikes than WC strikes when they walk in fresh off the street. The tendancy to over commit and tense up is something that needs to be overcome to be able to fight effectively with WC whithout resorting to slugging it out.

Finally as for the whole "the skills take longer to learn but stay with you into old age" arguement it simply doesnt make sense:
if a young skilled fighter cant make something work, are we really to believe an older slower person will make them work...of course no one can actually point to any examples of this but the myth still persists

Nope not a myth. I am now approaching 40. I hit far harder now than when I started WC despite being over a decade younger and being fresh from MT. I also have far better footwork, I'm faster and my all round WC is improving day by day. I am measurably better now than I was 6 months ago. If your only reality is that as you get older you get worse then I feel for you. I know guys in HK in their 60s and 70s who regularly amaze me with their prowess.