When Did Chi Sao Start?

[Happy Tiger]

When was chi sao introduced \invented? Did VT come out of the temple already equipped with this unique tool, or was it added\developed later? Is there any story behind that?In it's day it must have been revolutionary. Tai chi is the only other art I know of that might have been rubbing elbows with the VT gang as an influence with it's tui sao. Is this an inspiration for chi sao?

[mjw]

My guess is that chi sao came from tai chi as a more linear approach and more focus on striking than uprooting but who knows.....

[Sihing73]

Someone correct me if I am wrong but I heard that Yip Man and Yuen Kay developed the poon sau platform.

Also, there are several other arts which have sensitivity training, Hsing Yi, Bagua, Tai Chi and perhaps Praying Mantis as well as several FMA and IMA's.

When I first started Wing Chun I was under the impression that Chi Sau was unique to Wing Chun but was mistaken.

[Happy Tiger]

Originally Posted by Sihing73

Someone correct me if I am wrong but I heard that Yip Man and Yuen Kay developed the poon sau platform.

Also, there are several other arts which have sensitivity training, Hsing Yi, Bagua, Tai Chi and perhaps Praying Mantis as well as several FMA and IMA's.

When I first started Wing Chun I was under the impression that Chi Sau was unique to Wing Chun but was mistaken.

Wow. I knew those arts had sensitivity drills and passes but didn't realise they had open ended exchange such the likes of Chi sao. So chi sao really is that recent. Thanks for the replies.

[LoneTiger108]

Originally Posted by Happy Tiger

When was chi sao introduced \invented?

If you are talking of the term Chisau and the stuff we see today, I believe it was first introduced by Ip Man after working with numerous elders. So it's invention would be during his HK years.

Originally Posted by Happy Tiger

Did VT come out of the temple already equipped with this unique tool, or was it added\developed later?

Chinese Martial Arts has always had interactive platforms, so I reckon it has been there for a time before Shaolin actually. Different interactive exercises produce different results, have different purposes, and Ip Man may have only 're-discovered' what was already there.

Originally Posted by Happy Tiger

Is there any story behind that?In it's day it must have been revolutionary.

I have heard numerous 'stories' as have all of us lol!! Nothing can be proven (they say) but I tend to look at the Red Boat because this is where the interactive nature of Wing Chun went through a massive development phase because the performances always needed to be fresh and new and the Martial Arts more realistic and entertaining. Hence, the choreography was more refined.

Depending on your 'belief' but IF Wing Chun and her husband existed, it seems more probable that they themselves must have had the time to develop this sort of interactive platform too. Or maybe the stories are highlighting the nature of Man & Woman, Yin and Yang influences on the Martial Arts of the time?

Originally Posted by Happy Tiger

Tai chi is the only other art I know of that might have been rubbing elbows with the VT gang as an influence with it's tui sao. Is this an inspiration for chi sao?

Possibly. It's all about 'purpose' at the end of the day. To enable a fusion of two people to cultivate energies and exchange their strengths was possibly the reason for this sort of practise. But as a tool to try-out and experiment with the variety of actual combat?? This seems to be more of a Wing Chun thing.

What will really get your boat is that Chisau is a term for a specific purpose, as is Looksau or Poonsau etc. We have been eager to lump all our interactive exercises into this 'Chisau' mould, but in all honesty I don't believe for one second that Ip Man didn't have a plan in mind to develop this stuff further. It's just that he was taken from us all before this could happen...

[Happy Tiger]

Originally Posted by LoneTiger108

If you are talking of the term Chisau and the stuff we see today, I believe it was first introduced by Ip Man after working with numerous elders. So it's invention would be during his HK years.



Chinese Martial Arts has always had interactive platforms, so I reckon it has been there for a time before Shaolin actually. Different interactive exercises produce different results, have different purposes, and Ip Man may have only 're-discovered' what was already there.



I have heard numerous 'stories' as have all of us lol!! Nothing can be proven (they say) but I tend to look at the Red Boat because this is where the interactive nature of Wing Chun went through a massive development phase because the performances always needed to be fresh and new and the Martial Arts more realistic and entertaining. Hence, the choreography was more refined.

Depending on your 'belief' but IF Wing Chun and her husband existed, it seems more probable that they themselves must have had the time to develop this sort of interactive platform too. Or maybe the stories are highlighting the nature of Man & Woman, Yin and Yang influences on the Martial Arts of the time?



Possibly. It's all about 'purpose' at the end of the day. To enable a fusion of two people to cultivate energies and exchange their strengths was possibly the reason for this sort of practise. But as a tool to try-out and experiment with the variety of actual combat?? This seems to be more of a Wing Chun thing.

What will really get your boat is that Chisau is a term for a specific purpose, as is Looksau or Poonsau etc. We have been eager to lump all our interactive exercises into this 'Chisau' mould, but in all honesty I don't believe for one second that Ip Man didn't have a plan in mind to develop this stuff further. It's just that he was taken from us all before this could happen...

Nice response! The level of interaction potential in VT chi sao is huge compared to other types of sensitivity drills and sets, many of which are subsets to our chi sao. The bridge between pure live 'anything goes' sparring and sensitivity training is amazing. I guess knowing what you want out of a chi sao session helps alot. What I love is the free will 'interdependancy' of chi sao. I also like what it tells about a houses feel, it's aproach to VT and it's root.It is a very nice merging of our principles and methods. I like what you said about it still being a work in progress in GM Ip Mans time...and I suppose it still is today....Man, I love VT Thanks again for the informative post. >bows deeply<

[LoneTiger108]

Originally Posted by Happy Tiger

....Man, I love VT Thanks again for the informative post. >bows deeply<

You're very welcome. And I didn't offend you with any condescending tones?!!

[Happy Tiger]

Originally Posted by LoneTiger108

You're very welcome. And I didn't offend you with any condescending tones?!!

Nope, I'm just a student. Besides, where would this forum be without condescending tones?

[Vajramusti]

Originally Posted by mjw

My guess is that chi sao came from tai chi as a more linear approach and more focus on striking than uprooting but who knows.....

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I don't think so. Beware of pseudo history.Ip Man did much for the development of wing chun chi sao
and different kinds of chi sao,
but the idea of manipulating contact is as old as the hills. Leung Jan also had his approach to chi sao.
So did Chan Wah Sun.

joy chaudhuri

[Happy Tiger]

Originally Posted by Vajramusti

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I don't think so. Beware of pseudo history.Ip Man did much for the development of wing chun chi sao
and different kinds of chi sao,
but the idea of manipulating contact is as old as the hills. Leung Jan also had his approach to chi sao.
So did Chan Wah Sun.

joy chaudhuri

So what would have been the approach to these proto chi sao expressions? Where did the inclusion of drawing feinting, stalling, half beat,broken beat.jamming, jao sao risk come to be? Sensitivity platforms have been around and are common. Hapkido also has flow drills and lock flow sensitivity exchange but not like VT.

[Vajramusti]

Originally Posted by Happy Tiger

So what would have been the approach to these proto chi sao expressions? Where did the inclusion of drawing feinting, stalling, half beat,broken beat.jamming, jao sao risk come to be? Sensitivity platforms have been around and are common. Hapkido also has flow drills and lock flow sensitivity exchange but not like VT.

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Rather than bong. tan.fook- more circling around the bridge clock wise and anti clockwise.
Also see some gu lo wing chun.

No comment on Hapkido- because of lack of interest.Perhaps someone else can comment.

joy chaudhuri

[Happy Tiger]

Originally Posted by Vajramusti

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No comment on Hapkido- because of lack of interest.Perhaps someone else can comment.

joy chaudhuri

ouch! that's too bad. Well, you can't be interested in every thing.

[Happy Tiger]

Originally Posted by Vajramusti

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Also see some gu lo wing chun.

joy chaudhuri

interesting

[Yoshiyahu]

White Crane lineage have chi sau drills as well as Praying mantis and some eagle claw lineages.

Basically chi sau is bridge that teaches you in a non-threathen way how to utilize the techniques before gradutating to sparring.

It develops sensitivity in techniques so that you can feel with your hands oppose to seeing with your eyes...Most close range styles will have some form of chi sau to develop your tools you grasp from the forms and drills.

[Happy Tiger]

Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu

White Crane lineage have chi sau drills as well as Praying mantis and some eagle claw lineages.

Basically chi sau is bridge that teaches you in a non-threathen way how to utilize the techniques before gradutating to sparring.

It develops sensitivity in techniques so that you can feel with your hands oppose to seeing with your eyes...Most close range styles will have some form of chi sau to develop your tools you grasp from the forms and drills.

thank you Yoshiyahu. As you point out, those are 'drills' as I also mentioned. They, although alowing some freestyle, are predominantly prearanged organized subsets,Like Lop Sao/ Bong Sao say.If there are VT type sensitivity/ exchange methods in these other arts, I'm looking for examples on the Tube. Please tune me in if you know of any. VT chi sao has a basically open ended format that alows for another level of humanity, instinct, nowness and X factor in the mix. I guess this is the dimension I'm interested in most. I'ts like a life form that just jumped from one level of awareness to another. It is this jump I am geeking out over.
I Kuen, Tai Gik and Ving Tsun are the most advanced in this I've experienced but I ain't experienced much