Fanche

[mooyingmantis]

Originally Posted by Tainan Mantis

Where is 'one elbow shields half the body'?
It is on 3rd zhai yao.

What other form?
None that I know of. How do you determine that it is in Xiao Fanche 2nd rd? Which family teaches it this way?

Yes, there is move in Xiao Fanche that looks like 'one elbow shields half the body' but who says that it is the same (I mean besides you?)?

Zhai Yao forms are clearly recorded from the era of their creation, but I have never seen or heard that there is a Xiao Fanche manuscript that clearly was written in the era of its creation.

Wow! Was that attitude really necessary?

Every family that has Xiao Fanche has the movement with hopping. Perhaps it is not called by the same name, since different families use different names for the same technique.

In the Mimen Tanglangquan of Su Yu Zhang the movement in Xiao Fanche is interpreted as a wrist grab and descending elbow break.

Thank you for offering a different or more accurate explanation!

[Tainan Mantis]

Originally Posted by mooyingmantis

Wow! Was that attitude really necessary?

forum is an attitude free zone for me,

[Tainan Mantis]

Originally Posted by mooyingmantis

In the Mimen Tanglangquan of Su Yu Zhang the movement in Xiao Fanche is interpreted as a wrist grab and descending elbow break.

Zhang Dekui did not teach Xiao Fanche. Su Yuzhang's Xiao Fanche is from Eight Step. He learned from Wei Xiaotang. The Wutan schools in Taiwan all teach it at their university clubs. Every night when they have class you can see them training and teaching to the freshman, either Lipi or Xiao Fanche.

[mooyingmantis]

Originally Posted by Tainan Mantis

Zhang Dekui did not teach Xiao Fanche. Su Yuzhang's Xiao Fanche is from Eight Step. He learned from Wei Xiaotang. The Wutan schools in Taiwan all teach it at their university clubs. Every night when they have class you can see them training and teaching to the freshman, either Lipi or Xiao Fanche.

OK, in the Babu Tanglangquan of Su Yu Zhang the movement in Xiao Fanche is interpreted as a wrist grab and descending elbow break.

[mooyingmantis]

In the Qixing Tanglangquan version of Dafanche we have the move:

撇 捶 右 單 鞭 - piē chuí yòu dān biān - Casting Strike, Right Single Whip

Tonight I touched on one strategy of this move in class. Though I may be "preaching to the choir", I thought someone might benefit from my explanation.

The casting strike is a long arm, outward swinging back-fist type motion. It is followed by a long range, inward swinging hook strike.

I explained to my students that the initial strike, if done as in the form, is a very easy to anticipate attack. I believe that this intentionally inspires (叫 - jiào - provoke) the opponent to extend his left arm to block and create an opening. The left casting strike converts to a grab (粘 - zhān - paste). The right leg steps in contacting and pressing against the opponent's left leg (貼 - tiē - lean), while the right hook punch strikes the opponent in the head. Alternately, the right forearm can contact the opponent's neck to uproot.

In this situation, the casting strike is a misdirection (虛 - xū - false), while the single whip is the intended strike (實 - shí - real).

Note: I often use the quanpu of Master Wong Hon Fan because it is very clear and concise. Yet, that does not mean his descendants will all necessarily agree with the interpretation.

[xiao yao]

Sorry, I havent learnt zhai yao third road, so I was just going by richards description and thought it sounded similar

master zhou said that zhai yao 3 contains several fan che techniques, which im curious as to how, as zhai yao is older than fan che in mantis

[mooyingmantis]

Originally Posted by xiao yao

Sorry, I havent learnt zhai yao third road, so I was just going by richards description and thought it sounded similar

master zhou said that zhai yao 3 contains several fan che techniques, which im curious as to how, as zhai yao is older than fan che in mantis

Then, when you consider that the Lulu technique (found in Dafanche, Xiaofanche and Meihua Lu) is also found in Zhai Yao Wu Lu movement twenty-three it gets curiouser and curiouser.

[Michael Dasargo]

Originally Posted by mooyingmantis

OK, in the Babu Tanglangquan of Su Yu Zhang the movement in Xiao Fanche is interpreted as a wrist grab and descending elbow break.

Not sure if you're referring to the jump and chop, but per Zhang Jia Chang, the application is jumping over sweeps and chopping down on the neck.

M.

[mooyingmantis]

Mike,

That was exactly what I was referring to. Thank you for the informed response!

Who is Zhang Jia Chang? To which family of mantis does he belong?

[Michael Dasargo]

for surrrrrrre (steve carrel voice)

Zhang "John" Chang Babu TangLang

Mike D.

[mooyingmantis]

Originally Posted by Michael Dasargo

for surrrrrrre (steve carrel voice)

Zhang "John" Chang Babu TangLang

Mike D.

Thanks Mike!

In the WHF quanpu for Xiaofanche the three hops with strikes (movements 16-18) are referred to as:

Leaping Jump, Piercing Splitting Strike
zong tiao chuan pi chui
Leaping Jump, Hang Splitting Strike
zong tiao gua pi chui
Leaping Jump, Slant Drawing Strike
zong tiao xie chou chui

They can be seen here at 00:10 - 00:13:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us1th...87EE1CED65CAAB

[mantis108]

Originally Posted by Tainan Mantis

Here are some Xiao Fanche clips to compare.

Here is one of the versions (of three) that my Teacher Shi Zhengzhong learned from a man who studied with Zhao Zhuxi BEFORE he taught in Vietnam.

CCK Taichi mantis xiao Fan che

That odd jumping chop in the 2nd rd is what you are calling one elbow sheilds half the body?

Wang Chieh Laoshi: Xiao Fan Che Quan, Babu Tang Lang

Wang Jie, student of Wei Xiaotang does the same form, though this video is very unclear, you can see that around :38 they jump and chop. Just like in the Taiji Mantis version from Zhao Zhuxi. Think about the degrees of seperation between those two lineages of Mantis, this is the ONLY form they have in common (you can check me on that fact) and yet, I know for a fact that they both do this form in a very similar fashion. Mostly some stylistic differences, but the moves are, under that style, mostly the same.

In other words, NO One Elbow Shields half the Body.

Hi Kevin,

I believe GM Chiu taught Xiao Fanche in Macau and Vietnam but not in HK. I also believe that our version is missing Luo Bu Fan Che and Shang Bu Lu Lu - 2 moves.

BTW, I recently learned this set and the 12 Old Men form from a student of Kwang Kwan Wei. According to this Sihing, there is no Luo Bu Fan Che and Shang Bu Lu Lu in our Fanche form. But I have try doing the form with these two moves in it and it seems to me that it feels better including these two moves. Just thought you might be interested to know.

Warmest regard

Robert

[Tainan Mantis]

I also learned a version of fan che where the lulu was in place and very short. Very unlike the other versions. So, maybe a different way of doing the moves.

[mooyingmantis]

In Zhang Bingdou's book on Taiji Meihua Tanglangquan (shang), he describes the lulu technique found in Essentials #5 movement twenty-three.

Here is my paraphrase:

轆 轆 捶 - lù lù chuí - Lulu Strike

As the enemy raises a foot, I turn to the outside and suspend his foot,
As the enemy extends a hand, I turn to the outside and suspend his hand.
If enemy's hand and foot are not extended, I strike his upper and lower areas.

Lulu in this instance is a clockwise rotation of the outstretched right arm that emphasizes the rotation of the arm by means of the shoulder's ball and socket joint.

In Master Zhang's book, there are two rotations of the right arm coupled with two steps.

Each steps begins with the left foot crossing behind the right foot (扭 步 - niǔ bù - Twist Step) to advance toward the enemy. Each step ends with the right foot advancing forward toward the enemy.

As Master Zhang explains, the movement can be used defensively to block/strike/lift the enemy's foot or arm. As an offensive movement, the upward rotation can be used to strike the back of the enemy's head and the downward swing can be used to swing into the enemy's groin.

[mooyingmantis]

Essentials #5 movement twenty-four:

回 身 翻 車 - huí shēn fān chē - Turn Body Fanche

Pivot 180 degrees and strike downward with the left fist to strike down the opponent's guard or attack the head. Then step the right foot forward and chop downward to the opponent's head with the right fist.