WC is totally effective, if you let it to be.

[k gledhill]

Originally Posted by Wayfaring

I completely disagree. Look at what the functional or combat arts are doing for comparison. You see people walking in off the street with zero training, and within one year be able to effectively compete in an amateur MMA match complete with striking and grappling. And the one year of training is from the more conservative or better schools. Many fly-by-night schools will go with the trial-by-fire method of putting someone in a fight within three months.

If you wait 3 years before any sparring in wing chun, in comparison that aligns with a MMA fighter having around 6 or 7 amateur fights, and being almost ready to turn pro. Starting to spar then is going to put someone so far behind it will be next to impossible to catch up.

I think there should be sparring from day one in training. There are plenty of ways to control that to help provide exposure to noobs without detrimental effects.

Or I guess the alternative is to stop promoting rhetoric around building fighting skill, and just accept the inevitable conclusion of building standard businessmen into paper mache tigers.

Agree, crazy to teach a fluid mobile fighting method by not addressing real speeds of action, balanced movement under pressure...

[Ali. R]

Originally Posted by Wayfaring

I completely disagree. Look at what the functional or combat arts are doing for comparison. You see people walking in off the street with zero training, and within one year be able to effectively compete in an amateur MMA match complete with striking and grappling. And the one year of training is from the more conservative or better schools. Many fly-by-night schools will go with the trial-by-fire method of putting someone in a fight within three months.

If you wait 3 years before any sparring in wing chun, in comparison that aligns with a MMA fighter having around 6 or 7 amateur fights, and being almost ready to turn pro. Starting to spar then is going to put someone so far behind it will be next to impossible to catch up.

I think there should be sparring from day one in training. There are plenty of ways to control that to help provide exposure to noobs without detrimental effects.

Or I guess the alternative is to stop promoting rhetoric around building fighting skill, and just accept the inevitable conclusion of building standard businessmen into paper mache tigers.

It’s good to disagree, it keeps the mind flowing and sometimes help those who can see what others can’t.

You are dealing with energies/mind set unlike boxing, grappling, and so on… Right from the time when you were a little child you can recognize most of the moves and concepts from boxing, grappling, and many other physical ideas when it comes to fighting and sports.

But if you haven’t develop a good relationship with concepts that you never seen or heard of before, when sparring you’ll only go right back to what’s natural within your muscle memory, and without the right mentality you’ll never get started in learning anything.

Hence, throwing your art right out of the window while sparring prematurely, and will still try to claim it as an authentic demonstration of what you’ve studied, when it’s clear that there is no development, mentally and physically. Wing Chun or kung fu is not MMA.

If someone walks the streets wondering when and if he or she will have a fight, then they need to move away from that area or grow up. If you want to be able to defend yourself on a pro level using kung fu; within one year of training, I suggest learn to do this and get good at it, or take MMA.

http://youtu.be/m_vZ90qpvxo

Ali

[Ali. R]

Originally Posted by k gledhill

Agree, crazy to teach a fluid mobile fighting method by not addressing real speeds of action, balanced movement under pressure...

Oh it’s taught, but in the right time of development, and not because one may think he’s ready to fight, but his training will dictate the next level, if one is true to himself.

Ali.

[Phil Redmond]

Wing Chun was developed to fight the Manchu as quick as possible. It is a martial art so it's about the fighting. Fighting should start as soon as possible. Who cares if it looks pretty as long as you win.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You learn to fight by fighting, period.
No way around it.
To state that a WC practitioner shouldn't fight in the first 3 years ( much less 5, LOL), is stating that WC is GROSSLY INFERIOR to every other MA in which the practitioner can AND does fight even before those time frames, and they fight well.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Originally Posted by Phil Redmond

Wing Chun was developed to fight the Manchu as quick as possible. It is a martial art so it's about the fighting. Fighting should start as soon as possible. Who cares if it looks pretty as long as you win.

Yep, and I add that in NO WAY can you EVER develop correct structure, footwork and technique to counter a LIVE opponent UNLESS you fight and fight often.

[k gledhill]

Originally Posted by Ali. R

It’s good to disagree, it keeps the mind flowing and sometimes help those who can see what others can’t see.

You are dealing with energies/mind set unlike boxing, grappling, and so on… Right from the time when you were a little child you can recognize most of the moves and concepts from boxing, grappling, and many other physical ideas when it comes to fighting and sports.

But if you haven’t develop a good relationship with concepts that you never seen or heard of before, when sparring you’ll only go right back to what’s natural within your muscle memory, and without the right mentality you’ll never get started in learning anything.

Hence, throwing your art right out of the window while sparring immaturely, and will still try to claim it as a ligament/demonstration of what you’ve studied, when it’s clear that there is no development, mentally and physically. Wing Chun or kung fu is not MMA.

If someone walks the streets wondering when; and if he or she will have a fight, then they need to move away from that area or grow up. If you want to be able to defend yourself on a pro level using kung fu within A year of training, I suggest learn to do this and get good at it, or take MMA.

http://youtu.be/m_vZ90qpvxo

Ali

Ving Tsun REQUIRES sparring as a goal to aim for ....unless you want to wait 5 years to figure out you made an error for 5 years before learning it was there ...er, sparring.

Sparring doesnt have to be brutal, it has levels of pressure a teacher can put a student under to show the student and teacher where weaknesses might be....

Drills are modules that allow a mutual exchange and pressure increases, tests , NOT to spar, the drills are the correction time.

Sparring is Pressure testing the whole package.

[Ali. R]

Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin

You learn to fight by fighting, period.
No way around it.
To state that a WC practitioner shouldn't fight in the first 3 years ( much less 5, LOL), is stating that WC is GROSSLY INFERIOR to every other MA in which the practitioner can AND does fight even before those time frames, and they fight well.

Sure, you learn to fight by fighting, but if you don’t study or master your weapon; then you and your weapon will not be as one. If your gun jams in combat, you should be able to break it down within second; because you were trained to master that weapon before using it.

Ali

[sanjuro_ronin]

Originally Posted by Ali. R

Sure, you learn to fight by fighting, but if you don’t study or master your weapon; then you and your weapon will not be as one. If your gun jams in combat, you should be able to break it down within second; because you were trained to master that weapon before using it.

Ali

You can't master something without using it dude.

[Ali. R]

Originally Posted by k gledhill

Ving Tsun REQUIRES sparring as a goal to aim for ....unless you want to wait 5 years to figure out you made an error for 5 years before learning it was there ...er, sparring.

Sparring doesnt have to be brutal, it has levels of pressure a teacher can put a student under to show the student and teacher where weaknesses might be....

Drills are modules that allow a mutual exchange and pressure increases, tests , NOT to spar, the drills are the correction time.

Sparring is Pressure testing the whole package.

In Wing Chun you train to spar, then from there you learn how to fight/spar.

Ali

[free2flow]

Think this is relevant to the topic:

Progressive resistance and Variable Intensity.

http://jkdunlimited.com/articles/by-...ble-intensity/

[Phil Redmond]

Originally Posted by k gledhill

Ving Tsun REQUIRES sparring as a goal to aim for ....unless you want to wait 5 years to figure out you made an error for 5 years before learning it was there ...er, sparring.

Sparring doesnt have to be brutal, it has levels of pressure a teacher can put a student under to show the student and teacher where weaknesses might be....

Drills are modules that allow a mutual exchange and pressure increases, tests , NOT to spar, the drills are the correction time.

Sparring is Pressure testing the whole package.

We agree Kevin...... jk

[Ali. R]

Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin

You can't master something without using it dude.

Inter -or- outer workings of anything that may need brain power to bring into reality or into the physical realm (the concept of understanding), like reading before writing.

Ali

[sanjuro_ronin]

Originally Posted by Ali. R

Inter -or- outer workings of anything that may needs brain power to bring into reality or into the physical realm (the concept of understanding), like reading before writing.

Ali

Note you said READING, an activity.
I have serious reservations when I hear of MA teachers that keep their students from actually FIGHTING with their MA.

[Ali. R]

Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin

Note you said READING, an activity.
I have serious reservations when I hear of MA teachers that keep their students from actually FIGHTING with their MA.

Of course it’s an activity, but without any physical attributes other then sight and mind to form an understanding. Just like doing the SLT, CK and Wooden Man or drills (developing a good understanding of muscle memory/mental awareness/structural integrity).

I have students that fight all the time, put only when they're ready.

Ali