Bung Bu Comparisons (Seven Star, CCK TJPM, TJPM)

[mooyingmantis]

About seven years ago I began researching a few of the differences between the many versions of Bung Bu that I have seen.
Here is a small comparison on one small section of Bung Bu. Please feel free to add your comments!

WHF Seven Star Praying Mantis

Ascend Mountain, Left Thrust Palm
Ascend Mountain, Right Insert Strike
Vertical Leap, Seal Gathering Strike
Enter Ring, Right Fold Elbow
Enter Ring, Right Crushing Strike
At Back Kick, Double Turn Palms
Horse Stance, Double Seal Hands

CCK Tai Chi Praying Mantis

Ascend Mountain, Left Thrust Palm
Ascend Mountain, Right Insert Strike
Left Lift Knee, Right High Grab/Left Palm Strike
Right Lift Knee, Right Fold Elbow
Right Jade Ring, Right Crushing Strike
Twist Stance, Hang & Spear Hand
Horse Stance, Double Seal Hand

Tai Chi Praying Mantis

Seven Star, Right Nation Palm
Jade Ring, Right Carry Hand into a Punch
Right Twist Stance, Double Hook Grabs
Right Lift Knee, Right Coiling Elbow
Right Jade Ring, Right Crushing Strike
Twist Stance, Left Colliding Claw/Right Palm
Reverse Bow Stance, Double Seal Hands (Smoothly Drag Sheep)

Note that I used the Seven Star terminology through most of the comparisons unless I was aware of terminology used with the style that I described.

[gunglihchuan]

A very interesting thread. I study CCK Tai Chi Praying mantis kung fu. A Sifu in my system, Sifu Tse has written a book on this form Taichi Mantis Peng Pu Boxing. He lists 56 moves.

The following is a video of my performance of CCK Tai Chi Praying mantis Bung Bu Chuan.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...deoid=40627603

[mooyingmantis]

Gunglihchuan,
Nice execution of the form in your video! Thanks for participating in this discussion!
I have translated part of the book mentioned (the English translation in the book didn't always accurately reflect the Chinese text) and have seen several videos of the form on YouTube. My favorite video of the CCK TJPM version on YouTube was Alexander Tse demonstrating the form slowly for reference purposes. It was very helpful for my research.
If others are willing to join in the discussion, I will post more comparative sections of the the form.
Richard

[gunglihchuan]

Thank you for your kind words Richard.

I know only about 30 Chinese characters but I think that translation inaccuracies will always be a problem with English and Asian languages. They are very different but it does give you an interesting insight into their culture.

I also agree that Sifu Tse has a great many excellent clips of CCK Tai Chi Praying mantis Bung Bu and the CCK Tai Chi Praying Mantis system in general.

I think it is very interesting to look at the similarities and differences concerning the original northern praying mantis form. This thread would be great material for a series of articles in any martial arts magazine.


Regards,

Steve

[seung ga faat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RiEnhwmXJg
Here is another Bung Bo Form.
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[mooyingmantis]

Othal,
I like the way you "flow" through that form. Very nice!
I only see one difference in the way I learned the form from my instructor, Mike Biggie, and that is in the way you do and apply 登 山 左 插 掌, deng shan zuo cha zhang/ascend mountain, left thrust palm. Is the 左 衝 爪 zuo chong zhao/left colliding claw before the 插 掌 cha zhang/thrust palm how you were taught the form, or is a personal innovation?
Either way I think it is very interesting! It was nice to see that application.
Thank you for sharing!
Richard

[gunglihchuan]

I agree with Richard, Sifu Thomas.

A very fluid and skillful version of Bung Bu. It is always nice to see the applications as well.

[seung ga faat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvGARZDXMpY
Here are some applications for the transition.
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[mooyingmantis]

Othal,
Interesting explanation of the "suspend" and "crashing" keyword theories.
How long have you practiced chut sing tang lang? You apparently have many years experience.

All,
I think one of the most interesting differences in the three styles that I compared is the TJPM "smoothly lead the sheep" (WHF 7* calls this double seal hands).
In the 7* PM and CCK TJPM the action ends in a Horse or Riding Tiger Stance, while in TJPM the practitoner faces the opposite direction in an Ascend Mountain stance. The final position looks almost like the practitioner is performing a right gwa and a left uppercut strike, yet it is actually akin to the double seal hands.
Any thoughts on this?

[Luk Hop]

Over the years I have had the opportunity to have studied multiple versions of Bung Bu within some of the various 7* and Northern lines.

For me, when I watch someone playing Bung Bu (7* or Northern), I pay considerable attention to the body and how its transitions from the intro through the tiger stances and on to the first mantis catches the cicada.

I find almost all of the following variations of the form irrelevant. If one is only concerned with the individual postures, and if there is depth in the curriculum that is being studied, one usually will encounter some, if not most, or even all of the different variations in later or advanced sets even though different lineages may be involved. Yes there may be exceptions, but then one would need to have an idea of what is implied by "depth in the curriculum".

However, Mooyingmantis, I do applaud your research and I know from experience that it can be an interesting yet dubious task of tracing some of the changes. Who, what, how, why, when and where can become intriguing and sometimes entertaining.

Best wishes in your studies.

[seung ga faat]

Hello,
In our 7 Star the movements are called:
- bow posture, pierce palm
- bow posture assisted fist strike
- advance step, golden **** poses on one leg, wild goose claw-fist strike
- enter circle step, overlapping elbow
- enter circle step, sitting fist strike
- rear treasure kick,white goose takes flight
- frog posture, evil king invites guest

I have been studying not long enough......
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[mooyingmantis]

Originally Posted by Luk Hop

For me, when I watch someone playing Bung Bu (7* or Northern), I pay considerable attention to the body and how its transitions from the intro through the tiger stances and on to the first mantis catches the cicada.

I find almost all of the following variations of the form irrelevant. If one is only concerned with the individual postures, and if there is depth in the curriculum that is being studied, one usually will encounter some, if not most, or even all of the different variations in later or advanced sets even though different lineages may be involved. Yes there may be exceptions, but then one would need to have an idea of what is implied by "depth in the curriculum".

Lol, I learned three different transitions from the same teacher.

I agree as to the redundancy in 7* PM. As the old spaghetti sause commercial said, "It's in there!" Over and over the same ideas are in one form after another. From Beng Bu Quan to Yin Yi Lu Bai Yuan Kui Yan the principles repeat and build.

Thanks for joining the discussion Luk Hop!

[mooyingmantis]

Originally Posted by seung ga faat

Hello,
In our 7 Star the movements are called:
- bow posture, pierce palm
- bow posture assisted fist strike
- advance step, golden **** poses on one leg, wild goose claw-fist strike
- enter circle step, overlapping elbow
- enter circle step, sitting fist strike
- rear treasure kick,white goose takes flight
- frog posture, evil king invites guest

I have been studying not long enough......

I am assuming the alternate name for rooster was ****.

Thanks for sharing the names you use for your techniques!

[Davemantis]

I am curious out of the different variations of Bung bu what is your favourite?
I have only ever trained the 7* and CCK Tai Chi mantis Bung bu under sifu Tse and I do tend to favour the CCK Tai Chi version

[mooyingmantis]

Originally Posted by Davemantis

I am curious out of the different variations of Bung bu what is your favourite?
I have only ever trained the 7* and CCK Tai Chi mantis Bung bu under sifu Tse and I do tend to favour the CCK Tai Chi version

I like the 7* version for its straight forward, no nonsense linear approach. I like the CCK TJPM version for its aesthetic beauty. I believe both are devastatingly effective and teach important principles. So I don't really prefer one or the other. I respect both equally for what they offer.

Thanks for joining the discussion Davemantis!