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Thread: Shaolin Xin Yi related sets

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    Shaolin Xin Yi related sets

    Background (from my forthcoming book):

    Shaolin Xinyi Quan was influenced from outside the monastery by the Tongbei Quan related Liuhe (Six Harmony) Quan martial arts that came out of the Qianzai Temple that had spread into the Luoyang area of Henan and northwest into Shanxi through the teachings of Ji Longfeng. This transmission was unlike the previous Shaolin Quan system that had been a major root influence on part of the development of Tongbei Quan. Instead, the Taoist side of Tongbei Quan was introduced back into Shaolin via the influence of Ji Longfeng.

    First Ji Longfeng had visited Shaolin (most likely more than once) and exchanged much martial art information with the monks there at the time (early 1600s). The monks practiced their animal mimicking styles derived from Bai Yufeng’s Wu Quan system (including Luohan Quan). Also they practiced Hong Quan, Pao Quan, Taizu Chang Quan, Yuan-Hou (Ape-Monkey) Quan, Mi Quan, Duanda, Rou Quan, and other material, as documented by various books written during the 1500s-1700s time period. They were especially known for their staff, spear, and sword techniques by then, which had been greatly improved through outside military advisors.

    One of the animal mimicking methods included a simple set of ancient techniques drawn from the movements of farmers and local domestic and wild animals. Yang Jwing-Ming, in his book Xingyiquan : Theory, Applications, Fighting Tactics and Spirit, argues that aspects of Xingyi Quan (particularly the animal styles) are identifiable as far back as the Liang Dynasty at the Shaolin Temple. Supposedly, Ji was impressed by Shaolin’s movements that were taken from the Rooster, Eagle, and other animals. On the other hand, the Shaolin monks were greatly awed by Ji’s Liuhe spear methods and worked to incorporate his Liuhe knowledge into their martial arts. According to the research of Dr. Yan Zhiyuan, who examined various ancient quanpu manuals, the ‘Spear Method of Teacher Ji,’ which is contained in an ancient Shaolin manual, is a combination of Ji’s spear techniques and text from the Tongbei Quanpu manual. From this first exchange, the Shaolin Xinyi (heart mind) Quan sets were developed.

    Shaolin Xinyi Quan
    Shaolin practiced various Xinyi Quan sets that resemble movements from the Henan Xinyi Liuhe Quan style. Many of the movements are like the Five Element movements of Pi, Zhuan, Beng, Pao, and Heng. Also, points out Dr. Yan, the particular ‘Shaolin Xinyi Quan’ set practiced by the family of Shaolin lay disciple Jia Shuwang was in fact Tongbei Quan; it was probably developed from the boxing taught early on by Ji when he was teaching his spear methods to the Shaolin Monastery. As discussed earlier, this set was originally known as the Xie Xing Quan set (Slanted Walking Boxing) and it shared many postures and movements with those later seen in Chen Taiji Quan sets (such as Jingang Pound Mortar, Single Whip, and much more) and also it contains movements seen in only Xinyi Liuhe Quan (especially of the Rooster, Snake, Beng Quan, and others) as well. Thus, since Tongbei Quan was often called Xing Quan and since it was the foundational material from Qianzai Temple that Chen Wangting and his Li cousins used and that Ji Longfeng had learned as well, then it is very likely that the “Shaolin Xinyi Quan” shown in Jia Shuwang’s book was indeed a Shaolin set derived from the Tongbei Quan influenced boxing that was received from Ji Longfeng.

    It is very different from the Xinyi Liuhe quan that Ji later created. It is also different from the ‘12 Moves of the Xinyi Liuhe (Shaolin Xinyi Ba)’ set that was later passed to the Shaolin abbot by ‘Henan Li’, which was taught only to high ranking monks. Obviously, it is very different because it was more like Chen Taiji Quan’s version of Tongbei Quan than it was like the Tongbei Quan influenced Xinyi Liuhe Quan that Ji Longfeng developed. This set is nearly extinct today in the Shaolin temple itself, being seen more in the Henan countryside instead.
    Later, Ji Longfeng’s grand students had made a second exchange on their visits to Shaolin, and the Shaolin version of Xinyi Ba resulted. According to the book Pictorial Collection of China Martial Arts written by You Tang Hao, Ji later passed his knowledge to a hermit named Zheng (called Nan Shan Zheng Shi), and Zheng passed the information to a hermit, Li Shiming of Henan (called ‘Henan Fu’ Li), and Li finally passed it to a Luoyang Muslim named Ma Xueli (1714-1790) and to a non-Muslim Li Chen Chun. Li Shiming struck up a friendship with Shaolin's abbot around the years of the emperors' Yong Zheng (1723-1735) and Qian Long's (1735-1795) reigns. Li presented the abbot with a copy of the manual Ten Most Important Truths of Xinyi Liuhe, written by him in the 11th year of Emperor Yong Zheng's reign. This was Shaolin’s last Abbott until modern times, as he eventually resigned his post and left Henan.

    Describing the Six Harmonies, Li wrote, “The heart harmonizes with the intent, the qi with power, ligaments with bones, hand with foot, elbow with knee, shoulder with hip, this is the Liuhe. Six basic forms, each form with the ability to evolve into 12 forms, the 12 forms are still able to be returned back to each parent form.” It was treasured by the Shaolin monks for generations. In addition, he also taught the ‘Secret 24 Character Formula.’ Within this ’24 Character Formula’ is the sentence, ‘Tongbi is famous for its dodging; Xinyi is good at evasion.’ Li's disciple, Ma Xueli, the founder of Luoyang Xinyi Quan, and grand disciple, Ma Sanyuan, visited the temple too. Today, the Ma family Xinyi Ba set and the Shaolin Xinyi Ba still appear to share many features, postures, and movements, showing that they arise from a common source.

  2. #2
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    This new material branched into two separate but related areas:
    a - The Xin Yi Ba material further developed in Shaolin (a long story to get into)
    b - the Xin Yi related sets that feature Ji Longfeng and his students (Li Shiming, etc., as mentioned above).

    These Xin Yi related sets feature the Rooster, Tiger, and other animal imitating movements that Ji Longfeng used.
    Today the best known of these routines are the shorter "Qi Xing Quan" - 7 Star Boxing and the "Chang Hu Xin Yi Men" - Long Protect Heart Mind Gate.

    These two sets for some reason are just about always done the same way by practitioners, there is little variation seen.

    The Tagou books feature both sets, with Qi Xing Quan being 45 movements and Chang Pu Xin Yi Men being 96 movements.

    The Shaolin Encyclopedia shows for some reason doesn't show the Qi Xing Quan set.
    It does show the Chang Pu Xin Yi Men set (page 488 in the 4 volume version)
    What is does also show is some related sets: Xin Yi Ba, Xin Yi Quan, and Xin Yi Chang Quan (Heart Mind Long Fist).

    (There is also a set shown called Xin Yi Mizong Quan, but I don't know why it is called Xin Yi Quan ER Lu in the book.)
    Other booklets published by Shi DeQian do show the Chang Hu Xin Yi Men set though.

    Shi Dejun has a book on Qi Xing Quan.

    The book "Shaolin Wushu" from 1984 (no ISBN number in it) has the Xin Yi Quan set that was originally called Xie Xing Quan, which is now practiced mostly in Kaifeng rather than at Shaolin. This set is 80 postures, 152 movements.
    It looks like a combination of movements from Qi Xing, Chang Hu Xin Yi Men, and Chen Taiji Quan.
    Last edited by Sal Canzonieri; 10-25-2009 at 09:58 AM.

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    videos

    Videos (as shown on YouTube):

    Qi Xing Quan:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXxI_sJEszQ (most of the time Shi Yongzhi is doing this set)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lG3RN1KGY0 (here is does it in the rain without slipping!)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OhjZbbQvR4 (again, SYZ)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWKVO_wlf2Y (yet again, SYZ)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2awOCDRtrc (SYZ instructional)

    Chang Hu Xin Yi Men:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjtAJBlIUcU (Shi Yongzhi, short version)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVYErJ2GZP4 (Liu Baoshan, short version)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ileVWASgtVE (longer version)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_ctxgoBDNQ


    Other:

    Shaolin Tiger Catching and Shaolin Xin Yi Ba:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LTI0QR28Gk (by Yang Gui Wu, pretty much the set as in the Shaolin Encyclopedia)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5suagXNZsq0

    Shi DeJian doing his famous Xinyi Ba:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKsVJjfS

    少林寺 心意虎拳 Shaolin Shi Xin Yi Hu Quan:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uczQWHDKAfI

    Henan Xin Yi LiuHe Quan (you can see the similarities to Shaolin, since both developed from Ji Longfeng and his student's teachings):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYS67ZoL9SU (this is Bear, Eagle, Snake, and Rooster/Chicken)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amUA-VuzuFs (10 Big Animal Shapes set)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3uDG9 (Si Ba set)
    Last edited by Sal Canzonieri; 10-21-2009 at 07:24 PM. Reason: added more videos

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    Oh
    I know of one more related style,

    Shaolin Yue Fei quan,

    Almost extinct, only one set remaining, unless there are other sources my teacher is unaware of.

    ANother very unadorned practical set.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    Oh
    I know of one more related style,

    Shaolin Yue Fei quan,

    Almost extinct, only one set remaining, unless there are other sources my teacher is unaware of.

    ANother very unadorned practical set.
    Yes!!! I have been doing research on this set. I have a whole section devoted to it in my forthcoming book. It was once a very important set.
    It is between Eagle Claw and Fanzi Quan in substance.
    It is a Shaolin duan da set, which developed into the Fanzi Quan like Mian Quan, Cotton Fist.

    Can you please see if you can find out any historical info on this set?
    When is it from? How it got to Shaolin area? What is it related to? Anything at all you can find out, really.

    All the old Shaolin manuals from the 1600s write about this set.

    Also, the places that Shaolin monks went to around China during the early days of the Qing takeover also still teach it.
    It can be found in Shandong for example, in the Laizhou area, where the Mei Hua Men school teaches it. It was brought there hundreds of years ago. See the Tongbi Quan thread I made, my last posting there has info about this. See in the post that I have this set listed.

    It should be kinda like the famous 24 Roads of Yue Jia Ba Shi set that various style practice (Eagle Claw; Taiji Tongbei Quan; and so on).
    I have posted videos of it on my YouTube channel.

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    Xin Yi Ba

    There is one other book that shows a Xin Yi Ba set, other than the Shaolin Encyc.

    It is an entirely different set than it.

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    Can someone in China get me this book?

    There's two books I need very much for my research.
    Some Chinese used book sites have them for sale.

    Can someone please get them for me and I can pay them back right away?
    Or trade stuff for them?

    If anyone can do that for me, please PM me and I will send you the links to the books.

    I really need these two books very much, and have been searching for them for years!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri View Post
    (There is also a set shown called Xin Yi Mizong Quan, but I don't know why it is called Xin Yi Quan ER Lu in the book.)
    here are some sources that are years apart and unrelated that call the same thing by different names.

    first, as xinyiquan;

    1) i just posted a video from the first-ever shaolin monks tour in the u.s. (1992) with shi guolin demonstrating what is called shaolin xinyiquan (saying nothing about mizongquan):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0dJNVhbYSI

    2) the set shown in the shaolin encyclopedia called xinyiquan erlu says nothing about it being "mizongquan" either.

    second, as mizongquan;

    1) what master guolin just demonstrated is the same set, although quite different, as done by master deyang here, called mizongquan yilu:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvfRaGfJiBo

    2) the encyclopedia set "xinyiquan erlu" is shown here by master deyang as "mizongquan erlu", and he says nothing about them being "xinyiquan":
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snlDYY68ojk

    third, as xinyi mizongquan;

    in performance videos from master deyang, however, the mizongquan sets are titled "xinyi mizongquan". as shown in the red title characters at the beginning here:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbgPKjh1YA8

    so, these are unrelated sources, each calling it either xinyiquan or mizongquan, and one calling it xinyi mizongquan.

    master deyang has them as mizongquan yilu & erlu.

    i'm assuming the matching xinyiquan yilu that is not listed in the encyclopedia is what is demonstrated by shi guolin.

    so there we have xinyiquan yilu & erlu, also called mizongquan yilu & erlu, and only once titled as "xinyi mizongquan".

    since all of these sources only refer to the sets by one name and dont mention the other, i'm curious of their relation (xinyi to mizong). especially since they are only called mizongquan by shi deyang.

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    This is bizarre indeed.

    Not only is there is mixup between what Shaolin calls Xinyi Quan and Mizong Quan (Yi and Er Lu), but there are a series of different Shaolin sets called Xinyi Quan besides these two sets.

    First, in the four volume version of the Shaolin Encyclopedia, the Xin Yi Quan Yi Lu set shown is NOTHING like the Mizong (xinyi) Yi Lu set. In fact, it looks pretty much like just a Chang Quan set, or better yet a Tongbi Quan set. It has much more in common with Tongbi Quan than the Xinyi (Mizong) Er Lu set shown in this book.

    The Er Lu set that Shi Deyang does that is also shown in the Shaolin book, and the Yi Lu set that Shi Deyang does (that is not shown in the Shaolin book) have a lot in common with sets from the actual Mizong Quan style.

    But keep in mind that Shaolin received Mizong from a person hiding out in Shaolin who arrived from Shandong. It was called Yan Qing Boxing by this person, and then Shaolin later called it Mi Quan, "Lost", "Confusing" or "Secret" Boxing. By the 1600s and documented in books published in the 1700s, Shaolin took this Yang Qing Quan and further developed it into Shaolin Mi Quan. In Shandong it continued to develop for 150 more years into Mizong Quan, as a separate branch from Yanqing Quan. During the 1700s, Sun Tong, the founder of Mizong took Yanqing Quan and mixed it with some Shaolin Wu Quan (such as Luohan and Five Animals) that he learned from some named Zhang. So, MIZONG QUAN is very closely related to Shaolin Quan, but YanQing Quan is from an earlier branch and does not share a lot of Shaolin movements and postures that Mizong Quan contains. But, regardless, early Yanqing Quan was a major influence on the development of Shaolin empty hand boxing during the 1600s, which Shaolin called Mi Quan. Thus, we have two different types of related martail arts in association with Shaolin, Mi Quan and Mizong Quan. Hence, there can be totally different sets with almost the same names.

    I don't see how in any way is this material got anything to do with Shaolin Xin Yi Quan that comes out of the visits of Ji Longfeng and Li Shimin and their students to Shaolin.

    First, lets look at the Shaolin Xin Yi Quan Yi Lu set shown in the Shaolin Encyclopedia.
    Some parts of my Shaolin research has shown me that this type of Shaolin Xin Yi quan since it was influenced by Ji Long Feng shares some major attributes with Xing Yi Quan, and I have heard that Shaolin Xin Yi Quan was also more correctly known as Xing Quan - Walking or Traveling Boxing, 行拳, and thus would also make it related to Wen Family Xing Quan (later became Ba Shan Fan and Fanzi Quan) and Eagle Claw Xing Quan, which are both closely associated with Dong Cheng's Tongbei Quan, which was also known as Xing Quan - Traveling Boxing.
    AND, if you look at videos of all these Xing Quan, they are very much like this Shaolin Xin Yi Quan Yi Lu set shown in the Shaolin Encyclopedia:

    http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDQyMDg3NTI=.html (形意十二行拳)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sGIkkgMuXA (鹰爪翻子行拳)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1j0M7D6pJoA (鷹爪翻子拳 之 行拳 (喜帖街))
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6U4oY6Bjbw (鷹爪翻子拳 之 行拳 (甜蜜蜜))
    http://www.youtube.com/user/SifuWu#p/u/155/pCowYkuQVDI (some classic Tongbeiquan -通背拳 - 小连环)

    So, let's say for now, that the Xin Yi Quan Yi Lu set shown in the Shaolin book is correct.

    --------------------------

    Now, the Er Lu set shown in the Shaolin book and the Yi lu and Er lu sets performed by Shi Deyang are nothing like the Xinyi Quan Yi Lu set shown in the Shaolin Book.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvfRaGfJiBo (Shaolin Mizong Quan Yi Lu)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snlDYY68ojk (Shaolin Mizong Quan Er Lu)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbgPKjh1YA8 (same sets called Xinyi Mizong Quan)

    Instead, these sets are pretty close to the real Mizong Quan and Yang Qing Quan sets that can be found:

    燕青拳 -Yan Qing Quan sets:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI-mrZNJ (Xiao Shi Quan - Small Form Fist)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O400Sw2KS1s (San Bu Jia - Three Step Frame)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxxCJXBtWSQ (another set by same person)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ROOSjmF1Uk (Mianzhangquan - 绵掌拳)

    秘宗拳 - Mizong Quan sets:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVHCpVSDljw (Small Five Animals Fist - 小五虎拳)

    By the way, there are Shaolin Yan Qing Quan routines documented as well. I have seen one one set that Liu Zhenhai has shown in his Shaolin routines books.
    Here's Shi Dejun doing a 少林燕青拳 set (it's at the end of this annoying video):
    http://www.56.com/u80/v_NDY1MTE4NTM.html
    Last edited by Sal Canzonieri; 10-24-2009 at 10:45 PM.

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    i was watching this xing yi quan
    http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDQyMDg3NTI=.html (形意十二行拳)
    and noticed it has a lot of similar or the same movements to some of a rou quan (er lu) set i previously learned which is also similar to a pao quan set which would also lead me to believe it originally came from a hong quan set? anyones opinions on this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wuseng33 View Post
    i was watching this xing yi quan
    http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDQyMDg3NTI=.html (形意十二行拳)
    and noticed it has a lot of similar or the same movements to some of a rou quan (er lu) set i previously learned which is also similar to a pao quan set which would also lead me to believe it originally came from a hong quan set? anyones opinions on this?
    Well, now that's very interesting. Very keen observation on your part.

    Rou Quan ER Lu set? Is it this one (which I practice and teach)?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SabJwXlBwEY
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puIJYVYgu_s

    Rou Quan came first, then Hong Quan / Pao Quan.

    Shaolin practiced Rou Quan a long time before anything else.

    But, this particular set comes from a different area of Rou Quan, this set is very much like Taji Quan, which comes from Tongbei Quan, which comes from Shaolin Hong and Pao Quan.

    If it's not that particular set, then which one?

  12. #12
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    taijiquan

    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri View Post
    But, this particular set comes from a different area of Rou Quan, this set is very much like Taji Quan, which comes from Tongbei Quan, which comes from Shaolin Hong and Pao Quan.
    Looks a lot like taiji to me...
    .... Skip

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    hey sal, sorry im in china and cant watch youtube here unfortunetly but the rou quan er lu I learnt is from the Shi su xi linange. to describe it, i would have to say it has a lot of similar and same movements to pao quan (the one that the old monk preforms on the golf course) however is a lot longer with more defensive movements and silk reeling.
    I also recall hearing something interesting a long time ago which i dont know if is true? but was something along the lines of xin yi ba was developed from rou quan, hong quan and pao quan and if you study these 3 systems all the xin yi ba movements can be found? has anyone else heard this? which could mean in theory if you study rou, hong and pao quan forms you may well know some xin yi ba and not realize it depending on your understanding of the movements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wuseng33 View Post
    hey sal, sorry im in china and cant watch youtube here unfortunetly but the rou quan er lu I learnt is from the Shi su xi linange. to describe it, i would have to say it has a lot of similar and same movements to pao quan (the one that the old monk preforms on the golf course) however is a lot longer with more defensive movements and silk reeling.
    I also recall hearing something interesting a long time ago which i dont know if is true? but was something along the lines of xin yi ba was developed from rou quan, hong quan and pao quan and if you study these 3 systems all the xin yi ba movements can be found? has anyone else heard this? which could mean in theory if you study rou, hong and pao quan forms you may well know some xin yi ba and not realize it depending on your understanding of the movements.
    I really would like to see this Rou Quan set you are talking about. I will see if any Chinese websites have any videos of the Rou Quan Er Lu set I linked to YouTube.

    Yes, Xin yi ba came out of Ji Longfeng's and Li Shimin's visits to Shaolin.
    So, by that time period, Rou Quan, Hong Quan, and Pao Quan already had existed for a long time.
    Monks were fearful that the Xinyi Ba would be lost over time, so they embedded postures within other Shaolin sets. Plus, I guess also as you point out, older sets would have the roots of Xinyi Ba within their postures.
    This information is out there, Zhu Tien Xi has done many articles for "Real Kung Fu" magazine in Hong Kong on such topics over the last 4 years or so.

    OKAY:

    here's a chinese website that has a Shaolin Rou Quan Yi Lu set, companion to the Er Lu set:
    http://www.56.com/u16/v_MjAzNDg3NzM.html

    Please let me know if it is the same one as you are discussing, thanks
    Last edited by Sal Canzonieri; 10-25-2009 at 07:42 PM.

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    well, no thats not the set i know. it contains some similar movements which are common to all the rou quan sets i have seen however i was under the impression that this set was put together just for demonstrations as it seems to have a few influences in there and not as simple as the rou quan sets ive seen. also his the fa jing style he useses i have not seen in other rou quan sets i have only seen yan zhuang do it like this. yan zhuang is also know for his shaolin xin yi sets however sorry i dotn know whats been posted previously due to great fire wall. the thing i have found which is strange in the set i leaned are a lot of the movements are repeated on both sides eg. it starts with a xinyi style step (yanzhuang does at 0.33) then repeats on the opposite side and this is common to a quite a few movements in the form.

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