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Thread: The Water Margin / Outlaws of the Marsh

  1. #1

    The Water Margin / Outlaws of the Marsh

    anyone else read this classic chinese novel?
    its loaded with gong fu and every hero has his own weapon speciality. www.martialartsmart.com even carries "hero li kwei's double axes" (jan/feb 2002 issue of kungfu mag., p. 83)

    the book has been translated into english by the beijing foreign language press
    apparently it was mao zedong's favourite book
    what are your thoughts on the book?
    any favourite heros? i'm a big lin chong fan. i think he's one of the only characters that was consistently honourable his whole tragic life

    Wang Si Zhong

  2. #2
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    I've read it...

    I often re-read it, but I admit I skip around a lot. Sometimes I only focus on the good parts. It's hard to keep track of all the names in the big Chinese epics. But I'd put that one right up there with Journey to the West and Three Kingdoms as important martial arts reads. Plus t's the sourcebook for so many HK KF movies - stuff like Dragon Inn makes so much more sense.
    And Wu Song rocks! He's my favorite hero of Water Margin.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

  3. #3

    thread tie-in

    gene,

    speaking of your other thread about the FSY and CTHD tv shows, did you catch the outlaws of the marsh show? i don't know if its on the air now, but i managed to get a 43 disc vcd set of the whole series. don't understand more than 2 words out of 50, but having read the book i could kind of follow the story. but, as is always the case, i got through the first 42 discs with no hassle, then the last disc was messed up and i missed the most important event in the whole story! at least i know what happened, but still.

    question though, what level of acting are these shows at from a chinese viewer point of view? it's hard to tell if something is being acted at a high level when you can't understand the language....

    Wang Si Zhong

  4. #4
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    good question

    I think their level of acting is about the same as the acting on our sitcoms. Some good moments, lots of bad moments - mediocre. It's also hard to judge because they often retain the trappings of Chinese opera, which has some surreal stereotypes that often come off campy if you don't understand them.
    I saw a little of the water margin series in my local video store a long time ago. Your collection sounds really cool. And your laser disc crash sounds so typical. I stillhaven't seen the end of shaolin soccer because it crashed my vcd player (but now I have the dvd - just got to get a player)
    I also saw a little monkey king, which I really liked for its cheesy magic. White snake is another good one for cheesy magic - I saw that in China. I remember flipping on this scene where the abbot was chanting at this beautiful snake woman and swastikas were flying out of his mouth, subduing her. Waht a visual - it really stuck.
    I would really love to see some of the Three Kingdoms series...
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

  5. #5

    white snake

    my school got all the english teachers tickets to the sichuan opera and i think we saw "white snake". a friend of mine was able to give me an idea of what was going on. never would have expected an opera to contain wushu and acrobatics, but it beats fat people in viking hats!

    i considered getting the 3 kingdoms collection because it had english subs, but i figured since i haven't read the book yet and its wicked expensive, i'd put it off.

    i saw a lot of the monkey king show because it plays like every day in china, but i thought it was mostly just silly. again, i'd have to read the book first.

    i read the "dream of red mansion" (heng lou meng), so it would be cool to see a subbed version of that.

    if you're really interested in the water margin series, we might be able to work out a sale--as long as it doesn't interfere with martialartsmart.com business

    Wang Si Zhong

  6. #6
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    opera and martial arts

    Actually martial arts are a very big part of traditional opera. There is even a character-archetype, the wusen, or warrior, that is a fixture in opera. And of course, there's the old 'red opera boats' legends of southern kungfu where skills were hidden in opera. But when you think about it, the opera skills are realy phenomenal, because not only do you have to bust the moves, you have to do it in these outrageously bulky costumes. Both Jackie and Sammo trace there roots to opera style.
    Thanks for the offer on the series, but I doubt there would be too many sales - too expensive, too narrow. I suspect those who want it would find there own means to get it. I worked for a previous company that sold all the classics we mentioned - man, I pushed those titles because I really believe in them - but the didn't really sell at all. Only CMA that really wanted to understand the cultural context went for it, and most of them were good enought researcher to find it on their own.
    As for white snake, you might check out Tsui Hark's Green Snake, starring Maggie Cheung and Joey Wang. Cheesy effects, but it's a beuatiful film and a guilty pleasure of mine.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

  7. #7
    hey gene,

    "Thanks for the offer on the series, but I doubt there would be too many sales - too expensive, too narrow."

    i don't know what you mean by too secular (not buddhist enough?), but i didn't think 20 bucks US plus shipping for a box 43 vcds at 45 minutes each would be all that expensive, but i digress

    i'll keep an eye out for green snake...

    Wang Si Zhong

  8. #8
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    $20 usd?!

    OK, I take it back. Tha's not bad at all. Can you get me a copy?
    But what I meant by narrow (poor choice of words) was that there isn't much of a market for it here in the USA. Those that want it can generally get it. Those that can't, don't want it - they don't even know what it is.
    The vcd format is pretty troublesome. Most westerners aren't familiar with it. Most DVD can play VCDs now, but we did experiment in that market a got more returns and complaints. Perhaps we were too early.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

  9. #9
    Hi Gene,

    Wusheng (Mo Sang, Male Martial), Wudan (Mo Deng, "Female" (in "drag") Martial), Wujing (Mo Jing, Painted Face Martial), and some variations (Lao/Old, Siu/Young) were all pretty sweet with the martial arts (after the specialist roles were developed and spread). Wushen is probably the most famous due to General Guan (General Kwan), the Monkey King, etc.

    Many of the master performers were Wusheng in the old days, I think, before the Xiaosheng (Siu Sang, Small Male) role, with its good looks and singing skills, began to gain in popularity and import.

    The Red Junk Company (Hongchuan Xiban, Hung Suen Hei Ban), part of the Precious Jade Flower Union (Qianghua Huiguan, King Fa Wui Goon) was known to have some good MAists aboard in the Fukien White Crane, Hung boxing, Hakka, Wing Chun, Weng Chun, etc. traditions (before they were destroyed/scattered by the Qing in retaliation for their support of the Red Turban Uprising).

    I think, even now, the modern (post Mao) Wushu draws on that tradition, if only in the thrill of the performance.

    Rgds,

    RR

  10. #10
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    The Water Margin / Outlaws of the Marsh

    Supernatural speed?

    I remember reading in the Water Margin (a.k.a. Outlaws of the Marsh) somewhere that a Taoist priest attached talismans to a fellow outlaw’s arms and legs, which allowed them to fun very fast (provided they refrained from eating meat and drinking alcohol). Was this Taoist Gongsun Sheng, Pan Rui or somebody else? And who was the runner? It's been a while since I last read it.

    I do believe the person affixed with the talismans was supposed to be delivering an urgent message. This is going to burn at me until I find out who the Taoist is! SOMEONE PLEASE HELP!!!

    This fictional technique sounds vaguely similar to that practiced by the Lung Gom-Pa (“Wind Meditation”) runners of Tibet.

  11. #11
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    If no one else has ansswered by tommorow, I will look it up and give you a conclusive answer. My tentative answer just going by memory is that it was Wu Yong. It MIGHT have been Gong Sunsheng but my reccolection is that it was Wu Yong. The two of them were "brothers" (xong di) both practicing daoist magic and all that but I seem to remember that Wu Yong was the master strategist and the one who did the "speed" magic while Gong Sunsheng was more into summoning storms and stuff like that.

    catch you later. It's too late over here to look this kind of thing up for you.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by omarthefish View Post
    If no one else has ansswered by tommorow, I will look it up and give you a conclusive answer. My tentative answer just going by memory is that it was Wu Yong. It MIGHT have been Gong Sunsheng but my reccolection is that it was Wu Yong. The two of them were "brothers" (xong di) both practicing daoist magic and all that but I seem to remember that Wu Yong was the master strategist and the one who did the "speed" magic while Gong Sunsheng was more into summoning storms and stuff like that.

    catch you later. It's too late over here to look this kind of thing up for you.
    Thanks a bunch! I found out the runner's name is Dai Zhong. That might help you some. All I want to know now is if it was Wu Yong he got the talismans from.

  13. #13

    108 Figures of "water margin"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QO2E...eature=related

    which one is your favorite?

    if any?

    mine is Lin Chong.

    he was the dude that wielded the long spear very well.


  14. #14
    watch out for the volume turned louder in the middle.

    this is a very good collection of all the 108 figures.


  15. #15
    see how may weapons you may identify?


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