Bong Sau's on the dummy

[Paul T England]

Hi All,

Teaching my students the other day and we started discussing the Dummy form and the large number of Bong Sau's....

The dummy version I teach (close to Ip Chun version) has losts of bongs and I used to hear that Bong Sau was an emergency technique and should rarely be seem!

For me I take the majority of the Bongs in the dummy as contacts that could be replaced with many other shapes like tan, pak or jam.

Any opiniions?

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[namron]

a lot of working from inside to outside i suspect

[Jeff Bussey]

Hi Paul,

Hi All,

Teaching my students the other day and we started discussing the Dummy form and the large number of Bong Sau's....

The dummy version I teach (close to Ip Chun version) has losts of bongs and I used to hear that Bong Sau was an emergency technique and should rarely be seem!

For me I take the majority of the Bongs in the dummy as contacts that could be replaced with many other shapes like tan, pak or jam.

Any opiniions?

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

I personally think bong works best in an emergency sit. and at really close quarters.
I have a hard time using it the way you usually see it depicted with your hands far away from the body. I would rather use something else if my hands are that far away.

Again, it's just my opinion, but it is effective when your close to someone, and they try to grab you when your hands down at your side.

J

[YungChun]

Close off facing, to fold them over.. Change lines, going with his force, conversion to elbow.. Got to have energy present, power applied/received to make it work. I also have used it when the attack was unexpected, it's faster to get the elbow up, than the hand when the arm is down. Otherwise the bong is not my preferred tool for intercepting..

[Alan Orr]

Someone please tell me, why people teach wing chun when they do not understand the system?

Regards

Alan

[YungChun]

Someone please tell me, why people teach wing chun when they do not understand the system?

Regards

Alan

By all means... Teach us bong...

I'm sure there is more than one valid use.. Folks need to use it as it works or not for them in application..

I don't always agree with other folk's chi sao and use of tools therein. To each his own..

[YungChun]

bongs are all the same on dummy and the system ....just trained on the low arm for jing [displacement force] slap !! to remove laterally any arm that has xed 'spatialy' your line to the target..in other words it doesnt need contact [wrong chisao thinking] to ballisticly remove an arm as we attack..

You mean it doesn't need pre-contact I assume?

I see bong mainly as a way to let force go and then help it leave the line, (elbow as third limb) close their facing, jam them, take the flank more often but not always and help convert back to offense--retaking the line--filing space.

I also see it as part of a WCK flinch response..

And forward energy is what powers bong..

And of course there are three different bongs in the system, which have different apps.

[LoneTiger108]

Someone please tell me, why people teach wing chun when they do not understand the system?

Regards

Alan

Maybe it's been this way for so long that people just generally do not notice anymore Alan. How do you judge peoples understanding?

IMO 'Bong' was referred to as a 'search' or 'seeking' arm, theoretically. And this is in relation to elbow positioning more than hand/palm position but both are equally important. With reference to the 'Dummy' training, it may help if its clear what we're talking of here, 108/116 or set drills or something else?

"I used to hear that Bong Sau was an emergency technique and should rarely be seem!" (seen?)

I think what Paul is referring to here is an old saying the 'Bong Sau never stays still', which implies that the whole body moves during Bong Sau, which also relates to another comment on 'inside to outside' drills.

Strange post though by you Alan, all the same. Directed at anyone in particular?

[Alan Orr]

Maybe it's been this way for so long that people just generally do not notice anymore Alan. How do you judge peoples understanding?

IMO 'Bong' was referred to as a 'search' or 'seeking' arm, theoretically. And this is in relation to elbow positioning more than hand/palm position but both are equally important. With reference to the 'Dummy' training, it may help if its clear what we're talking of here, 108/116 or set drills or something else?

"I used to hear that Bong Sau was an emergency technique and should rarely be seem!" (seen?)

I think what Paul is referring to here is an old saying the 'Bong Sau never stays still', which implies that the whole body moves during Bong Sau, which also relates to another comment on 'inside to outside' drills.

Strange post though by you Alan, all the same. Directed at anyone in particular?

I judge peoples understanding from what I see, feel and hear. On this forum I am tried of hearing such a lack of anything.

emergency technique?? Why would we use it all the time in Chi Sao if that was the case? It is a close range extension of our body structure. You should be able to use your bong to feel, press, stick, flow in close range. Without the body control behind bong it is dead. It is a bridge that can be crossed my me but not my opponent. It is a conductor of force via the centre of the body. The dummy teaches flow in close range not applications ...Much more...

Regards

Alan

www.alanorr.com

[YungChun]

I judge peoples understanding from what I see, feel and hear. On this forum I am tried of hearing such a lack of anything.

emergency technique?? Why would we use it all the time in Chi Sao if that was the case? It is a close range extension of our body structure. You should be able to use your bong to feel, press, stick, flow in close range. Without the body control behind bong it is dead. It is a bridge that can be crossed my me but not my opponent. It is a conductor of force via the centre of the body. The dummy teaches flow in close range not applications ...Much more..

I think that was clearly expressed..

Additionally, in modern combatives, you have something called a flinch response, a primal reaction to a sudden threat. In my personal experience, when folks have tried to sucker punch me I found that my elbow often came up in a bong as a flinch.. Seems logical my body chose this move because the elbow does come up fastest to cover IME.. No question in my mind bong can also serve this function since it did.

Also IMO anything you do real-time is an application.......

[sihing]

I think that was clearly expressed..

Additionally, in modern combatives, you have something called a flinch response, a primal reaction to a sudden threat. In my personal experience, when folks have tried to sucker punch me I found that my elbow often came up in a bong as a flinch.. Seems logical my body chose this move because the elbow does come up fastest to cover IME.. No question in my mind bong can also serve this function since it did.

Also IMO anything you do real-time is an application.......

David Peterson talks about this exact usage in his Chum Kiu DVD, it is one of the 3 usages of Bong for the WSL line. If the hands are down by your side, your elbow is the closest, and most useful tool to use to avoid a direct hit from someone sucker punching you. In the DVD he talks about the english translation of Bong from chinese, and in essence it means "upper arm", not wing arm as some follow.

James

[Alan Orr]

Hi Jim

I think that was clearly expressed..

Additionally, in modern combatives, you have something called a flinch response, a primal reaction to a sudden threat. In my personal experience, when folks have tried to sucker punch me I found that my elbow often came up in a bong as a flinch.. Seems logical my body chose this move because the elbow does come up fastest to cover IME.. No question in my mind bong can also serve this function since it did.

Also IMO anything you do real-time is an application.......

Yes, anything in real time is an application but not alway the best one.

A sucker punch is just that, therefore if its done well you will get hit. I don't like the flinch response, I train martial arts to train my response to the best reaction and understanding. Modern combatives are good for people how don't train that much. The best is Tim Larkin TFT for that, as they use basic body methods and an understanding of primal reaction. But, it is limited as it is all based on the guy not countering not on something going wrong. To me martial arts training is about taking control of the opponent not reacting to them, thats to late.

Lifting the bong is the manner talk about is bad body structure, it will have no power and if the opponent is throwing punches rather that one punch then you will have problems. Also you lift you arm like that and your body is open. Bong should be after you have bridge contact to have good effect.

Regards


Alan

www.alanorr.com

[sanjuro_ronin]

The best is Tim Larkin TFT for that, as they use basic body...

Wasn't Tim part of SCARS ?
With Jerry Peterson ?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Bong sao can be a very useful defensive/redirective maneuver against parallel (matched/mirrored lead) straight stiff lead punches (not jabs) when you're on the outside of his arm - or even against a rear cross when not in matched/mirrored leads) - and an extended bong/wu into lop and hit or lop/gum and hit can also be used from the parallel position as an aggressive attack move against the guy with his hands held back - at a moment when he's not throwing punches (if you're close enough)...

and there are indeed many transitions that can come from bong sao.

As long as ALL OF THE ABOVE are done while moving into the opponent's space - albeit at a slight angle and not exactly head on.

If you're not doing that - you're asking for trouble by using bong sao. It's a move that needs pressure, angle, and immediate transition to something else.

[t_niehoff]

David Peterson talks about this exact usage in his Chum Kiu DVD, it is one of the 3 usages of Bong for the WSL line. If the hands are down by your side, your elbow is the closest, and most useful tool to use to avoid a direct hit from someone sucker punching you. In the DVD he talks about the english translation of Bong from chinese, and in essence it means "upper arm", not wing arm as some follow.

James

If your hands are down, you won't have time to raise your elbow to cover a "sucker punch" (you still need to raise your hand to chin level). And, this is a very poor way to cover (as you will be knocked off balance).

"Bong", according to my chinese-american dictionary, represents "side of flesh" and means shoulder or wing.