Hong Quan anyone?

[Sal Canzonieri]

I've been researching Hong Quan and have found that there are several style named this.

- There is a Tang Dynasty era Hong Quan practiced by their military along with a type of Pao Chui. Sometimes this style is called Long Fist Tong Bei, but it is not related to Qi or Shi Tong Bei.
- There is a Hong Quan that was practiced all along the Yellow River that was derived from the 6 Step Boxing set (which is also mentioned in General Qi Chi's famous book).
-There is Shanxi Hong Quan
-There is Denfang village Hong Quan
- There is Shaolin Hong Quan (Xiao, Da, and Lao Hong Quan sets) that comes from Zhao Kwang Yin.
- There is Shaolin Hong Quan sets that are from 1200s that come from Li Sou (of bai Yi Feng and Jue Yuan fame).
- There is Louyang Hong Quan
- There is Shandong Cha Quan system's Hong Quan
- There is Shandong Shaolin Hong Quan
- There is Shandong Ming Tai Tzu Hong Quan done by Ming Dynasty military (composed of sets named Xiao Hong, Da Hong, and Tiger Claw).

10 different Hong Quan stlyes. They are all different from each other and also there has been some interaction between these depending on the lineage.

Next, can you read Chinese? If so, please read these articles on Song and Ming Tai TZu Hong Quan,
They are all by that researcher, tell me what you think.

http://www.wushu2008.cn/viewthread.p...a=page%3D4
http://www.tanglangquan.net/Html/Art...102180940.html
http://www.tanglangquan.net/Html/Art...102181121.html
http://www.tanglangquan.net/Html/Art...102181332.html
http://www.tanglangquan.net/Html/Art...102181643.html

http://www.wulinzhi.com/other-chinese-martial-arts/2494

[Sal Canzonieri]

here's another great article with tons of information
about the various Hong Quan style and how they compare:

http://shaolinwushuyuan.51.net/ywlw/2.htm

[bredmond812]

hey sal,

those links from your first post 不行。 怎么办?

B Red

[r.(shaolin)]

Okay, first, everyone has to stop bothering to mention modern public show Shaolin cause it is just a circus act, it has not bearing on anything anyone is concerned with.

I'm not sure what you are saying here. But now that you bring this up IMO the "this is for show' and 'not what we really do' is just a 'red flag' (no pun intended) that there is a lot of guess work going on at Shaolin.

I am only concerned with the sets that all the oldest monks have passed on to Shi De Gen, Shi De Yang, Shi De Gian, Shi Se Yuan, the two Liu's, and so on.

As I said most of the martial arts these monks comes from various lay sources not a single lineage. take Shi De Gen, one of his teachers, Wu Shan lin was a layman. Yes yes I know that the claim is that Shan lin's father was once a Shaolin monk. Be that as it may, this lineage actually has very few sets. Shi De Gen was a martial art enthusiast and learned much of his material from other sources - in other words its a mixed bag. As I mentioned in another post somewhere, this is true for the other 'old' monks as well. Most of these people learned after the 1920's. So in a matter of speaking its not that old. All in all it makes for dicy research. I can buy that all this material is a good sampling of what was still around the region in the late 70's but to my mind it's one source and certain not a comprehensive nor a definitive one.

The only reason to bring this up is to make clear that I take what comes out of Shaolin today with salt.

There is no use bothering with any other things that "Shaolin" circus group does. ALL THESE OLD lineages, indeed do "The Hong Quan before 1900 was known in Shaolin within two sets, the Shaolin Xiao hongquan and Shaolin Da hongquan. " I have documentation of these sets, and have learned them, this Da Hong Quan
is actually the Lao Jia Quan,

As per my other post, i would agree with Huang Baoshan's (黄寶珊 -1905-1998)
view of this Hong Quan (see my post: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...t=47251&page=3).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1h8pyH7Q3Y
also done by a layman in the early 80's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24Nqt...elated&search=

I am assuming that this article also referes to the above set.
http://shaolinwushuyuan.51.net/ywlw/2.htm

Tell me something about Lao Jia Quan and its history. . . any video clips on the net around?

many people do not know that. This other Da Hong Quan that people often see is the 6 Roads of Da Hong Quan. What Huang didn't know (realized, whatever) is that there is the Xiao Hong Quan (that everyone is familiar with) then these 6 Roads of Da Hong Quan, and then there is Lao Hong Quan, they are all from Zhao Kuang Yin's Song Hong Quan, that he passed to Shaolin at some point.

Second, Shaolin Quan means all the various long fist styles practiced throughout Henan Province that was once derived from the early sets created by the martial guards at Shaolin under Fu Ju's supervision, such as Song Tai Tzu Chang Quan.

There is a series of signature moves that come from this set and if they are not found in a style's sets, then they are NOT Shaolin Quan, but some other kind of long fist.

As I pointed out in another forum, Shaolin sets have not only signature movements but a signature structure.

I't s a silly question / statement in the first place.

Well, I;m bored of this topic, I would like to discuss Shaolin history / forms, etc with people who would like to do so,

So, I am starting a new thread on Hong Quan, and please if you want something to contribute answer that thread, thanks!

No offense to anyone meant, please

As far as Hong Quan sure I would love to chat about Zhao Kuangyin aka. Taizu vs Zhu Yanzhang aka. Taizu and 紅拳 vs 洪拳. If you're still into it.

r.

[PangQuan]

Here is an old thread where I got a lot of info from Sal and RD in partial relation to what you're bringing up.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...hlight=da+hong

check it out, maybe some info you might want. several pages though....

[Sal Canzonieri]

I'm not sure what you are saying here. But now that you bring this up IMO the "this is for show' and 'not what we really do' is just a 'red flag' (no pun intended) that there is a lot of guess work going on at Shaolin.


As I said most of the martial arts these monks comes from various lay sources not a single lineage. take Shi De Gen, one of his teachers, Wu Shan lin was a layman. Yes yes I know that the claim is that Shan lin's father was once a Shaolin monk. Be that as it may, this lineage actually has very few sets. Shi De Gen was a martial art enthusiast and learned much of his material from other sources - in other words its a mixed bag. As I mentioned in another post somewhere, this is true for the other 'old' monks as well. Most of these people learned after the 1920's. So in a matter of speaking its not that old. All in all it makes for dicy research. I can buy that all this material is a good sampling of what was still around the region in the late 70's but to my mind it's one source and certain not a comprehensive nor a definitive one.

The only reason to bring this up is to make clear that I take what comes out of Shaolin today with salt.

As per my other post, i would agree with Huang Baoshan's (黄寶珊 -1905-1998)
view of this Hong Quan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1h8pyH7Q3Y
also done by a layman in the early 80's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24Nqt...elated&search=

I am assuming that this article also referes to the above set.
http://shaolinwushuyuan.51.net/ywlw/2.htm

Tell me something about Lao Jia Quan and its history. . . any video clips on the net around?






As a pointed out in another forum, Shaolin sets have not only signature movements but a signature structure.



As far as Hong Quan sure I would love to chat about Zhao Kuangyin aka. Taizu vs Zhu Yanzhang aka. Taizu and 紅拳 vs 洪拳. If you're still into it.

r.

Because we don't have time machines, I am interested in the sets themselves, how they are related, if so, he one seems to evolve from another, etc.
How there seem to be families of sets that seem to go together because they share so many movements, etc.
Many times there are nei gong sets that also appear connected to these sets as well.

Right now, I trust Shi De Gen and all the others that have looked at the various hand copied Shaolin manuals and what sets these books show. I find a coherency in them.
You can see how nei gongs like 6 Harmony Gong, Chan Yuan 8 Gong, Luohan 13 Gong, Rou Gong, Xin Yi Ba, and these sets all seem to have a relationship to each other:
Rou Quan sets, Xiao/Da/Lao Hong Quan, TZ Chang Quan, Tong Bi Quan, Pao Quan/Pao Chui, and any others like these.
The theory/body mechanics/postures/movements, etc etc etc all work together in this family of sets.

But so what if the lineages are from lay people? They more than likely should be considering how many in Shaolin's history people came and went and the place opened and closed and so on. I think that is more likely where you would find sets that have been preserved for hundreds of years (to make an anology: Montreal French still uses old phrases and words from Old French from the 1600s, Parisian French is very modern sounding and have many new words and phrases. Pomme Fritte is modern french, Patat Fritte is old french, much closer to Latin, since Italian also says Patate Fritti. Hope I made myself clear)

I am interested in discussing the possible evolution of these "Shaolin" sets and how they compare and contrast with each other and other sets from other related or not styles (tai ji, long fist, etc ) from other places in China. Case in point: I was observing an Emei set called 7 Star Fist, from the Zhao Men Sect (named so because these sets came there during the time of Zhao Kuang Yin in Song Dynasty). I noticed that this set was very much like Hawk Step Fist from Shanxi Hong Quan. One of these articles stated that a teacher from Emei went to Shanxi and taught these forms there, and the school he left behind to 4 of his students mixed these sets with their Shanxi Hong Quan sets. Hence the set being pretty much the same between emei and shanxi. See? Interesting, and historical.

----------------

About those Da Hong Quan sets you linked to.
That is the standard Da Hong Quan Yi Lu sets.
It is not the same as the Da Hong Quan set that is called Lao Jia Hong Quan.
Da Hong Quan/Lao Jia Hong Quan set is a more advanced version of Xiao Hong Quan set. The Xiao hong quan is simple and consists of 36 postures. The Da Hong Quan/Lao Jia Hong Quan set contains all these moves plus more to make 64/72 postures/movements, and the moves in common are done much more complex and deeper understanding.

Da Hong Quan (as seen in the videos, sets 1 to 6) are also part of Zhao Kuang Yin's Hong Quan series that he gave to Shaolin, but they are of a different methodology (though they also contain the Xiao hong quan movements within them). They are a sum total of Zhao KY's techniques that he had learned in his life.
As stated in those links to articles that i posted.

I have a copy also of another series of Hong Quan sets from Shaolin that come from the Li Sou/Bai Yu Feng tradion, and they are noting like these sets at all.
I should look and compare them to Shanxi hong quan though, since Bai was from Shanxi originally. But it is Li Sou that gave Shaolin these sets as a gift (so they are from outside).

------------------------------------------------
YES< of course I would like to discuss Song TZ Hong Quan vs Ming TZ Hong Quan!

What can you tell me about Ming TZ Hong Quan?
Is it in any way related or derived from Song TZ Hong Quan?
Is it completely different and if so what styles is it derived from in Shandong?

Also, the style in Shandong known as Plumflower, it is a series of sets, the ones that Yang Jing Ming teaches and others. Where do these sets come from?
THey do two Tai Tzu Quan sets (yi and er lu).
People are telling me that these two TZ sets are unrelated to Song TZ, that they are Ming TZ sets, an amalgamation of Shandong martial arts.

Any info would be great, thanks!

[B-Rad]

Most of this discusion is waaaaay over my head, but have any of you seen the Wudang Hong Quan (vcd offered on http://www.plumpub.com). Just curious what that's derived from...

[Sal Canzonieri]

Most of this discusion is waaaaay over my head, but have any of you seen the Wudang Hong Quan (vcd offered on http://www.plumpub.com). Just curious what that's derived from...

I have seen that set (I have the vcd), well it looks like basic Hong Quan seen in Hebei and Shandong Province.
Hong Quan simply means flowing boxing meaning that the movements are all to flowing one after the other so that it overwhelms to opponent like a flood.

So, Hong Quan is in a lot of unrelated styles, just like there are many different tong bei quan too, it's all just basic long fist.

There might be a connection to another style's hong quan, could be, I don't know right now.
Maybe someone else knows?

[DRleungjan]

Hello Sal,

Forgive my ignorance on the subject. I find it extremely interesting however. I would like to ask you a question if you don't mind:

The Siu Lam Hung Kyun sets that you mention on this thread, have they or did they influence any of the southern arts at one point or another in their history of development?


Just curious.

[Shaolin Master]

Sal,

Could you clarify your question? Somehow in amongst all that I did not catch it.
Yes, there are many Hongquan some related some not, but pretty straightforward.

e.g. to some I could see:

Yang Jwingming's things are derived from the Nanjing Guoshu Assoc. (combined from Hebei and Shandong Masters' arts). which then was taken to Taiwan.

The Emei qixing set is from Zhaomen (of the 8 men of Emei)....it was derived from Zhili (Hebei) and Shanxi Martial arts so of course related to Shanxi and Hebei arts.

Shanxi Hongquan is itself a combination of arts.........

etc....

Regards
Wu Chanlong

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hello Sal,

Forgive my ignorance on the subject. I find it extremely interesting however. I would like to ask you a question if you don't mind:

The Siu Lam Hung Kyun sets that you mention on this thread, have they or did they influence any of the southern arts at one point or another in their history of development?


Just curious.

Well, the answer is directly and indirectly.

A lot of your question I have answered here at my site:

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle14.htm

But, also Ming Tai Tzu Hong Quan is what the Ming military did, their three main sets were Xiao (small) Hong Quan, Da (large) Hong Quan, and Tiger Claw.

Read my LONG southern KF history article on that site and you will see how this Tiger Claw entered into Fujian because of people who were stationed at a Ming Army Garrison before escaping to the south when the Qing dynasty started.

All you want to know and more is written there.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal,

Could you clarify your question? Somehow in amongst all that I did not catch it.
Yes, there are many Hongquan some related some not, but pretty straightforward.

e.g. to some I could see:

Yang Jwingming's things are derived from the Nanjing Guoshu Assoc. (combined from Hebei and Shandong Masters' arts). which then was taken to Taiwan.

The Emei qixing set is from Zhaomen (of the 8 men of Emei)....it was derived from Zhili (Hebei) and Shanxi Martial arts so of course related to Shanxi and Hebei arts.

Shanxi Hongquan is itself a combination of arts.........

etc....

Regards
Wu Chanlong

Thanks, well I have these questions:

Just what the heck is Shanxi Hong Quan? Where did they get all these sets from? I have had a hard time investigating this right now.
Is is Shaolin derived? How old is it?
I know that some of their sets came from Emei, but what about the others?

What can you tell me about Ming TZ Hong Quan?
Is it in any way related or derived from Song TZ Hong Quan at all?
I think not, I think it is more like Hong Gar's type of Hong Quan.
Is it completely different and if so what styles is it derived from?

Also, the style in Shandong known as Plumflower, it is a series of sets, the ones that Yang Jing Ming teaches and others. They do two Tai Tzu Quan sets (yi and er lu). Where do these sets come from?
People are telling me that these two TZ sets are unrelated to Song TZ, that they are an amalgamation of Shandong martial arts.
thanks

[DRleungjan]

Well, the answer is directly and indirectly.

A lot of your question I have answered here at my site:

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle14.htm

But, also Ming Tai Tzu Hong Quan is what the Ming military did, their three main sets were Xiao (small) Hong Quan, Da (large) Hong Quan, and Tiger Claw.

Read my LONG southern KF history article on that site and you will see how this Tiger Claw entered into Fujian because of people who were stationed at a Ming Army Garrison before escaping to the south when the Qing dynasty started.

All you want to know and more is written there.

Ah...many thanks I will read in detail.

[Shaolin Master]

I will have more detail on Hongquan ...when I get around to filling that space on http://www.satirio.com/ma/home.html but with my recent country move it will be a few more months before I start updating it all again......anyways.

Shanxi Hongquan:

Earliest records are from the Song Dynasty, it was called Xijia Quan (West Family Boxing) and later in the Wei period was renamed as Hongquan. It was supposedly due to the whole Zhao Taizu Hongquan 32 Postures ..... (which in the manuscript contains a lot of grammar commesurate with the dialect of Shanxi)

In the olden days it was said (Dong Qiang Xi Gun) - [East Spear and West Staff], it was also said (Dong Cha, Zhi Chuo, Xi Hong) - [ East (Shandong) practices Cha (quan), Zhi (Hebei) practices Chuo (Jiao) and the West practices Hong (Quan) ]

In the Qing dynasty the style was practiced by many both in Shanxi but also in Hebei etc....There were 4 well known masters that were responsible for the great propagation of the art ....these were Sanyuan's Yaozi 'Swallow' Gaosan (Master Gao Zhankui), Lin Tong county's Heihu 'Black Tiger' Xingsan (Master Xing Fuke), Tong Guan's county's E Hu 'Hungry Tiger' Susan .....etc.....they spread the art all over China...and the art became known as different brances such as Gao Family, Zhao Family and Xi Family (as per past)....etc as a side note Emei Zhaomen (is also known as Sanyuan pai..because it came from Shanxi Hongquan). Anyways it is also thought that Shaolin Jueyuan (Baiyufeng) had studied some Shanxi arts and passed on versions of basic Hongquan to Shaolin.

However...the style through time absorbed the features of other schools of chinese martial arts and as a result Shanxi Hongquan is a compilation of many arts allbeit with the Hongquan at its core. Some of the styles to which it encompassed include: Hongquan, Paoquan, Jiuquan, Huaquan, Tongbei, Ditang etc....this all resulted in the one hundred or so forms that it has developed through time.

...anyways that is Shanxi Hongquan for now.....

Kind Regards,
Wu Chanlong

[Shaolin Master]

Again, later in my http://www.authenticshaolin.com site I will place information regarding Shandong Shaolin. This style is derive from the old Fuyu Shaolin and is the same style of Gu Ruzhang (i.e. Northern Shaolin) and others in Shandong and Jiangsu provinces (though movements and forms change with time the methodology all similar). This style was practiced by many of the Nanjing Guoshu Assoc. (as was Chaquan, Liuhequan etc)....and the resultant re-developed forms including the Taizuquan's etc had influence from that style (which Taiwan Li Maoching Yang Jwing Ming etc teach as Shaolin Longfist...etc)

The other Style known as Shandong Meihuaquan is yet different again and it influenced the Hao Family Praying Mantis ....sets such as Yuejiachui, xiaohuyan, heihuquan etc......

Kind Regards
Wu Chanlong