Tai Chi Mantis

[acuboy]

Hi Everyone

Does anyone have any experience with Tai Chi Praying Mantis? My understanding is that it is one of the four major systems of Mantis kung fu. Does anyone know how it differs from the other forms, such as 7 star, 8 step, etc.?

Here's a link with a little info:
http://www.taichimantis.com/history.html

take care

[mantis108]

Greetings acuboy,

The style in question is generally known as Chiu Chuk Kai Tai Chi Praying Mantis (CCK TCPM) which is the style that I practice. In fact, I had the good fortune to study with Grandmaster Chiu in HK during the late 80s.

Here's an article that I wrote on my site:

Dynamics of CCK TCPM

I have also put up some videos of our style in the CCK TCPM video thread. So Please check it out and free feel to post your questions.

Regards

Mantis108

[jimdimag]

Hello,

Good question, and a tough one to answer.

Before I offer my comments, I wanted to give you some input about my experience, so you can judge the value of my post.

I studied with Sifu Paul Eng for about 5 years and was exposed to both 7Star and TaiChi Praying Mantis. I learned about 20 7Star forms and about 5 TaiChi Mantis forms (Bong Bo, Upper 8 Elbow, Lower 8 Elbow, 6 Harmony Palm, Jeet Gun Quen and a 2-Man staff form). Prior to training with Sifu Eng, I had done a variety of karate style and touched briefly on HunGar kung-fu. With this background I consider myself an amateur with a lot still to learn.
My focus was about 80% on forms (perfecting the moves, timing, etc…) and about 20% on applications.

Regarding the differences, I found 7Star to be very direct and more transparent than the TaiChi. Perhaps the TaiChi founders were better at hiding their techniques in their forms, I’m not sure, but the TaiChi mantis seemed more complex and the movements were more complicated. This could point to my lack of knowledge of the 7Star applications, but this was just what I noticed as I trained the forms. I think you can also notice this if you watch the forms. It was very difficult for me to watch a TaiChi form and imagine the application, while with the 7 star I could usually imagine at least one application for a given posture.

On another issue, when performing the TaiChi forms I found myself hoping and jumping more and, in general, was lighter on my feet. 7 Star was very linear and seemed a bit “stiff” and the TaiChi seemed more free flowing.

Finally, the TaiChi seemed to contain a greater variety of techniques / moves as compared to the 7 star. Again, this may have to do with my lack of knowledge of the applications, or it could point to the work that the founders did in developing the forms.

I hope that my comments helped. Good luck with your training.

Best regards,
Jim DiMaggio

[acuboy]

Hi Jim and Mantis 108

Thanks a lot for the replies. I spent a good portion of yesterday looking at videos of mantis on youtube. The next step is to go and visit the school. Tai Chi Mantis appears to have a much more beautiful style in its movements, but how does it fair as a fighting style?

thanks
acuboy

[mantis108]

A good observation, Jimdimag.

Hi Acuboy,

You are most welcome. I believe a Caveat should be in effect. Not all CCK TCPM schools place the same emphasis on the same aspect of the style at this point. We are working towards a more common approach at this point. Standardizing, a word I loath to use, is a step towards bringing quality control to ensure the style won't fall into waterdown situation.

Sau Fa/Shou Fa application is key to CCK TCPM. If you find a school that claims to be CCK TCPM but they don't practice much Sau Fa, then I believe you are not being taught the core of the style. There are at least 64 Sau Fa not including all the counters. Most schools would teach about 30 or so with counters at least.

Just a thought.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[acuboy]

Hi Mantis 108

Once again, thanks for the info. This goves me something to think about as I evaluate the school. Below is a link from the school. I was wondering if you had heard of this sifu or had any impressions based upon the website.

http://www.taichimantis.com/

thanks a lot. I really only want to committ the time and energy to a quality school.

take care

acuboy

[NorthernShaolin]

This school is in the SF Bay Area, i.e. Walnut Creek, California. Sounds like you live in the S.F. Bay Area. If you do then, I highly recommend other Tai Mantis schools in the area.

If your heart is to learn Tai Chi Praying mantis then there are several highly rated Tai Mantis sifus in this area. First, if you want a very structured, traditional teacher, I highly recommend my Sihing, Paul Eng in Campbell, California. He is the most senior active Tai Mantis teacher in this area. His web site is: http://www.taimantiskungfu.com/

There is also a Tai Mantis class at Fort Mason, San Francisco, Ca., who are directly linked to Sifu William Fong. It is run by Sifu Arthur Chin, who is my classmate. This class teaches exactly what Mantis 108 was refering to. Typically once a month, Sifu Paul Eng invites SIfu Chin to his school to teach TCPM applications to his students. His e-mail address is SFMANTIS @aol.com

Then there is Sifu French at www.bayshaolin.com/ or at
http://www.chukkaitaichimantis.org/index.html

If these schools do not work out (i.e., too far from where you live) then I recommend going to the one in Walnut Creek. However, you will learn the Tai Mantis concepts that Mantis 108 talks about from the class in Fort Mason. The one in Walnut Creek should be your very last choice.

[jimdimag]

Acuboy,

I would recommend the Walnut Creek school for several reasons.

First, Sifu Wong, Lam Ling is an excellent and well respected Sifu who was trained directly with Grandmaster Chiu Chuk-Kai. I know Sifu Wong personally and have trained with him and his students on many occasions. This leads to my second reason.

The Walnut Creek school is one of the member schools in the US CCK TCPM Federation. I trained at the Campbell TaiMantis school with Sifu Paul Eng and on many occasions we would meet with the Walnut Creek school for training.

A note about the federation. Sifu Wong is one of the senior members on the board, joined by Sifu Paul Eng, whose dedication to mantis kungfu is well established, and by Sifu Huy Chiang (one of the twelve official disciples of Grandmaster Chiu Chuk-Kai). You can find out more about the federation here: http://www.chukkaitaichimantis.org/index.html

By joining the Tai Chi Mantis Institute in Walnut Creek, you would be joining a strong family. The Federation member schools meet annually at the Campbell school for a week of training. There is also the annual banquet in honor of Grandmaster Chiu Chuk-Kai with guests arriving from Vietnam and China.

It would be difficult to find a better TaiChi Mantis school in the San Francisco Bay Area. The only other one I would recommend is Sifu Eng’s school in Campbell. Having trained there myself I would pick that one first.

Best regards and good luck in your search.

Jim

[mantis108]

Hi Northern Shaolin,

Thanks for the info. Although I have communicates with some of the US TCPMers, I have not met them in person. So I don't know their curriculum or teaching style is like. This is quite helpful.

Hi Acuboy,

The Sifu and website in question is Sifu Wong Lam Ling, who is a senior of mine. I have heard his name mentioned by Grandmaster Chiu a few times. As I said to Northern Shaolin that I haven't met most of the US TCPM contingent in person. So regretably, I can not give you any information on Sifu Wong Lam Ling material. BTW a side note that Tai Mantis is an organization formed by Kam Yuen and Paul Eng, who have been to HK and learn from GM Chiu. It is not the style of CCK TCPM per se. There are other CCK TCPM Sifus in North America (ie Sifu Lee Hao Yin, Sifu Galen Fok besides myself come to mind) that haven't joined the Tai Mantis organization or the US CCK TCPM federation for various reasons.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[NorthernShaolin]

jimdimag,

I have nothing against Wong Sifu because the CCK TCPM is ONE BIG FAMILY. I'm only agreeing with mantis 108 and recommending the Sifus that re-enforces Shou Fa principles and applications more so than Wong Sifu's school.

I believe all of the Sifus I mention are part of the federation and attend the yearly functions. In fact you more than likely have meet all of them, maybe including me, since you learned from Sifu Eng. I've known Sifu Eng for more than 40 years.

[jimdimag]

Northern,

My post was not a rebuttle and didn't mean anything. Actually, I wrote the post offline before I saw your post, so it wasn't in response to you or anything of the sort.

I'm not familiar with Sifu Chin or I might have mentioned him. I've been away from the Bay Area for about 4 years now so I'm not up to date with the goings-on at Sifu Eng's school or any such collaboration with Sifu Chin.

I just wanted to share my input regarding Sifu Wong.

Thanks,
Jim

[acuboy]

Once again, big thanks to Mantis 108 and Jim

I'm going to check out all the options you guys have given me and I'll pay close attention to the curriculum taught. I really appreciate it and I'm looking forward to making my new year's resolution a reality.

take care