(Unarmed) Grappling Vs. Knife

[WinterPalm]

These pics are the result of an attempt by a grappling trained police officer to deal with an assailant armed with a knife. They are quite graphic.








Obviously submission, regardless of method, is the ideal place to put an attacker who has a knife. This can be done via strikes or chokes, locks, holds, etc.

Intercepting an attack can provide split seconds to either fully engage in a grappling counter, or a striking counter.

A striking counter can attack weak, soft structures such as the eyes, the throat, back of the head. (And yes, if people can spend hours perfecting anything, they too can get pin point accuracy using simple training methods: non-rhythmic focus pads, a ball on a string, a double end boxing bag, etc). Once eyesight or breathing are deeply disrupted, control and restraint can be exercised.

A grappling counter can restrain the knife hand and move through to various limb and neck holds including full out takedown. Once control is obtained, striking can commence. One could suggest that within striking range is within stabbing range and grappling range...

The structures of weakness cannot be trained to withstand blunt trauma and force...Can one continue to fight while blind? While unable to breathe?
The relative leverage and strength of a man can be beyond what appearances suggest as well as the factor drugs can play in enhancing strength: ie cocaine, speed, PCP, etc.

What is your line of defense? Level of preperation? Perceived opinions on this topic? Disputes to the outline above? How does this relate to the responsibility of a police officer (To use restraint and submission) versus that of a citizen (Not in the public eye under scrutiny of ethic committees, and less likely to find criticism for using foul tactics)?
Is a combination of the two ideal? Or does one approach favour your style and personal attributes?
Does your art deal with interception using forearm strikes, restraints? Obviously weaving, ducking, movement play a huge factor...but covering up does not.

[PlumDragon]

In a multiple attacker scenario, of course, this type of thing is excusable and probably unavoidable but in a single attacker scenario the cop should be trained to better handle this.

And when is the last time youve played with a chalked, electrified, or live blade? On the mat?

In sparring, it doesnt take much to get cut; it takes less in a real altercation...

[SevenStar]

just as they make bulletproof vests, they also make cut and stab resistant varieties. IMO, all cops should have one at all times.

[Asia]

Was this guy off duty? How did the knife get past his BP vest? Those cuts are too deep to have gone throw a vest.

Need more info on this situation.

I got mugged in Miami several years ago and was knifed but grappling actually saved me form further damage. Trying to strike a knife weilder is an easy way of getting your arms and legs sliced up but with luck getting in to control the arm, disarm (hopefully) and get the hell out of dodge.

[Knifefighter]

Interesting topic...

I'll be back...

[WinterPalm]

Was this guy off duty? How did the knife get past his BP vest? Those cuts are too deep to have gone throw a vest.

Need more info on this situation.

I got mugged in Miami several years ago and was knifed but grappling actually saved me form further damage. Trying to strike a knife weilder is an easy way of getting your arms and legs sliced up but with luck getting in to control the arm, disarm (hopefully) and get the hell out of dodge.

I'll try to get more information. These photos were send to my Sifu who works in the justice department via a police officer he is in frequent contact with.

I agree that striking can get you cut on the arm...how does any such wrestling technique stand up to that? Get a partner and try any such takedown, submission, or takedown... if they can touch you with even just one hand...that is a knife.

The reality of it is that incapacitating someone via strikes in a situation such as one like this is your best preperation. Control the position, use angles, utilize pin-point striking, subdue the arm...quick reflexes, agility, timing, strong lower arm abilities...these are all essential in control and submission.

I won't doubt the knife fighting abilities of FMA...but how advanced is their open hand defense? Kung Fu specializes in defense almost by definition by virtue of its buddhist/taoist origins.

I'm not sure if he was wearing a BP vest. Point is, he was well-trained in grappling and it did not stand up to the attack. Not saying that there is no ability in grappling, but people promote it in such a fervor that examples like this offer a stark contrast to the supremacy of wrestling/grappling.

[David Jamieson]

Those pics come from this video.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...86003342147853

I don't know if they're cops or not. THey came out of a video presentation (as linked) and in that video there is no indication of who these victims are. I think the confusion comes from the content of the video which has at the beginning information about a seminar given to some LEO's and how the percentages were very low in them realizing what was going on when a knife was introduced without their prior knowledge.

the actual photos are from a hospital somewhere I would guess, but in all honesty, I personally don't think they are cops for the reasons mentioned IE: there aren't many cops out there that aren't wearing pounds on the street.

[David Jamieson]

p.s Unarmed vs a knife = a very good chance you will be cut. Against an experienced knife handler, for sure you will get cut. Regardless of whatever it is you train.

[Knifefighter]

The reality of it is that incapacitating someone via strikes in a situation such as one like this is your best preperation. Control the position, use angles, utilize pin-point striking, subdue the arm...quick reflexes, agility, timing, strong lower arm abilities...these are all essential in control and submission.

LOL... someone is brainwashed... and hasn't trained realistically against a blade.

Point is, he was well-trained in grappling and it did not stand up to the attack.

LOL @ this being a "grappler". There is no evidence one way or the other that he was either a striker or grappler.

[Knifefighter]

Assuming those are real and not Romoshopped....
If that guy was a cop, he sure wasn’t wearing a vest. I’m guessing he might not have even been wearing a shirt, because it is hard to get those kinds of slashes through clothing.

As far as grappling unarmed vs. knife, probably not something you want to do if you have full options. However, one doesn’t always have full options.

Ideally, one has seen the blade beforehand and has time to make space, use barriers, draw ones own weapon and/or grab an improvised one. Trying to strike empty-handed against a blade is just as stupid as trying to grapple.

It is not really true that a trained guy will not let you see the blade. He will if he is confident in his abilities, but really doesn’t’ want to fight. It’s the guy who wants to kill you, trained or otherwise, who will attack and conceal the blade.

Close quarter attacks where the knife is not seen until the last minute, or not seen at all, are the most deadly and the ones that end up in grappling situations. Once grappling range is reached, probably the most important consideration is to control the knife hand. Trained guys are good a switching to the other hand, and it is important to know how not let the opponent do this.

Since standing grappling gives relatively little control over the opponent, if an immediate disarm cannot be done, it can be advantageous to take the opponent down to the ground (still controlling the knife) where positional control and dominance can be used to more effectively achieve a disarm. With good ground control positioning achieved, the opponent will be completely helpless once the disarm is achieved.

[David Jamieson]

there's plenty of drills.

I agree with KF. Contain the knife arm, take the weilder down and break his structure while doing it and keep that knife arm locked up tight until you can go for a disarm.

One of the drills (because there are many) that I've taken part in was called x cuts. where x = a number chosen beforehand as to how many times the attacker has to hit you with the knife before the drill ends.

drills ends when you end the assault or the attacker has made all the hits with the blade.

our number was 30. 9 out of 10 guys when doing this drill got hit 30 times.

techs that worked. underhook, pull the assailant in and down, then look for a disarm technique, focus on the blade arm don't worry about getting punched and watch that other hand when you can.

forward push kicks in a relentless fashion has some good effect too.

and ultimately, escape was the most successful technique.

Anyway, I live in Toronto, so my problem would be more along the lines of stray bullets from handguns popping me. lol. *knock on wood*
I would think that the same would hold true in most large urban areas.

[The Willow Sword]

Great Video. Hopefully it will put some reality in the minds of those who think that they have it down with respect to defending against a knife. even an inexperienced knife weilder can seriously hurt you and even kill you.

Best defense against a knife is distance and a longer weapon(at least you have a chance when you have a longer weapon like a baton (hehe or a longer knife) lets not forget our friendly firearm. but as the vid shows the closer you are to the attacker the less likely you will be able to draw point and shoot without getting fileted.

Hope NONE gets cut like that guy did in those pictures. Hey im gonna go watch "The Hunted" again. i love that movie.

Tommy Lee Jones is the shiznit
TWS

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Assuming those are real and not Romoshopped....

they're real as far as i know .... there was a thread on ogrish a while back about them and if i remember right the guy was a prisoner and not a cop or guard. i could be wrong though .... let me see what i can dig up.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

http://www.ogrish.com/archives/deep_...b_24_2006.html


interesting take on the photos ...

Originally Posted by Naughty Kangaroo
Accord to what I heard on this forum, if this is a prison fight result. The person was attacked with something handheld. So it can't be a machete. If it was a machete, his back cut won't be all curvy.

So it must be a really sharp shiv or something similar held in ice pick manner. I am prett SURE that his chest was attack first because many people would lay down and cover when scared. So it's likely someone righty was the attacker. You notice that the stabbing point is thicker then as the person slice and pull the knife out, the cut get thinner.

So if my theory is corect.

The victim would get cut across chest first. Then he would try to turn to run but get cut on side. Then the victim would probably lay down to try cover himself up. The attacker would be standing at victim's head and make a deep cut from below shoulder blade to upper back then cut upperback twice before running away.

I am SURE the victim was face down during the knife attack because how could he have recieved the large one on back then two more on upperback if he wasn't face down?

thread about it: http://forum.ogrish.com/showthread.p...ighlight=knife

[hung-le]

Willowsword basically stole my thunder…



As some of you know a train a lot with the blade...have been for about twenty years.....
Fending off an attack by an experienced knife fighter is really **** near impossible… At practice, I haven’t seen anyone who could easily grapple and submit an experience knife fighter…even if you do ..it is really hard not to get killed in the process… … And always…in a knife fight ,armed or unarmed “You will get stabbed! It’s going to happen! …But you must be the one to decide where…if it’s up to the attacker,,,, you are dead…

If you don’t act he’s just going to carve you up This will take about a split second for him to do this (so its not like you got time to plan out your defense…)… Hell, some good knife fighters won’t wait to soften up the target… They’ll come in attacking with two feet kicking and punching…stabbing and cutting to the vital areas

Personally, I’ve never experienced a knife attack (I fended of a mugger once but that is a different story) I have a friend who has witnessed a knife attack …it resulted in a fatality. The knife attack came out of the blue. Guy “A” basically walked up to Guy B in a club (Guy “B” who was unaware was distracted) Guy “A” pulled the knife and began to stab… reality is ....when attacked with a weapon you usually never see it comming..... (he lives in Detroit near 8 mile if you’re wondering..)

It’s been my experience and the experience of others that I hang with to say… the proximity dictates the proper action.

If one is in close, I can’t think of a better art than a grappling art You have to control the knife! However if there is space between you and the person wielding the knife (if he knows what he’s doing…you using a bridging technique to get close will usually get you killed…best to keep space in between you and him, through effective space, you are controlling the knife…that is the best defense….

Usually this is done with unorthodox techniques (such as backing up to a wall and kicking like mad…sliding down the wall till you are on the floor…the wall will cut down some of the attack angles and the fact that the aggressor has to bend over to get at you puts him in range of your feet which can take a lot of punishment …yes...this is unorthodox. but so is a lot of practical unarmed knife defenses…Don't be fooled by BS

If experienced law men (who have there guns drawn) get killed by inexperienced thugs with knives…. Those of you who think you can go toe to toe using only your hands against someone who is skilled with a blade…better rethink your premise… this goes for everyone…its a fight you probably will lose even if you win…..