What is the point of Tao Lu? (aka forms, kata, etc.)

[Invisible-fist]

orms were like books and they were (and still are) revered as sacred information specific to the style. This is when traditional forms actually carried the mystical codes, trial and tested techniques (re: experience), tactics and strategies, etc. Now it has all rouined by modern Wushu, new age hippies ideas and XMA the likes. So... now is just a bunch of mindless acrabatic that string together. No wonder most people think form sucks these days. How can anyone teach form properly without classical training? So we might as well give it all up.

Wushu players are elite athletes that can jump rings around you. They've specialized in forms performance and they do it extremely well. Most TCMAers can't do forms OR fight.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

A lot of generalizations, here... the single most important factor in forms or sparring is the student's intentions.. the student will absorb the value inherent in forms or fighting according to the student's inclinations.. what wisdom exists in forms will not be evident to those that don't agree with it.. the wisdom of sparring will not be evident to the timid or inattentive casual "player"...

Certainly there is wisdom in the forms, but is is only "potential".. that potential manifests its reality in the testing of controlled combat and in the unfortunate real-life encounters.. first you read the textbook, then you take the test..

Be well..

[David Jamieson]

Wushu players are elite athletes that can jump rings around you. They've specialized in forms performance and they do it extremely well. Most TCMAers can't do forms OR fight.

dude, you're jusy sounding infantile, bitter and terribly uninformed in these last couple fo posts. Did you sh1t the bed or something this morning?

[mantis108]

Wushu players are elite athletes that can jump rings around you. They've specialized in forms performance and they do it extremely well. Most TCMAers can't do forms OR fight.

I will take the bait....

the "elite" athletes can dance all day for all I care. Sure you float like a butterfly if at all that but can you sting like a bee? If Modern Wushu can fight and is actually teaching or preparing someone for a fight why the hell they need to introduce San Shou the sport? Simple, it's because Modern Wushu is nothing but flowery fists and embroided legs period. This is fragmentation by sportification 101.

Tell me what the hell would this amazing "elite" athletes knows about traditional knowledge or culture? Tell me what do he or she knows about your basic Wu Bu Quan (5 step fist)? What is the point to this so call fundation building form? Is there a theme to it that actually tells the exponent something about himself and move him further down a path of mindy, body and spirit development? What is the theory behind it?

Now ask a not so "elite" traditional Kung Fu person about (oh I don't know) may be the concept of "San Zhan" (3 battles) which is a form that is quite common to most southern styles. The very basic concept of Qi and Chinese worldview is already being taught the very first day not to mention that you get the benefit of the style of fighting approach as well. Too complicated? How about one step three punches? That's easily enough.

So please go ahead and do your dance routine and I will also encourage you to take up Ballet or whatever dance that float your boat for your "cross training" (pun definitely intended). Who knows may be you can all of a sudden become enlighten by the nutcracker saber dance and create a Wushu nutcracker saber fencing school (then I promise I would not be laughing 'cause my jaw will be dropped and locked solid!) All the best to your athletic prowess, my friend.

How a good day!

Mantis108

[SevenStar]

"Forms are only a small part of Kung Fu training."

"But many schools ONLY train forms"

"Well at MY school we....."

"OK. But many schools ONLY train forms, so you can't generalize"

"Well at MY school we..."

In internet land everybody trains alive spars, full contact, and chews glass for breakfast. In the real world Kung fu training is often --not always--forms based or forms exclusive. There seems to be massive collective denial on this issue.

personally, I chew nails for breakfast. Glass is too delicate.

[PangQuan]

man, you gotta upgrade to bullets. thats some spice, yowzaa!

[SevenStar]

I almost hate to play devil's advocate in this case, but I think I see what invisible fist is getting at. a san shou guy focuses on san shou. His forms may be crud, but his fighting is top notch. the "wushu guy" focuses on form - his fighting may be cruddy, but his technique is top notch. a guy who practices forms, fighting, weapons, etc. may not be particularly good at any... he's calling such people a jack of all trades and master of none....

[Invisible-fist]

I will take the bait....

the "elite" athletes can dance all day for all I care Sure you float like a butterfly if at all that but can you sting like a bee? If Modern Wushu can fight and is actually teaching or preparing someone for a fight

Dude, nobody said that wushu can fight. Wushu isn’t FOR fighting. My point is the opposite.Attacking wushu for not fighting is like attacking Iaido for being impractical.

Heres the thing

1) Forms don’t teach you to fight.
2) Forms are still worth doing: They have cultural, aesthetic, spiritual, and health benefits. They have qualities that you wont get in other sports.

why the hell they need to introduce San Shou the sport?

Because they realized that forms and fighting were two different fields of endevour. (although they are both martial arts.) If they wanted to produce elite athletes, they had to separate the two. This was a smart decision. This way they were able to improve their fighting by adopting modern methods without losing the cultural and artistic value of forms training.

This is fragmentation by sportification 101.

Sport fighters beat “street” fighters every single time. Sport is good, it raises the level of athleticism.

Tell me what the hell would this amazing "elite" athletes knows about traditional knowledge or culture?

Quite a bit, actually. Why do you assume that wushu players don’t know Chinese culture? Most of them ARE Chinese.

Now ask a not so "elite" traditional Kung Fu person about (oh I don't know) may be the concept of "San Zhan" (3 battles) which is a form that is quite common to most southern styles.

So you’re putting down wushu for not doing a form that is not in their syllabus?

Tell me what do he or she knows about your basic Wu Bu Quan (5 step fist)?

Now you’ve stepped in it. Wu bu quan is a standard form in wushu. And they do it quite well.

Is there a theme to it that actually tells the exponent something about himself and move him further down a path of mindy, body and spirit development?

There’s PLENTY of mind, body, and spirit development in wushu.

The very basic concept of Qi and Chinese worldview is already being taught the very first day

You think there’s no qi in wushu? Try holding a swallow balance for two minutes. Ta’I Chi and the internal arts are part of wushu. Ever hear of Qi Gong master Tu Jin Sheng (the iron crotch guy)? He’s a big wushu supporter. His kids are major players and he judges tournaments. His school hosts my wushu class twice a week.

So please go ahead and do your dance routine and I will also encourage you to take up Ballet

Oooh! Snap! Wushu is like ballet and ballet is for girls – grow up! Actually I don’t think wushu is dance. It resembles dance, has a lot in common with dance, but its not dance. I think a better comparison would be to say that it’s a circus art…like tissu or arial (both of which I think are terrific art forms)

If you don’t like wushu, don’t do it. I think traditional Kung Fu is terrific (I practice it). But the TCMA community should start giving credit where it is due.

In addition to to everything I just said… wushu is MAD FUN!!

[PangQuan]

the only thing is, its one trade.

now were the martial artist also a carpenter, a painter, a potter, a police man, a banker, etc... taht would be jack of all trades....

i believe one can be well versed in fighting and form if they train hard enough, with enough time put in each day.

its all about hard work. train 8 hours a day 6 days a week, you can fill pretty well several areas in one trade.

[Invisible-fist]

the only thing is, its one trade.

now were the martial artist also a carpenter, a painter, a potter, a police man, a banker, etc... taht would be jack of all trades....

i believe one can be well versed in fighting and form if they train hard enough, with enough time put in each day.

its all about hard work. train 8 hours a day 6 days a week, you can fill pretty well several areas in one trade.

Absolutely. I agree.

[PangQuan]

heres the thing. modern sport wushu, is just that.

they dont claim to be any different. some fools may, but the real players never even think it.

they are what they are and they are better than the rest at thier art. these elite players of thier game will put anyone to shame at what they do.

thats why they dont try other venues. they are not trained for it, they are not fighters and dont claim such.

but to ridecule them for what they love to do, what they have mastered, would be the same as rideculing Johnny Cash for not being able to fight with his songs.

its silly and immature.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings.

Sport fighters beat “street” fighters every single time. Sport is good, it raises the level of athleticism.

I don't know where you live.. but, the streets around here have some pretty nasty fellows hangin' around.. i'v seen too many sportfighters (good ones too) get busted-up thinking they're "all that".. A good sport-fighter doesn't make a good street-fighter automatically.. just like the sport arenas, you have to train in the "streets" to be a good street-fighter...

Be well..

[Invisible-fist]

Greetings.

I don't know where you live.. but, the streets around here have some pretty nasty fellows hangin' around.. i'v seen too many sportfighters (good ones too) get busted-up thinking they're "all that".. A good sport-fighter doesn't make a good street-fighter automatically.. just like the sport arenas, you have to train in the "streets" to be a good street-fighter...

Be well..

Sorry, I was unclear. When I said “Street” fighters I was being sarcastic. I didn’t mean real streetfighters, I meant the guys who practice eyepokes and compliant drills on each other and won’t spar or compete because they train for TEH STR33T.

[SevenStar]

the only thing is, its one trade.

now were the martial artist also a carpenter, a painter, a potter, a police man, a banker, etc... taht would be jack of all trades....

i believe one can be well versed in fighting and form if they train hard enough, with enough time put in each day.

its all about hard work. train 8 hours a day 6 days a week, you can fill pretty well several areas in one trade.

it's one trade with several facets. so, we'll coin a new term - jack of all facets. realistically, who trains 8 hours a day, 6 days a week?

heck, most "masters" are noted for one thing, maybe two.
pan qing fu - iron palm
yang jwing ming - chin na and qigong
chang tung sheng - shuai chiao

and so on. why aren't they renowned for EVERYTHING? because there are so many facets?

[mantis108]

Dude, nobody said that wushu can fight. Wushu isn’t FOR fighting. My point is the opposite.Attacking wushu for not fighting is like attacking Iaido for being impractical.

Well, good you proclaim Wushu isn't FOR fighting not me. So in that case wouldn't it be better that Modern Wushu change the Chinese character from Wu (martial) to Wu (Dance)? That way we won't be confused and there's no need to argue for its validatity at all. As far as Iaido goes, I believe it does demostrate object cutting with its forms which contain the 4 elements of sword drawing. Now, personally, I won't want to face off with an Iaido guy with the drawn sword whether he has good form or not. Since you have said Modern Wushu isn't FOR fighting, I guess I have no point to argue about it's potential for fighting.

Heres the thing

1) Forms don’t teach you to fight.

According to the limited and brainwashed perspective of Modern Wushu perhaps. Because as you stated there is no potential for fighting in Wushu.

2) Forms are still worth doing: They have cultural, aesthetic, spiritual, and health benefits. They have qualities that you wont get in other sports.

Sorry, I think you might have confused the feel good ego masturbation in spectator sports with spirituality. If in fact Modern Wushu is a sport how is it possible that it has qualities that other sports won't get? Sport is sport or am I missing something here?

Because they realized that forms and fighting were two different fields of endevour.

Call it what you will. It's fragmentation by sportification of Chinese martial academia.

(although they are both martial arts.)

You have stated Modern Wushu isn't for fighting and it's a sport how the hack it became martial and arts again? It's like a dog that's chasing its tail. There's no end to it. Man, I think you need to sort out your terms and definitions before you start arguing any further.

If they wanted to produce elite athletes, they had to separate the two. This was a smart decision. This way they were able to improve their fighting by adopting modern methods without losing the cultural and artistic value of forms training.

The assumption about traditional training is so flaw that I don't where to begin. If that's the line your modern Wushu "coaches" selling you then so be it.

Sport fighters beat “street” fighters every single time. Sport is good, it raises the level of athleticism.

What did Bruce Lee once said? I paraphrase "Biting is a good tool in close quartered combat but don't make a plan of biting some one or it's a sure way to lose all your teeth." No sound training methodology in traditional Kung Fu that I have came across ever taught or confused the so called "street tactics" or dirty tricks as the delivery system. This is a myth that's perpetuated by Mcdojo, Mckwoon and Master wanabe. It is a stigma that legit traditional Kung Fu people has to endure.

BTW, you are right that sport is good, it does raise the level of athleticism. I never say that sport is bad. If Wushu wants to be a sport and stay as a sport that's find by me. But please don't let those Wushu brainwashed idiots to compare real and legit Kung Fu teachers to barbars, cooks, just about anyone else (not that I am class divisive or a snob). Kung Fu as an authentic Chinese martial arts is a distinct tradition that is developed and evolved since thousands of years in China. So please at least give those people some credit and respect.

Quite a bit, actually. Why do you assume that wushu players don’t know Chinese culture? Most of them ARE Chinese.

So you are telling me that you and everyone else in Wushu are Chinese? You know all things Chinese culture? Would you care to share you view on Chinese culture with us then? Why is there Buddhism in Kung Fu when clearly we can simply go with Daoism and Confucius ideas? Oh I forgot Wushu is a sport, never mind.

So you’re putting down wushu for not doing a form that is not in their syllabus?

No, I put down people who do not care to know themselves as sentient beings - where they came from, where they are at, and where they are going. I also put down people who confuse ego masturbation with spirituality. IMHO your so called Wushu syllabus is a joke if it is not a farce as pretained to teach martial arts. But then by your admission it really should be a sport program not a syllabus.

Now you’ve stepped in it. Wu bu quan is a standard form in wushu. And they do it quite well.

Doing it well means what? It's like asking kids (not saying that you are) about Hockey "what do you like about hockey?" They would say," oh I can skate hard and I can go hard at it, it's fun." "So what exactly do you like about hockey?". "I can go really really fast on skates, it's fun." And they go on and on the samething about a silly game that means nothing. So that's the same mindset in Wushu eh?

There’s PLENTY of mind, body, and spirit development in wushu.

So you are telling us. But where is the illustration? So the vague word "PLENTY" is how mind, body and spirit is developed in Wushu? Now, I am enlightened. All I have to do is to recite "PLENTY" thousands of time and I will get it in Wushu. Please, dude, if you want to argue for Modern Wushu at least put some thoughts into your reply. I am thinking we are pretty much done here.

You think there’s no qi in wushu? Try holding a swallow balance for two minutes. Ta’I Chi and the internal arts are part of wushu. Ever hear of Qi Gong master Tu Jin Sheng (the iron crotch guy)? He’s a big wushu supporter. His kids are major players and he judges tournaments. His school hosts my wushu class twice a week.

I guess David Copperfield or any member of the Circque du Solie knows Qi very well too. No offense to Master Tu, I would rather spend time on rolling around in the hay with a girl then to learn to tie my balls up for an extended period of time. Wants groin protection? Wear a cup, learn good footwork and blocks, and be aware that someone is trying to kick you in the balls.

It's very good of him to support your school. More power to you and him.

Oooh! Snap! Wushu is like ballet and ballet is for girls – grow up! Actually I don’t think wushu is dance. It resembles dance, has a lot in common with dance, but its not dance. I think a better comparison would be to say that it’s a circus art…like tissu or arial (both of which I think are terrific art forms)

point taken it's a circus art.

If you don’t like wushu, don’t do it. I think traditional Kung Fu is terrific (I practice it). But the TCMA community should start giving credit where it is due.

In addition to to everything I just said… wushu is MAD FUN!!

Let's face it and be honest. Wushu, Master Tu's specialty and not to mention the shinny trophies from the Wushu tournaments are drawing people into your school and this is why you are selling it. Just be frank, no need for beating around the bush, my friend. It's America no one would fault you on commericalism. If we have a market for Taebo or cardio Kickboxing in my area, I would have included it in my school too. But then I don't have a commerical school so...

Mantis108