The Name's of the moves in the form's

[libingshao]

WM,

I have a few of the WHF books. I will scan them for the poetic names. As others have said they arn't in most of the books but there are places that give some in either the name or the commentary as I recall.

Libingshao

[libingshao]

WM,

I have one volume #3 that has sets in the back. I found the following in a quick glance:

Cha Chui Quan Mvt.2 White Goose Opens Wings

Bai Yuan Chu Dong Mvt. Lone Wild Goose Leaves Flock


There may be more but hopefully others will offer what they have. I will look again later.

Libingshao

[K.Brazier]

The purpose of these eighteen methods are to introduce the student to the type of strikes used in the initial encounter.
They are mostly extracted from the Zhai Yao series.
You could say they are the most essential of the essential!

Becuase they are only a listing of names for the students to remember it is important that the student knows what moves the names represent.

I have often wondered if these moves were a part of what the 6 zhai yao forms were constructed from. With the information I have I do not know which came first this collection or the 6 forms.

Besides this list of 18 moves there are also similar lists of techniques with names such

Counterattacking without blocking. It is a list of moves which don't rely on blocks or defense.

Substituting blocks for strikes.
A list of moves which the block and the strike are the same, or almost the same.

While lists such as these are not all inclusive they are excellent ways for students to convert techniques and moves into principals.

Also these lists act as good mental hooks to "hang" the different methods of fighting.

Especially since there are lists with "grabs", "throws"
"hair grabs" etc..

What follows are a few of the interesting names that most people will be able to understand irrespective of style.


1. First apply the jade ring step.

2. backhand diagonal dividing coiling elbow.

3. Lightening palm and thunderclap hand.
The thunder clap hand is one way to do the clubbing strike. First comes a strike of lightening followed by a clap of thunder.

4. Interconnected breaking punch.
This is also the one step three punches drill. In one step three punches the student learnshow to connect their straight punches. The solo drill must first be perected as there is a tendancy to “punch with the elbow” which must be eliminated. This method can also be seen in the original 18 family

“I move my hands first attacking with a right (ke) strike.
My left fist does a breaking strike followed by the right fist.
Yin goes and yang returns(qu yin hui yang) continuously interconnecting.”


5. Entering with chin na. Zhang shou lei. Lightening palm.
Shiye Luan Xingfu taught Shifu to do the chin na move “old cow lays down” here.

9. Left and right taiji
This is the essential technique of breaking or defeating the central gate(po zhong men yao shou).

“Regardless if he attacks with a straight or diagonal hand. I use left and right taiji and cleave from top to bottom.”

Within explanations of Zhai Yao is said,

“Left and right two taiji. From top to bottom cleave the central line.
He attacks with his right and to my central gate.
I seal with the left and cleave with the right.
He leaks to the outer gate.
I hook with the right hand and close(bi) with the left. My right hand cleaves from his face to the bottom.”

14. Defeating weaver’s shuttle.
There is the soft and hard method for this.

“The hard defeating of weaver’s shuttle.
I attack with my right hand.
He applies weaver’s shuttle.
I turn my right palm along his face(yang zhang shun mian). My left hand divides his left elbow. My right palm strikes his left shoulder.
The soft defeating of weaver’s shuttle.
He applies weaver’s shuttle.
I go along with him and apply a right groin strike in the rear mountain climbing posture.
Or, I adhere to his hand, hook down(nian shou gou xia) and apply the weaver’s shuttle.”

16. Grasping hand enter with chin na. Immortal takes the hair.
For the solo version we can simply follow the end of first Zhai Yao.
Here is the other way to apply it,

“Application of the adhering method.
His right hand firmly grasps my right hand or neck.
I seal with the left and do right bumping elbow(zhuang) to bend his fingers.
I swiftly apply the right inner forearm(ge zhou) and strike his neck.
He blocks my elbow.
Then I can do left seal right planting elbow. The head of my fist faces down and I apply inner forearm elbow to his chest.”

17. Yin strikes yang overturns. Yang strikes yin overturns.
The first yin strike is a low or middle level punch. As soon as the opponent makes any reaction the hand flips up for a backhand strike.
The second one starts with a backhand and chops down to the ribs or thigh.

On the vid clips that Jake posted of his shifu you can see Hu Laoshi use this to distract Jake before he applies his "finishing" move.

18. Mandarin duck kick cleaving smashing hand.
This can be found in the two man form Mantis Hands.

Usually the backfist is followed by the kick. But this is practically the opposite. It is the way to start, as opposed to the way to escape.

Kevin

[WhiteMonkey]

Thank you, everyone thats some great stuff....

keep it coming....

WM

[libingshao]

WM,

I have no idea if this relates. But it is my understanding that HK 7* has Meihua in it. So, perhaos this would be of interest...

1st Zhaiyao, WHF book, movement 21 and 22 are called "white stork spreads wings" in Taijimeihua Tanglangquan. I saw this and was surprised that it has this parallel. BUT if you take your names from mainland 7* I don't know if it applies.

Perhaps Young Mantis could tell us if it applies. It would be an interesting parallel and confirm a lot of things. LKW states that HK 7* does not have Meihua in it, (in his new book). Though this would not disprove the assertion, it would be interesting.

Libingshao

[bungbukuen]

I do not study Mei Hua, but I have heard that there is some or even considerable cross over between Mei Hua and Seven Star. Not necessarily similarities in forms, or even names of techniques, but in the actual physical techniques themselves and what not. I am sure there are a few people out there who have studied both who could comment on this.

I could be wrong but I get the impression some people believe these Similarities are the result of intra school exchanges or mixing that occurred within the last few generations of teachers. For example when people say that Hong Kong 7* Mantis has Mei Hua in it, they are saying that the similarities arose only within the last 75 years or so.

Of course I could never verify this one way or the other, but my gut feeling is that it is the opposite.

Wouldn’t the similarities between 7* and Meihua (not just HK 7*) have much more to do with the simple fact that both systems are close cousins with the same roots. Both are Mantis, both use to be just one Mantis, and both are from Shandong. Even before its inception there was already long history of MA development in Shandong with some probable trends already taking shape. The foundation of techniques that we find common in both 7*, Meihua, adn even Liu He today probably already pre-existed during the earlier developmental proto type phases of Mantis. IMO this would be the better common sense explanation.

What exactly did LKW write in his book about Mei Hua? Would be interesting.

Just my two American cents - which by the way is not worth as much as it use to be! Any thoughts?

[libingshao]

BBK,

I think you are right. There are common origins, stories of exchanges between masters and stories of entire sets being adopted by different styles of Tanglangquan. For example, Meihua Lu Quan, (plum flower road), was, as I was told, adopted by Seven Star from Jiang Hualong of Meihua Tanglangquan.

I don't have LKW's book myself but I have read exerpts on the internet.

Historian Hon chiu-wong and from others quoting Wong Hon-Fun say that:

Lu Guangyu called his school Tanglang Men. (School of mantis boxing) not Seven Star.

His school was a mix of 7*, Meihua and Guang Bang, (shiney board)

That there were three Meihua sets and that master luo intended them to function as Zhai Yao so that you had three more making a total of six Zhaiyao. (just what I have read, if someone knows better please don't be offended if I misrepresent a position). As I understand it, Hon chiu-wong maintains he has many historical documents to support this position.

What I saw from LKW was that:

Master Luo called his school 7*
There are Five Plum Flower sets like the petals of the flower and only the inheritor of the style got all five. There are no historical documents offered for this position.

Anyway that is what I have read/ heard. Anybody knowing more can help out I am sure.

Libingshao

[Young Mantis]

WM,

I have no idea if this relates. But it is my understanding that HK 7* has Meihua in it. So, perhaos this would be of interest...

1st Zhaiyao, WHF book, movement 21 and 22 are called "white stork spreads wings" in Taijimeihua Tanglangquan. I saw this and was surprised that it has this parallel. BUT if you take your names from mainland 7* I don't know if it applies.

Perhaps Young Mantis could tell us if it applies. It would be an interesting parallel and confirm a lot of things. LKW states that HK 7* does not have Meihua in it, (in his new book). Though this would not disprove the assertion, it would be interesting.

Libingshao

LBS,
Just to clarify, in his book on Essential #1, WHF lists #21 as "left spreads wings kick". There is no mention of "white stork" in either the title of the movement nor the explanation although the hand movement is the same as the beginning of Tchahp Tchui which we do call "White Goose spreads wings". #22 is a completely different move that does not relate to the spreading of wings imagery.

WM,
There are many of these names strewn about throughout the forms. For example in the form Bung Bo, some of the names are:

Snatching the pearl from the bottom of the sea
praying mantis catches the cicada
snatching the treasure from behind the back
strong tyrant invites guest

I agree that sometimes the classical name of a movement may give inspiration to how it should be played but it really depends on how one interprets or perceives the names. Two people might read the same name differently and often the names can be difficult to translate accurately.

For the most part, when we call out the forms in class, we use the standardized nomenclature passed down by WHF but when we practice our sahn sau, we learn the classical names for each technique passed down by both WHF and late GM Chiu Chuk Kai of TJPM.

In regards to the "Mui Fah" sets in Northern Praying Mantis, they are commonly referred to collectively as "Sahm Fah Sau" - Three Flower Hands. WHF mentions this briefly in his introduction for book #7 - Mui Fah Kuen. I cannot vouch for other lineages and someone please correct me if I am wrong but I believe only the CCM lineage claims to have 5 plum flower forms.


Vance

[libingshao]

LBS,
Just to clarify, in his book on Essential #1, WHF lists #21 as "left spreads wings kick". There is no mention of "white stork" in either the title of the movement nor the explanation although the hand movement is the same as the beginning of Tchahp Tchui which we do call "White Goose spreads wings". #22 is a completely different move that does not relate to the spreading of wings imagery.

Vance

YM,

Yes, as I stated in my post, I was noting that the name of the movement was called White Stork Spreads Wings in Taijimeihua Tanglangquan. Also as I said, I have no idea if the name is the same in 7* or not.

As Dennis Prager says, "I prefer clarity to agreement".

Thank you for taking the time to address my post.

Libingshao

[bungbukuen]

Get ready guys, this is a big post. I do not mean to high jack this thread, but I wanted to bring up an issue related to NAME differences and the obvious confusion they can casue.


What Issue
Specifically about the naming of the six Zhai Yao sets under the LGY lineage families and the Plum Blossom sets (#4, #5, and #6) within the Chiu Chi Man family lineage. In reality this should not be an issue, but the different names and what not seem to have created some confusion.


First Some Background:
1) LKW writes very clearly in his forms lists that they have three Zhai Yao sets. I do not know what other more senior students from Chiu Chi Man write. I leave it open here for their feedback. Lee Kam Wing also very clearly says that they have five plumb blossom sets – Mei Hua (MH) Lu, MH Quan, MH Shou, MH Zhang, MH Tui One, & two. Actually it is six if you count MH Tui one and two separately. (http://www.hokiu.com/forms.html)

2) A larger number of LGY’s other students appear to have at least 6 Zhai Yao sets. They also have three Plum Blossom sets (MH Lu, MH Quan, MH Shou). Students like WHF had these sets. I also suspect famous students such as Wong Kam Hung and others also had these. Can we get confirmation on this? Even LGYs kung fu brothers like Yang Wei Xin and Li Jin Shan for example had at least six Zhai Yao sets. WHF Forms List (http://users.aol.com/beishaolin/qixing.html)


Million Dollar Question:
Why would the Chiu Chi Man lineage be short three Zhai Yao forms, and possess three more Mei Hua forms? It is just too much of a coincidence that adds up pefrectly.


A Few Different Conclusions:
1) Some people from “background #1” conclude that LGY only had three Zhai Yao sets. They also bridge the gap explaining that LGY supplemented the other missing three Zhai Yao sets with Mei Hua Zhang, Mei Hua Tui Yi Lu, and Mei Hua Tui Er Lu. This is possible but it does nto seem to fit with the other camps.

2) Others from “background #2” conclude that LGY did in fact teach six Zhai Yao sets and three plumb blossom sets. They also bridge the gap by explaining that LGY created additional names for the fourth, fifth, and sixth Zhai Yao forms. Namely MH Zhang, Yi Lu MH Tui, and Er Lu MH Tui. Thsi is much more plausible but contradicts the Chiu Chi Man lineage...or does it?


What is really happening?
1. From my own perspective at least it appears obvious that the overwhelming majority of LGY’s students taught six Zhai Yao sets and three Mei Hua forms. LGY obviously must have taught six Zhai Yao sets and three Mei Hua sets.

2. More importantly from what I have heard from a select number of teachers and students who have studied from both CCM and WHF lineages alike is that the fourth, fifth, and sixth Zhai Yao sets taught by LGYs students such as WHF are near identical to the fourth, fifth, and sixth Mei Hua forms taught by Lee Kam Wing.

3. In actuality the Chiu Chi Man lineage just might in fact also have six Zhai Yao sets, but simply prefer to refer to the last three Zhai Yai sets as Mei Hua (Zhang, Tui Yi Lu, and Tui Er Lu). Please forgive me if this seems out line or rude. It is not meant to be. I also remember reading somewhere from another school or something that LGY for whatever reaons decided to add another layer of names to the last three Zhai Yao sets. This seems to make sense and seems more probable than saying LGY missed out on three Zhai Yao sets and decided to make up three altogether new ones.

Anyway I think this is just one example of how different names and what not can cause a lot of unnecessary confusion.