Incomplete?

[UNDERDOG 2]

Some sources state the system passed on to wing Chun was only a part of the knowledge Ng Mui had in her complete Plum Blossom Fist System. This makes sense with Wing Chuns limited weapons sets. Whilst empty hand boxing is important the weapon skills were even more important in the history of chinese martial arts. This similar to the importance of knife and empty hand fighting in relation to firearms knowledge for todays soldier.

My question is why has the Plum Blossom Fist System not become popular and almost faded into obscurity if is is that good. I remeber a Black belt article about Ng Mui complete system being taugh many years ago. This is a similar question as to why of the five major southern family system of Hung, Lau, Li, Mok & Choy- Hung Gar is the only one relatively popular.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I doubt that anyone can truly say with 100% accuracy what Wing Chun originally looked like. IMHO, the system being an eclectic system probably underwent numerous changes throughout the years. Just look at the differences between YM/PN/Gualo etc. Doubtless the practitioners adapted the specific system to their own specific needs and environment. Just as many do today.

Having said that let me say that if you view Wing Chun as a specific set of forms or techniques then you are missing so much more that the system has to offer. Wing Chun is a system based on concepts and principles and imo should focus more on the energy presented than on specific shapes of techniques. Having said that, one can take a bit of a leap, perhaps of faith , and realize that one does not need a large number of forms or weapons to make the art complete, or incomplete. By training in the Butterfly knives one learns the concepts as they apply to all short weapons. While there will be some modifications needed depending on the weapon, edged or non-edged, the basic understanding is there to allow one to comprehend how to use double short weapons be they sticks, knives or swords. Likewise the pole introduces one to the concepts of the long weapon and proper training will give the practitioner insight into how to use far more than just the Wing Chun version of the pole. Given the fact that many people were probably unable to purchase, own or practice numerous weapons it kind of makes sense to understand the concepts and then apply them to that category. Despite the numerous number of Chinese weapons they can be broken down into only a few categories. Short/Long/Double/Flexible, perhaps more but this is off the top of my head. I am not saying that by understanding one weapon you will be able to utilize every weapon that fits into that category but neither do I think that one needs to include numerous weapons in order to be considered complete.

I have heard the theory of Wing Chun having been an incomplete version before but, can any system be considered truly “complete”? If so then why aren’t we all studying that system?

IMHO, it is far more productive to focus on your own training and try to grasp the underlying concepts and make the art your own. In this way you can argue that the YOUR Wing Chun is COMPLETE at least for YOU.

[BRIAN]

Excellent reply and one that I can truly say that I have nothing I could add to make your reply more complete. I wish there were more that thought the way you do so that I would no feel as though I am speaking to the wall so often.

[Tom Kagan]

Some sources state the system passed on to wing Chun was only a part of the knowledge Ng Mui had in her complete Plum Blossom Fist System. This makes sense with Wing Chuns limited weapons sets. Whilst empty hand boxing is important the weapon skills were even more important in the history of chinese martial arts. This similar to the importance of knife and empty hand fighting in relation to firearms knowledge for todays soldier.

My question is why has the Plum Blossom Fist System not become popular and almost faded into obscurity if is is that good. I remeber a Black belt article about Ng Mui complete system being taugh many years ago. This is a similar question as to why of the five major southern family system of Hung, Lau, Li, Mok & Choy- Hung Gar is the only one relatively popular.

I would like to rephrase the message of what your alleged sources are actually trying to get across:

"My style is superior to that style!
Nyah Nyah Nyah, Nya-Nyaaah Nyah!"

Does a style versus style comparison still sound reasonable when put this way?

"Plum Flower Fist" and Ving Tsun Paai Kung Fu were both developed well after the dawn of the age of gunpowder. So, the question of which style has a more complete selection of either obsolete or deprecated to utility/secondary roles for its weapons cache is moot.

[anerlich]

"Complete" in this context could have a number of connotations, two of which are:

1. Contains answers for every possible combat problem

2. Is full of every conceivable technique and possibility, and as such full of low percentage rubbish and far to broad to learn properly

WC's often marketed as a integration of many preceding arts, stripped down to essentials for speed of learning and combat efficiency.

The Devo song "Freedom of Choice" keeps playing in the background when I consider "complete systems".

[Sihing73]

Brian

I suspect that most people would look at a system for example, that has chi gung, joint locking, ground fighting, sweeping/throwing, more weapons, etc to be "complete" or at least "more complete" than styles that lack one or more of these things. It can be argued, as I know it will, by many wing chun practioners, that wing chun has all these things so I will provide the reply "has these things in a way that is more developed" to those who would say but it only "seems" that way, well, then I have no reply other than I disagree haha


maybe alot are. Maybe there are those who stay with wing chun because they don't care for those extra components ie joint locking, ground fighting, etc

maybe that's why people cross-train. sytems that cover vast ground and many areas may be suffering from the "many swords but none very sharp" syndrome. perhaps it's better to learn less "complete" but more specialized systems since they perfect one area, and look elsewhere for systems that specialize in other things, perfect other areas.

and of course, maybe some don't see wing chun as incomplete. whether they are mistaken or not is a different story...

Hello,

Don't focus on the "technique" but consider the concept. Most systems of Kung Fu have some form of Chin Na found within them. What sets them apart is the degree to which they may focus on this concept and how they explore it. Chin Na is simply the method of using controlling techniques rather than strikes, although there are strikes to be found within What is different is the focus no longer being on striking but on controlling the opponent. If I pass your punch and apply an elbow as an means of applying an armbar, is it the technique which is the focus or the energy being presented. For example if I apply my power/energy in a steady manner with gradual increases then it is a "controlling" attack. However, if I take the essentially same "technique" and apply it with shocking/cutting energy as more of a strike then it could be a destuction rather than a control. Yet, your control can be taken to the next level and result in hyperextension and destruction of the limb. The technique is not the end all but the understanding of how to apply variations in energy allows one to have one method with many results. This is what makes higher level MA's so effective, not the specific method of combat but their understanding of the various energies of combat and their ability to adapt and change as they encounter that energy.

As long as man continues to change/adapt/evolve there will never, IMHO, be a truly "complete" martial art/system. Yet having said that; as long as man continues to think and explore the area of combat then each person can become complete in their own circumstance. As long as you are true to your own needs and desires then you are doing okay. Just don't pretend to be something else. And remember no one has a monopoly on the truth, there is no one RIGHT way of combat.

Rather than get caught up on titles and labels such as complete, incomplete, reality based etc. Focus on becoming a better person and adapt your combat to the reality of your needs. In todays world you are more likely to face more than one armed opponent and in such a situation survival will depend on many factors rather than just combat skill. In this case, perhaps a COMPLETE art is one which teaches verbal judo in addition to the physical empty hand and weapons techniques.

[snakebyte8]

My question is why has the Plum Blossom Fist System not become popular and almost faded into obscurity if is is that good.

Why did beta fade out while vhs thrived? Answer= Who Cares! We have dvd's now!

I don't have any experience with the Plum Blossom Fist but perhaps if it has so much more to learn than Wing Chun it probably takes a lot longer to learn. The Wing Chun "puppy mill" can churn out sifu's very quickly. Back in Hong Kong Yip Man students would start teaching even before they knew the whole system. For instance Moy Yat started teaching after learning Chum Kiu. This was to help pay for their own lessons. (I hear the "Dummy" was expensive back then)

So maybe there was just not that many people teaching the Plum Blossom Fist, therefore thousands of schools didn't pop up almost overnight like Wing Chun.

side note
As for learning more weapons, WHY? Broadswords, tigerforks, staff, butterfly swords, three sectional staff, spears, chain whips, rope darts, fans, daggers, Kwan dao and many more. You would need a five ton truck to carry all the weapons that are taught and they certainly didn't have those way back when!

[snakebyte8]

In this case, perhaps a COMPLETE art is one which teaches verbal judo in addition to the physical empty hand and weapons techniques.

I flipped a guy with a "KEEEYAIII" once! It took him completely by surprise!

[Sihing73]

Why did beta fade out while vhs thrived? Answer= Who Cares! We have dvd's now!

One word Marketting!! The most successful systems are not always the best for combat. Oh, but they are the best marketted ones around.

[UNDERDOG 2]

Hello,
I was reading an earlier post from Wongjunlam. I have read a while ago about sahp yi faht but I can't remember what it is exactly. I know its a method to apply WC into a fighting situation quickly. Could anyone explain further with more specifics? I currently train in Yip Man WC and so I am not sure I have encountered this.

[UNDERDOG 2]

With all the modernising of the wing chun system by people, do you think it is an improvement as practioners become more aware of different fighting styles and commericalisation.

If UFC is a cross section of modern day martial artists, then natural footwork, ground fighting, kickboxing seem to be the answer over "classical" approaches to footwork, technique, sensitivity. Maybe bruce lee took what was useful from wing chun and discarded the rest or is wing chun sacred as it is?

[Edmund]

Hello,
I was reading an earlier post from Wongjunlam. I have read a while ago about sahp yi faht but I can't remember what it is exactly. I know its a method to apply WC into a fighting situation quickly. Could anyone explain further with more specifics? I currently train in Yip Man WC and so I am not sure I have encountered this.

I thought in another post you said you studied YKS WC.

[UNDERDOG 2]

I thought in another post you said you studied YKS WC.

I have had the opportunity to study three wing chun styles due to alot of unwanted traveling over the years. and good at none.

[Edmund]

I have had the opportunity to study three wing chun styles due to alot of unwanted traveling over the years. and good at none.

Who did you study YKS WC with?

[Tom Kagan]

... For instance Moy Yat started teaching after learning Chum Kiu. This was to help pay for their own lessons. ...

LOL! Whatever, dude.

Moy Yat started learning in 1957. He started teaching a full 6 years later (1963) at the age of 25.

I will share with you what is far more important about what you seem to think he did: Even 38 years after he started teaching, he still considered himself a student of the art. Nothing would have stopped him (least of all, money) if he felt there was something else somewhere that could present him with insight into any subject on which he was interested - as he was with Ving Tsun Paai Kung Fu.