Ma Bu (Horse Stance) Training

[Reggie1]

So you are saying that the bench press doesn't develop the muscles that you use in a push or hmmmm....... let me think..... a punch?

That's debatable. Guys who bench a lot aren't necessarily the hardest hitters.

[MasterKiller]

So you are saying that the bench press doesn't develop the muscles that you use in a push or hmmmm....... let me think..... a punch?

And the clean and jerk doesn't help you to develop full body explosive power?

Kicking thai pads doesn't help you to improve your kicking form?

Burpee's don't help to improve your cardio?

and a horse stance doesn't help to build leg strength, improve flexibility and improve your ability to be rooted?

You sound like the kind of person that talks sooooo much that you start to believe your own press.

Looking forward to your long winded response.

No.............he's saying that is basically what IronFist is saying. Omar is arguing that extracurricular exercises do add value to training, which is counter-point to IronFist's argument that the most efficient way to become a great fighter is to only fight all the time.

[gwa sow]

i've seen some pretty big guys come trought our school who couldn't punch out of a paper bag. muscles do help but as with all other things, technique is the best.

[fa_jing]

CF - Actually, OTF was pointing out the flaw in that line of thinking.

IF - most of the people you named don't train Kung Fu either. If they did, they would practice stance training, though not to an arbitrarily large degree.

7* -- Lack of horse training doesn't explain the Muy Thai round kick, but it does explain the lack of a side kick.

Liokault - have you ever taken that kind of class? If you had you would see that I am not talking crap and that a weak horse will distract from the learning process.

[Reggie1]

7* -- Lack of horse training doesn't explain the Muy Thai round kick, but it does explain the lack of a side kick.

I thought that Thai boxers didn't use a side kick as much because there weren't standing throws in Thai boxing (supposedly a side kick is harder to catch).

[omarthefish]

THANK YOU! Masterkiller for actually being able to .. . uh... read the context and have a little reading comprehension instead of quoting out of context entirely and MISSING THE POINT like most people seem to do to me these days.

It's called satire guys. I think there's also a formal debate term for taking your opponents argument to it's logical extremit to demonstrate it's absurdity but I can't remember what it's called at the moment.

oh...Fa Jing too.

who knows. There may even be some lurkers here who got my point.

[Liokault]

Liokault - have you ever taken that kind of class? If you had you would see that I am not talking crap and that a weak horse will distract from the learning process.

No, I have no interest in Kung Fu atall (tai chi however ), mostly because of the thinking that got this thread started.

I find your point to have flaws:

So you train horse stance so you can get through a kung fu class?: I think my analogy stands up here.

Rest periods: So if your working your legs to the max in class, plus your doing it at home (so that it becomes easy in class), where are you recovering? Do you only have one class a week?

Wouldn't the leg work in class, after a few weeks give you enough leg stamina to get through a class ok?

[Chief Fox]

No.............he's saying that is basically what IronFist is saying. Omar is arguing that extracurricular exercises do add value to training, which is counter-point to IronFist's argument that the most efficient way to become a great fighter is to only fight all the time.

You see, I wasn't getting his point after all. Sorry dude. I'll shut up now.

[Chief Fox]

THANK YOU! Masterkiller for actually being able to .. . uh... read the context and have a little reading comprehension instead of quoting out of context entirely and MISSING THE POINT like most people seem to do to me these days.

If most people are doing this then maybe you should look at the way you write. Now I'm shutting up.

[PangQuan]

This is getting funny.

Its like horse vs. no horse.

If you went to any high level martial artists who has been a kung fu practitioner for many years, and you told them that ma bu has no benefit, well you would likely get laughed out of the building. Why? Because generally every high level kung fu practitioner has experienced the benefits. Its pretty simple really. I know a good sidekick to the stomach works really well, why? Because I have been sidekicked in the stomach, and I have sidekicked people in the stomach, from this first hand experience I have felt the benefits of the sidekick to stomach. Likewise I have experienced benefits from ma bu.

People who argue ma bu is no good, well simply have not experienced the benefits. They may have practiced ma bu but did not stick with it long enough to find out the benefits.

Like someone who wont eat a certain food, even though they have never tried. They say "that food does not look like it will suit me" so they go without eating it even though they do not really KNOW anything about how it tastes.

Then when they eventually do try the food they say "that is not tasting so good, I dont think I will eat that anymore" Little do they know that the food is actual good for them. It may not be to their liking so they decide to eat food that is good for them and to their liking.

Well this other food is an aquired taste and will be eaten by those who do like it and will benefit those who eat it.

Ma Bu is an effective method, it is not the only method. But you cannot denounce it because I have proof it is effective. Pretty common sense really.

[fa_jing]

No, I have no interest in Kung Fu atall (tai chi however ), mostly because of the thinking that got this thread started.

I find your point to have flaws:

So you train horse stance so you can get through a kung fu class?: I think my analogy stands up here.

Rest periods: So if your working your legs to the max in class, plus your doing it at home (so that it becomes easy in class), where are you recovering? Do you only have one class a week?

Wouldn't the leg work in class, after a few weeks give you enough leg stamina to get through a class ok?

Well it will but it will take longer. I remember that when I took TKD, we did lots and lots of wall kicks and swing kicks. At first keeping up was tough. You know what helped? Practicing more wall kicks and swing kicks at home. Then again, that class was only twice a week.
The kung fu class I am talking about met up to 5 times a week. However, not everyone could make it all 5 days - I averaged 3 I think. Horse stance is something that you can practice nearly every day like long-distance running, and still make progress.

[IronFist]

And MY point is that your argument applies to bench press, running, wind sprints, running stairs, kicking a heavy bag, skipping rope and any other supplementary exercise you can think of. To whit:

-Bench Pressing develops no real skill our side of doing a bench press.
-Clean and Jerk develpps no real skill out side of doing a clean and jerk.
-kicking thai pads develpps no real skill out side of kicking thai pads.
-burpee's develop no real skill out side of doing burpees. . .

Not exactly. You're right in a way. Bench pressing is the best at developing your bench pressing ability. However, it has some carryover to similar motions. Is throwing a punch the same as bench pressing? No. But once one has the proper mechanics of a punch, the added strength gained from benching will make them punch harder. Obviously someone who benches a lot but doesn't know how to throw a punch won't be able to hit that hard.

Let me address your other examples.

Clean and Jerk - The nature of this exercise develops strength across the entire body, which is fiarly transferrable to other motions that use those muscles.

The reason horse stance doesn't fit that same description is because you're just sitting there and, as I explained before, not developing strength or anything other than endurance with your legs at a 90 degree angle (or whatever).

Kicking thai pads - develops neurological coordination (the same reason you get better at anything you practice over and over. Possible cardio benefits, too, if you do it with eough intensity.

Burpees - cardio and endurance.

Again, the difference between those two and horse stance is that with those you're actually using a motion similar to one you might use in a fight and therefore there is some carryover.

In other words, it doesn't really say much. BUT I will give you that in a way, I agree. The primary "skill" it gives you is a good horse stance.

You are correct.

Absolutely! That's why the atheletes at the top eschelons of the martial arts incorporating those deep stances DO train the horse stance. Mas Oyama, Chang Dong Sheng and others.

Correct, but you're kind of just proving my point that the only people who need horse stance training are TMAists. I never disagreed that it wasn't valuable for that type of training. My only point was that it has no real carryover into anything else, including fighting.

Once again, more irrelevant comparisons. It's like saying bag works is not valuable training. Wrestlers don't, pro boxers don't, pro football players, soccer players, baseball players, etc. all don't.

Right, but boxers do do bag work. My point was that if no one does something, it's probably of little value. Pro boxers do bag work because it is vaulable for boxing (fighting). Pro boxers also lift weights because it helps them develop power.

That's interesting. I didn't know about the +/- 15 degree's part. That means that it is building endurance in exactly the range of motion you need it most for many traditional martial arts. No wonder it is such a vital part of traditional training.

What in the world do you do that requires increased endurance with your knees at a 90 degree angle? You surely don't fight in that stance.

Ok listen. We all agree that horse stance builds endurance in that position, right? Let's suppose that in fighting you may take that position for 2 seconds (which is a very liberal estimate because if you took that position at all it would likely be for a split second, not 2 seconds). During those 2 seconds, your performance will not be any different if you regularly train horse stance for 30 seconds or for 10 minutes a day. In other words, all the endurance you've gained from all your horse stance training would not come into play unless you were in a fighting situation similar to your training conditions, where you were in a horse stance for extended periods of time. So due to the SAID principle, the only way horse stance training (for more than 30 seconds to a minute) would be valuable i a fight would be if you had a reason to hold it for long periods of time in the fight.

That was me I think. Or at least I mentioned it in passing. There IS a specific flexibility program for it. It's called stance training.

lol you know what I meant

Mainly your argument is based on explaining why horse stance training is not usefull for people who don't make active use of horse stances. Well duh. For those of us who DO use these things though...we need to work on those horses.

Right. The other part of my argument was to make sure everyone knows that that's the only thing they're getting from their horse stance training.

I used to think that cuz I could do a horse stance for a while I'd be strong and able to kick harder and squat more than people who didn't, like it was some super secret form of training. I was kind of brought back into reality by some awesome people I had the privledge of meeting.

Anyway, good discussion. I have to go eat lunch.

[SevenStar]

7* -- Lack of horse training doesn't explain the Muy Thai round kick, but it does explain the lack of a side kick.

the thais have a sidekick, you'll just never see it. It was seen traditionally, and as time progressed has been phased out, as the teep is preferred. There is also a back kick, and spinning kicks...

[MasterKiller]

the thais have a sidekick, you'll just never see it. It was seen traditionally, and as time progressed has been phased out, as the teep is preferred. There is also a back kick, and spinning kicks...

If Muay Thai guys eat side kicks all the time, why don't more Muay Thai guys use them?

[SevenStar]

Have you guys ever taken a vigorous N. Shaolin - style class? You will need Ma Bu training just to get through the class, which involves moving around in low stances and punching, executing techniques etc. Plus, do you want to be concentrating on your shaking/tired legs, or on the technique? Ma Bu is something that you can fairly quickly practice on your own and it will help you get more out of your class.

In my longfist days we did stance training religiously. From a standpoint of fighting, I didn't think we needed it then, either. I can't deny that you get a good workout from it, though.