System Completeness??

[Piercing Light]

Hi All,

My first post here.
I have been looking the forum and want to ask about completeness in any system.

Southern Styles are most effective but most seem to be limited to stand up situations. A lot of so called anti-grappling techniques aren't always based on reality. e.g. being face on to an attacker (unlikely), you may have been tackled from behind etc.

What is Chinese grappling?
Do any southern Kung Fu have this within the system?
Can Chinese grappling compare to BJJ (I mean the techniques would have to be the same or at least very similar)?

In fairness, I think to be complete you must be at least a compentant ground fighter. Strike and Submission fighting is not reality but it shows a lot for any martial artist (e.g. reactions etc.).
Finally in order to be good like anything you must train and train hard. I have never seen any chinese grappling at all... or training in any kung fu, why is this?

So is there really completeness or are we left to do what Bruce did (not philosophical)?

Thanks,

Piercing Light

[Yum Cha]

First Post? Ok. A little protocol....

A topic on exactly this same topic already exists in the main Kung Fu forum, here's the link.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ad.php?t=36500

Its called "cross posting". No sense in starting a similar thread here when one already exists.

If you are not getting the info you want from that other thread, perhaps a different thread name might be in order to avoid confusion.

BTW, welcome to the forum.
Cheers

[fiercest tiger]

I dont think kung fu has better ground work then BJJ because thats what they do only. Kung fu has alot more involvemnt with stand up, clinch and throws, takedowns, but limited ground work. Kung fu rather finish standing or takedown and smash without the wrestling.

Although a friend of mine at work is BJJ and submission grappling his ground work is very smooth and he knows his ****, but so far he hasnt taken me down and we havent tested our hands yet with gloves on. Soon it will happen though!! Its hard to prove that kung fu has a great fighting arsenal but whats lacking is no kung fu guys are entering MMA to see if they can stand up to the MMA. IMHO kung fu is really a MMA but specialises in stand up more so then ground. Iceman beat Randy and he is a groundfighter.Iceman is more a kempo and thai guy with some background now in groundfighting. Its how you train and against all ranges not just forms in kung fu!

hope this helps!

FT

[Yum Cha]

Hi Piercing Light,

Fierce Kitten has given you some good feedback on Kung Fu and BBJ.

The issue with the three, striking, grappling and ground fighting is probably more related to getting the opponent to fight your fight, not in fighting their fight.

Chinese Grappling - Google "Chi na" for some examples. It exists, and has lots of application.

There is another version, Bridge Fighting, which is more a combination of grappling and striking. You bridge, in essence, connect with your opponent, then you hold the connection and strike across it. A ridiculously simple example would be grabbing someone by the shirt, then hitting them with the opposite hand, then grabbing them with the striking hand, and hitting them with the hand that had formerly grabbed. In essence, never breaking the contact (bridge) with the opponent. The technique being that the "bridge" keeps the opponent off balance, and the strike has a better result. Again, ridiculously simple example, but the fundamental is characteristic of lots of southern styles.

[Piercing Light]

Hey this is going well,

Thanks for your honest response FT, as expected your response seems accurate.

Yum Cha, I agree there are many applications for different techniques, for a variety of purposes. That's why Bruce's JKD philosophy is so appealing. Kung-fu has more to offer than a variety of items that can be purchased in a store and it has much significance.

I am not sure but I have come to think what does it mean to train in a variety of areas?
Areas which don't always require "damaging force". For example my younger brother went a bit nuts and would not calm down, striking would cause "damaging force" but to circumvent the situation I focused his aggression on myself and choked him out enough for him to realise his helplessness and calm down without "hurting him or him hurting others".
I use this to compare like what child specialist does to traumatised enraged children... they sit on them, until they calm down... very effective. The child is often the original victum too (just to point out).

This is why as I get older completeness and wisdom is an unending process.
Kung-fu is great and meaningful but seperating it out and teaching it in components keeps it pure but does not allow for some type of integration effect. I think the elders were probably wiser than this. I am sure that this is a riddle and the missing piece might exist, as bamboo shares the same root system.

Sure MMA Kung-Fu would be good to see and in today's time, time is limited, attraction is entertainment and wisdom is not a blood spattered stain on a mat. One hit one kill?

What are your thoughts FT, Yum Cha?

Piercing Light

[fiercest tiger]

I think that Kung fu has much more to offer, i myslef have gone more into the internal systems alot more and see that they are better for you then external hand sets. Each to there own as they say!

Still i spar my guys and do the pad work, conditioning, road runs, i go to the gym as well surf. Where do you want the fu to take you? I know what i want now after 20 years i finally found why i do M/arts.

FT

[Reggie1]

What is Chinese grappling?

Shaui Chiao, Fukien Dog boxing are two examples of Chinese grappling. I don't know a lot about Dog boxing or where to find it.

Can Chinese grappling compare to BJJ (I mean the techniques would have to be the same or at least very similar)?

I don't really have a ton of experience, but in my opinion, no. I think BJJ is one of the best systems when it comes to groundfighting.

Finally in order to be good like anything you must train and train hard. I have never seen any chinese grappling at all... or training in any kung fu, why is this?

I don't know. I train at a 7* mantis school, and we work on standing grappling / throws/ breakfalls. We also train in some groundfighting, but it's with someone who has a jiu-jitsu background.

[Vasquez]

Areas which don't always require "damaging force". For example my younger brother went a bit nuts and would not calm down, striking would cause "damaging force" but to circumvent the situation I focused his aggression on myself and choked him out enough for him to realise his helplessness and calm down without "hurting him or him hurting others".
I use this to compare like what child specialist does to traumatised enraged children... they sit on them, until they calm down... very effective. The child is often the original victum too (just to point out). Piercing Light

Oic just like a doctor - first thing is to do no harm. I like that philosophy

[Piercing Light]

Thanks for the posts,

If there is limited grappling, locking up and ground stuff etc. (in kung-fu) and there is no full system is there any problem with training ground stuff and combining it with a relatively complete Kung-fu system for stand up ?
Because there seems to be a debate if Kungfu guys trained the ground fighting element that they would be much better in MMA etc. But if you trained it well, you would have to go outside your art to really improve (like all MMA guys)... Seems like most people have been calling this mix-matching and have given this a negative connotation.
Is this right? For example combining BJJ and Kung-Fu is it OK? Because Reggie7 says BJJ boys are probably better than the CMA boys.

FT, I also like to do a variety of training in many areas. It's good to see that you have found why you do MA. Hmm... Me I am not sure but I have a few good reasons to do it (some I know and some I don't) and it's good that way. Not sure how to answer "where the Fu is taking me" though... I'll tell you when I get there.

Vasquez, yeah you know it. I might not be skillful but I think knowing what to do when and then doing it counts for a lot. Having the ability and attributes is only the first step... (and I still haven't got that).

Piercing Light

[Vasquez]

Becoming a closed door diciple will be a bonus for sure. It might take a few years to earn your sifu's trust and become part of the family.

[fiercest tiger]

What is more important comps or street reality? We trained takedowns and mounts last night and for fun i threw 2 guys into the mix as the student was on top bashing the bottom, and let me say the guy on the mount coped a kick to face and then got beaten up as if the guys friends came running in to help his mate.

So its up to you what is right and wrong bro,

FT

[Vasquez]

Are you saying its better to be the one at the bottom?

[Piercing Light]

Hi FT,

No doubt in your senario being on the ground is not the best position for 3 people but nor is the violence of beating someone senseless from the mount... , might not be nessecary, right?
Out of curiousity what were you training.. Reality or BJJ? and who was in control, did you want to prove your point? Did you set the senario to your students and tell them what was allowed, warn them of possibilities etc.?
Another thing, why were you training takedowns and mounts in the first place? Is this part of your style or are you on the same track but being oppositional?
When I learn something new like rock climbing I expect my teacher will warn me of unforeseen possiblities and strategies to deal with them, isn't that the art in Martial Art?
If you read my post "good responses" you will see that I think different situations call for different attitudes. I am not that knowledgable but BJJ and grappling doesn't need to go the the ground, locks and chokes can be whilst standing. Right?
All real situations are reality just they can be different. A screaming child is reality or a hormonal teenager attacking others, are you suggesting to beat them up?
Maybe in your situation he should have struck the first student in the throat and dealt with the other two, better than taking the kick? One dead student, it might stop the other two students?
No right and wrong in my book only consequences, (probably all wrong) just the choosing the best possible outcome in any given situation.
And just in case I misunderstand, I do see your point if you mean survival first and how street is not sport. And I agree whole heartly that training for the "real" deal is primary.
I am agreeing with you... but what do you do when tearing someone apart is really not the best reality option?

Piercing Light

[Reggie1]

But if you trained it well, you would have to go outside your art to really improve (like all MMA guys)... Seems like most people have been calling this mix-matching and have given this a negative connotation.

Here's my take on this. The history behind my style is that, ~400 years ago, the founder of the style and his sihing created 7-star mantis by taking what they thought was the best stuff from 17 other styles at the time, incorporating some principles based on their observations of the mantis insect and the dil sau (mantis hand) technique. This is what 7-star mantis is.

Our style came from cherry-picking other styles for their best stuff. My opinion, based on our history, is that the founder of the style wouldn't have a problem taking good groundfighting techniques and incoporating them into the system. Does this make us not mantis fighters any more? Are we mixed martial artists now? I guess we could be called MMA people now, but I don't really care. It's just a label. I still think of myself as a mantis fighter, because I try and apply our principles, even while groundfighting.

Our groundwork instruction also comes from another 7* instructor who has a background in jiu-jitsu. So he's very good at combining groundwork techniques w/ mantis principles.

Is this right? For example combining BJJ and Kung-Fu is it OK? Because Reggie7 says BJJ boys are probably better than the CMA boys.

Let me clarify--I'm saying BJJ guys a great groundfighters, and that BJJ is one of the best systems when it comes to groundfighting. I've never seen Dog Boxing or any other CMA groundfighting, so I really can't comment on it.

[SevenStar]

I dont think kung fu has better ground work then BJJ because thats what they do only. Kung fu has alot more involvemnt with stand up, clinch and throws, takedowns, but limited ground work. Kung fu rather finish standing or takedown and smash without the wrestling.

Although a friend of mine at work is BJJ and submission grappling his ground work is very smooth and he knows his ****, but so far he hasnt taken me down and we havent tested our hands yet with gloves on. Soon it will happen though!! Its hard to prove that kung fu has a great fighting arsenal but whats lacking is no kung fu guys are entering MMA to see if they can stand up to the MMA. IMHO kung fu is really a MMA but specialises in stand up more so then ground. Iceman beat Randy and he is a groundfighter.Iceman is more a kempo and thai guy with some background now in groundfighting. Its how you train and against all ranges not just forms in kung fu!

hope this helps!

FT

IMO, kung fu does not fall into the MMA category, generally. there is not enough diversity. to "have grappling in the system" isn't enough... you must be actively training it on a regular basis. being made up of multiple styles isn't the sole requirement.

As for iceman, the reason he's so effective is that he trains grappling. His kempo and thai gave him decent hands, but he is awesome at defending takedowns - that didn't come from either kempo or thai boxing.... chuck was captain of his high school wrestling team and has been training bjj for the past six years. He uses this knowledge to help him defend the takedown, then strike.


EDIT: he was a division 1 wrestler through four years of college as well.