Ho Chun

[Dale Dugas]

Ho Chun makes good points about people. No need to judge their personal life or business holdings unless you want people walking around you and your stuff with a microscope as well.

I have heard other martial arts people talk about Stone Warrior, and its apparent lack of credibility nor any other people who have heard of it or practice it.

GM Chicoine has one of the best Iron Hand programs out there. It has microcosmic work as well as strength training built into the exercises you must do before you even start hitting the bag. It works for I have been training on it for over a year.

No one ever jumped down Brian Gray's throat when he claimed to be the ole high and mighty father of American Iron Palm, at least that was how he was calling himself.

Please, Gray cannot even compare. Most people have no idea what they are seeing when they are looking at what GM Chicoine is teaching.

Like Ho Chun said, "Teacher(GM Chicoine) teaches graduate level martial arts".

The man has some decent programs and material to teach.

Like anyone else you should go see with your own eyes, ears and see what the man is about. I have, and he has my respect.

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[M.C. Busman]

I don't know about the Taiwanese government throwing parades--the most recent photos on the ISCA website appear to be over 10 years old. Mr. Chicoine's own statements on the Ho Chun website under the "News" section http://www.shuaichiao.com/ suggest he thinks/thought being appointed President of the International Shuai Chiao Association by Cheng, and being given rank by the Taiwanese Shuai Chiao group entitled him to unquestioned headmastery over ALL Shuai Chiao--including his seniors in Taiwan! He was corrected a few years back by Chang Tung-sheng's grandson, David Chang, who actually posted a statement on the internet as a result of Gene Chicoine's continuous baiting. You can read David Chang's words yourself at: http://www.changshuaichiao.com/dc_statement.htm

David Chang points out the logical, that "...it was simply not possible for him [Chang Tung-sheng] to teach the highest levels of shuai chiao, fist forms, and chi kung to any foreigners due to language and time constraints. [...]" While David Chang doesn't specifically name this "...one foreigner who has spread false information on the Internet.", it is evident he is speaking of Chicoine.

Another Taiwanese Shuai Chiao teacher was also not impressed by the posturing was Chu Yu-lung, whose partial translated statement can be read here: http://www.changshuaichiao.com/english_translation.htm

David Chang was the one man who didn't need to become a disciple or an adopted son to carry on the teachings of Chang Tung-sheng. He is the man's grandson, and he is supported by the senior Shuai Chiao disciples of Taiwan--men who learned with Chang Tung-sheng for YEAR! It is astounding that someone without thorough knowledge of the language or culture would try to bring others "in line" by trying to discredit blood relations and known legitimate long-time students/disciples who had special relationships with Chang Tung-sheng.

Criticizing everyone else in the Shuai Chiao universe lets Chicoine off the hook in terms of establishing and running a REAL functional international organization as he promised Grandmaster Chang. Now Gene Chicoine is free to blame Taiwan and say that all have turned against him--pick your reason. And he can go back to teaching poison/black hand arts and alluding to secrets he may or may not parse out to a select few loyalists if he chooses, should he feel the time is ever right.

It appears Mr. Chicoine has left Shuai Chiao, and not the other way around. Maybe his website needs updating?


M.C. Busman

[Ho Chun]

[QUOTE=M.C. Busman]
And he can go back to teaching poison/black hand arts and alluding to secrets he may or may not parse out to a select few loyalists if he chooses, should he feel the time is ever right.


Wow M.C. Busman, you appear to know quite abit about the I.S.C.A.
Were you a student of Chicoine's??

[lotus storm]

Wow M.C. Busman, you appear to know quite abit about the I.S.C.A.
Were you a student of Chicoine's??

Or is this all speculation, hearsay, assumption?

posturing

You know this?

Criticizing everyone else in the Shuai Chiao universe

Then are the other posters lying or misinformed? Some have written that Chicoine does NOT criticise "everyone" else, in fact has good relations with many and supports them as they support him (R Pickens being one singled out).

??? Who is really doing this "posturing" and mudslinging wihtout good base in fact? Or is the actual person, or group, with the personal agenda---or vendetta? You are of superior credibility---why?

known legitimate long-time students/disciples who had special relationships with Chang Tung-sheng

"known" by who? Can you differentiate between "legitimate" kung fu material and Chang's "true" teachings---and politics or propaganda?

[M.C. Busman]

Ho Chun wrote: "Wow M.C. Busman, you appear to know quite abit about the I.S.C.A. [....]

Yes. I've been following the dissemination of the art of SC for almost 30 years.

Ho Chun asked: "Were you a student of Chicoine's??"

No. Nor one of any of his..."competitors".

Lotus Storm wrote: "Then are the other posters lying or misinformed? Some have written that Chicoine does NOT criticise "everyone" else, in fact has good relations with many and supports them as they support him (R Pickens being one singled out).[...] ??? Who is really doing this "posturing" and mudslinging wihtout good base in fact? Or is the actual person, or group, with the personal agenda---or vendetta? You are of superior credibility---why?"

I don't expect anyone to just take my word for it. The facts speak for themselves. I will give more specific directions. You may draw your own conclusions after due consideration. Take another look at the ISCA website http://www.shuaichiao.com/ . Go to the top right hand corner tab, labeled "News". Click on that. Read the article entitled "The Illegitimate of Shuai Chiao". An example is the criticism of David Chang (grandson of the GM) among many others:

"It is impossible for David Chang to have learned in such a short time what took his grandfather decades of full time training under approximately 70 different teachers."

Most surprising is Chicoine's assumption of awareness regarding GM Chang's relationships with his longtime Taiwanese disciples, and Chang's own family members! It seems rather presumptuous to make such statements as the one above regarding David Chang. The fact that all of the old Chang-lineage Taiwanese SC teachers have fallen under the umbrella of David Chang means something. That David Chang would issue a statement like the one at http://www.changshuaichiao.com/dc_statement.htm means something Maybe Gene Chicoine didn't understand that Taiwan didn't fall under the command of his ISCA (an org meant for foreigners), and that their promotion of him was a sign of good faith meant to speed the spread of SC throughout the world (or at least Taiwan's ally, the USA). Or maybe he just felt too threatened by other teachers to focus on spreading the art.

I cannot believe that Mr. Chicoine was close enough to the Chang's to have known everything about that family and its functionings, or GM Chang's personal relationships with other disciples and students. Especially when considering that Chicoine was/is faced with two major barriers: language and culture. And yet we're supposed to believe that Gene Chicoine somehow learned all of Shuai Chiao after a few stays in Taiwan and GM Chang's visit to the US? How much actual time did Chicoine spent with Chang compared to Chang's Taiwanese students and family? There are other problems in regard to this...

Gene Chicoine appears to be a real pistol. Obviously he is skilled, and his skill and social position led him to be one of a very few non-Taiwanese selected by GM Chang to promote Shuai Chiao to the world. Since that time though, how has he advanced SC? And since he himself calls into question the abilities and competition records of other SC teachers of some repute, what matches, where and with whom did Chicoine actually fight in competiton, in Taiwan or here? Where are Chicoine's records?

No one can dispute that GM Chang gave Gene Chicoine the responsibility of bringing Shuai Chiao to the world. Before Chang's death the ISCA was a constitutional organization which included a number of (non-Taiwanese national) men who had also studied with GM Chang to varying degrees. After Chang's death, Chicoine began to purge the ISCA. The result? More energy spent defending against/ criticizing other schools, less time promoting Shuai Chiao. As a result of this, the ISCA has never really taken off as a strong organization in the US or overseas. This has hurt SC.


M.C. Busman

[lotus storm]

Most surprising is Chicoine's assumption of awareness regarding GM Chang's relationships with his longtime Taiwanese disciples, and Chang's own family members! It seems rather presumptuous to make such statements as the one above regarding David Chang.

Perhaps Chang was the source of Chicoine information of this? Possible?

As a result of this, the ISCA has never really taken off as a strong organization in the US or overseas. This has hurt SC

Chang's art SC or the sport SC he detested? Possible that Chicoine IS acting as Chang wished?

Or maybe he just felt too threatened by other teachers to focus on spreading the art

Doubtful. http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...hp/t-1860.html

To answer a few of MonkeySlap's questions. Chicoine did start out as a karate guy at age 16 (1946) while part of the US Occupational forces. Upon returning to Ohio he started teaching karate and eventually started learning kung fu(early 50's, so that'd make him 20ish, not really late in life). First from Femon Ong, then various others in Taiwan and China I think. Eventually, he became Chang's disciple(1978)and studied under him and Chang's kungfu brother Grandmaster Wang. As far as his fighting ability, he actually beat David Lin in a friendly challenge. He has proven himself many times in challenges, but most people never get to hear about such things. If I recall correctly, seven challenges were made after he became ISCA president, he won them all. He still fights regularly.
As far as competition goes, Chicoine did lots of fighting in Taiwan back in the 70's and 80's. When Chang was still alive, his school did compete in tournaments. However, Chang always stressed to him the importance of not letting sport *******ize the art.

He learned Shuai Chiao, various styles of Hsing I, Tai Chi from Chang. I think he learned Lohan and Pakua from him too, but he may have learned them from someone else previously. He also learned Hsing I from GM Wang, tho Chang often would change small things that Wang had taught him.

How much actual time did Chicoine spent with Chang compared to Chang's Taiwanese students and family?

Hmmm. I have heard an explanation for this, and now here is where politics comes in. I contacted a few people for corroboration (of not just this point in the final 'quote' box but the several others as well) of some things. I was advised (no not threatened, just to avoid needless argument that won't be settled in a bb forum as I do not have ALL the information) that it would be best to post the above link (note that 'falconer' disappears) and say only: consider the possiblity that Chang concluded that it could be left neither to his Chinese contemporaries nor even his own grandson to be trusted with preserving and carrying on his precious art (which was his life, afterall); and that he decided a radical solution might be required to salvage what knowledge he had that there was still time to pass along.

Chicoine made several stern public challenges for a time (that still stand, I am told), no one mentionied in the link you gave ever came forth to meet him---at least, not to reveal the results publicly if such contests did occur.

Why was Chicoine the highest rank in SC---anywhere---aside from Chang himself---while Chang was still alive---if Chicouine is simply "posturing"? Was this for mere appearance? Political? If so, then what was Chang really about that so many who knew his belief and abilities took him so seriously?

Is it possible that certain others---not Chicoine---were waiting to do things their own way once chang was dead; and Chicoine's seemingly strange behaviors as far as SC & ISCA were a result of heading this off?

the facts speak for themselves

Do they? I seem to find a lot of assuming and presuming and "reading into" in your interpreting.

Respectfully---lotus storm

[M.C. Busman]

Originally Posted by lotus storm

Perhaps Chang was the source of Chicoine information of this? Possible? [....]

[after "The Facts Speak for Themselves" at the end]

Originally Posted by lotus storm

Do they? I seem to find a lot of assuming and presuming and "reading into" in your interpreting.

Come on. You can't have it both ways, lotus storm. Who is presuming and reading into what by guessing about sources, intent, etc? Gene Chicoine's comments are out there on his own site! You asked, I showed. Gene Chicoine is the one blustering about challenge matches. The one criticizing virtually every other Shuai Chiao man (or anyone else who ever met Chang Tung-sheng for that matter) out there! Yet Chicoine offers nothing in the way of proof of matches, time in training, etc?

Originally Posted by lotus storm

Chang's art SC or the sport SC he detested? Possible that Chicoine IS acting as Chang wished?

Possible?!! I don't know! Is that what you wish to believe? It is documented that Chang Tung-sheng won a couple national contests in that "sport SC he detested" as a younger man. And on his site Chicoine criticized David Chang...FOR NOT HAVING BEEN IN COMPETITION!!! The sport aspect has always been part of SC! Consider the cereminial garb of the loin-clothed wrestlers on the tombs...

Originally Posted by lotus storm

To answer a few of MonkeySlap's questions. Chicoine did start out as a karate guy at age 16 (1946) while part of the US Occupational forces. Upon returning to Ohio he started teaching karate and eventually started learning kung fu(early 50's, so that'd make him 20ish, not really late in life). First from Femon Ong, then various others in Taiwan and China I think. Eventually, he became Chang's disciple(1978)and studied under him and Chang's kungfu brother Grandmaster Wang. As far as his fighting ability, he actually beat David Lin in a friendly challenge. He has proven himself many times in challenges, but most people never get to hear about such things. If I recall correctly, seven challenges were made after he became ISCA president, he won them all. He still fights regularly.

More questions: With whom/what style of karate did Chicoine study while in the service in Japan? Men who studied in Japan at the time were rare. This would make Chicoine one of the pioneers of Japanese karate, along with Walter Todd and (possibly) Robert Trias. In what art was he ranked 7th dan out of Hong Kong...and by whom? Who did Chicoine fight in challenge matches in Taiwan, in the USA, and as ISCA president? More "friendly matches", students, subordinates, or people from rival organizations? Chang's matches were public and documented--no hiding, no secrets. Just hard training and fierce fighting. Why the secrecy here?

Originally Posted by lotus storm

As far as competition goes, Chicoine did lots of fighting in Taiwan back in the 70's and 80's. When Chang was still alive, his school did compete in tournaments. However, Chang always stressed to him the importance of not letting sport *******ize the art.

Yes, Chang's school did compete in tournaments...still does. Competition has always been part of SC! WHO did Chicoine fight in Taiwan? When? Was this a real competition, or a "school match"? Why is this info so difficult to come by, so unspecific? Are there clippings from Chinese magazines, newspapers? To paraphrase you lotus storm...are we to rely only upon [Gene Chicoine's] word? Or your guesses about what Chang Tung-sheng *MIGHT* possibly have intended? Where is Chicoine's proof, where are his references?

Originally Posted by lotus storm

He learned Shuai Chiao, various styles of Hsing I, Tai Chi from Chang. I think he learned Lohan and Pakua from him too, but he may have learned them from someone else previously. He also learned Hsing I from GM Wang, tho Chang often would change small things that Wang had taught him.

Again...how long did Chicoine train with Chang, when? Can entire arts be transmitted in a few week/month long cram sessions? How did Mr. Chicoine deal with the language barrier...was anything lost or misinterpreted in translation?

Originally Posted by lotus storm

Hmmm. I have heard an explanation for this, and now here is where politics comes in. I contacted a few people for corroboration (of not just this point in the final 'quote' box but the several others as well) of some things. I was advised (no not threatened, just to avoid needless argument that won't be settled in a bb forum as I do not have ALL the information) that it would be best to post the above link (note that 'falconer' disappears) and say only: consider the possiblity that Chang concluded that it could be left neither to his Chinese contemporaries nor even his own grandson to be trusted with preserving and carrying on his precious art (which was his life, afterall); and that he decided a radical solution might be required to salvage what knowledge he had that there was still time to pass along.

Politics aside, what is the source of this theory? Someone who knew Chang personally (who)? Or is this just the most likely explanation for someone who wishes to believe Chicoine has done no wrong? Does it really seem reasonable that Chang Tung-sheng would forsake family and long-term disciples for a man who did not speak his language and didn't have the long-term experience in that art--and not be specific about intending to hand over Authority Over The Entire System? When Chang died, he and Chicoine had had teacher-disciple relationship for only about 8 years...when they were actually together training. Had he wished to make Chicoine the unquestioned GM of SC, surely he could have done that specifically by placing Taiwan under the umbrella of the ISCA...not the other way around?

[continued]

[M.C. Busman]

Originally Posted by lotus storm

Chicoine made several stern public challenges for a time (that still stand, I am told), no one mentionied in the link you gave ever came forth to meet him---at least, not to reveal the results publicly if such contests did occur.

Yes. How nice. He had 7 challenge matches...but neither he or the cghallengers came forward? Just who were they, and what were the circumstances...or are these not known as fact yet? Did they happen or didn't they?!! Beat a 75 year old man, or be defeated by a 75 year old man--you lose either way. There is nothing to gain with such a "challenge". Chicoine is no Chang Tung-sheng.

Originally Posted by lotus storm

Why was Chicoine the highest rank in SC---anywhere---aside from Chang himself---while Chang was still alive---if Chicouine is simply "posturing"? Was this for mere appearance? Political? If so, then what was Chang really about that so many who knew his belief and abilities took him so seriously?

Since you're guessing, I'll venture one of my own--personally I believe it was political. The same reason many American practitioners of Okinawa Karate (especially Tatsuo Shimabuku's Isshin-ryu) returned to the states after their military duties with 6th-9th dan rank--after 1-2 years study!!! And...how seriously did Taiwan take the ISCA in respect to their own power base? Did they consult Gene Chicoine about who to place as the next Shuai Chiao instructor of the Taiwan Police College? Initially Taiwan supported Chicoine. The support faltered when Chicoine Wrongly criticized skilled and recognized men. An outsider should tread lightly. Even more so an outsider who has been entrusted with a great responsibility.

Originally Posted by lotus storm

Is it possible that certain others---not Chicoine---were waiting to do things their own way once chang was dead; and Chicoine's seemingly strange behaviors as far as SC & ISCA were a result of heading this off?

That is the problem...so many things are possible...but Gene Chicoine is the only one behaving strangely! For Gene's version of events (at least the one he alludes to without being too specific) to be true, just about EVERYONE ELSE in the SC universe would have had to turn against him...everyone else in the SC universe is unskilles, false, a pretender...why?

Now here is the sad predicament: Gene Chicoine is obviously a tough hard-working martial artist, a true old head in the USA. I don't think for a second after reading all of his writings and speaking to his students that this man is a wallflower or a pretender. Wherever his training began, however long he trained in SC and/or other arts, I have no doubt he picked up the material and practiced like a maniac until he thought he had it right. He has, or had at one time, resources available to promote SC. BUT...he has this huge barrier standing in the way. Call it ego, control issues, fear, jealousy, righteousness, whatever...he doesn't seem to play well with others. ANY others at all. This is NOT going to benefit Shuai Chiao. This is NOT how to promote a good art with an ancient history. Chang reached out to others--including foreigners who didn't speak his language, he dropped pretentiousness and "secrets" B.S. all together.

It has been almost 15 years...Taiwan has put its sponsorship behind other US Shuai Ciao teachers who are making an effort to spread the art--in spite of what one can still read on the Ho Chun website. Others schools are actively competing interntionally, as Taiwanese schools did when Chang was alive. Chang was not a secretive, closed-door teacher who parsed out bits here and there. His "secrets" were out in the open--hard, repetitive, exhausting training. Even Robert Smith in "Chinese Boxing:Masters and Methods" writes about this (see pages 64-67, 1974:Kodansha).

My Hope is that Mr. Chicoine will come to his senses. Right now he does not appear to be building a path that will last...so other routes have sprung up. He had the ISCA handed to him...and has been fumbling it about since. Chang Tung-sheng 's path however, is very alive, maintained by the students in Taiwan, and the very legitimate students in other nations including the USA. Given the history of the ISCA thusfar however, I am doubtful. This was supposed to be an INTERNATIONAL org. Instead, through manouvering and purges, it has been turned into one man's private association.

Unbelievable.


M.C. Busman

[fa_jing]

"One time when G.M. Chang was watching Master Chicoine fight in a no rules situation, he stated that here was absolutely no one alive that even knew one half of the Shuai Chiao he had attained, including his brother in Mainland China. This statement did not even account for the many Internal and Moslem styles that he also had mastered!"

Who's this, the brother that CTS had stated was better than himself, but lacked the mean streak? Quite a statement. N.F.W.

[Ho Chun]

GM Chicoine has said on numerous occasions that there are plenty of Shuai Chiao people that are better than him (strickly using nothing but Shuai Chiao) He has said numerous times that in his opinion there is nobody as knowledgable in Shuai Chiao and Chin Na in the world, than Jeng Jing Ping, of New York.

Teacher has always openly said these things, but there has to be a good reason for GM Chang to have made him the Vice-President of the ISCA (while he was living) and then to publicly promote him to the rank of 9th Degree Black Belt (putting Teacher right next to him, for the World to see). And then to hand over the raines of the ISCA at the time of his death.

My personal opinion here is: GM Chang wanted the Head if the ISCA to be undefeatable, which has been accomplished. Weather he fought in those "challenge" matches, or if they never happened, the Head of the ISCA has never been beat.

M.C. Busman, you bring up very very good points, so to use one of your points, Robert Smith, wrote in his book, Chinese Boxing: Masters and Methods, Mr. Smith said that in his opinion Shuai Chiao has not, nor will it ever evolve. My question is; how can it evolve?

Shuai Chiao is a very brutal fighting art. I don't think it is for the masses. I think freeplaying in Shuai Chiao is needed, but to a minimum, or it's no different than point fighting at tournaments. I think bad habits can be formed with too much freeplaying. The Art has never evolved, and should never evolve, in my opinion. Shuai Chiao beauty is in the brutality.

I think Gene L. Chicoine, has allowed Shuai Chiao to stay in it's purest form, I think that David Chang, has done his grandfather proud, he has been doing a very good job promoting Shuai Chiao, so has Jeng Jing Ping, David Lin, John Wang, even Daniel Weng. All of these men have been doing Shuai Chiao good, in their own way. Gene Chicoine's way is very different, very harsh, but it's been the way he has thought to best serve his Father, and his Father's Art. I can honestly say that I don't always agree with the way he says things, or the way he handles things, but he has done Shuai Chiao good.

I hope this helps
www.noweightsworkout.com

[lotus storm]

M.C. Busman, YouKnowWho, Ho Chun, thank you very much for the feedback.

Interesting.

Respectfully---lotus storm.

[Dale Dugas]

Funny that mc politicalman seems to want to bust aggies over all this stuff.

Kudos to Ho Chun, and youknowwho and Lotus Storm for showing some decent Wu De/Mo Duk in responding to the mud being flung.

Chang gave Master Chicoine the keys to the ISCA. enough said in my book.

You don't like it, so what. Train your stuff and be done with it then.

Unless you have some OCD about it. Then your up a creek without a paddle.

Great to see all the Shuai Jiao people teaching.

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[M.C. Busman]

Originally Posted by fa_jing

"One time when G.M. Chang was watching Master Chicoine fight in a no rules situation, he stated that here was absolutely no one alive that even knew one half of the Shuai Chiao he had attained, including his brother in Mainland China. This statement did not even account for the many Internal and Moslem styles that he also had mastered!"

Chang was referring to his opinion of his own skills & not Chicoine's--assuming he was paraphrased correctly. The ref to "Moslem styles" is a hint.

Originally Posted by Ho Chun

M.C. Busman, you bring up very very good points, so to use one of your points, Robert Smith, wrote in his book, Chinese Boxing: Masters and Methods, Mr. Smith said that in his opinion Shuai Chiao has not, nor will it ever evolve. My question is; how can it evolve?

Hmm. I don't know if it needs to. Smith said, "Although [Shuai Chiao] may have fathered judo, it has failed to keep pace with it" , and also, " As far as I know, it is not practiced at all in Southeast Asia. Shang lamented that the Nationalist [Taiwanese] government did little to promote it, but I believe that shuai chiao lost out simply because it had not evolved" (pg. 65). But...is it really necessary for SC to evolve? Smith singled out for criticism the breakfalls of SC in comparison to judo (Smith was an experienced judo student). Through his experience he found them ineffective, and opined that judo-style breakfalls were more practical. Since Judo was Smith's first MA, he was already used to the judo way of doing things. Would a SC man practicing judo for a year with a master teacher feel the same?

Technique wise, most of us know that any martial art that has a sport element, or even practice against another person has to adopt a degree of change -holding back in practice, tap outs, etc protect-thy-partner- for safety's sake. SC is a historic art...I personally do not believe change is necessary for proponents of historic martial arts. This is why they're arts w/ a history, and not just a hodge-podge of anything from anywhere. On the practical side, for arguement's sake, and in general...if a better method of breakfall, a more efficient way to throw/strike is tested and proven...is it BAD to include/replace w/ the "new way"? Isn't evolution part of MA too--whatever works? Chang Tung-sheng himself had many teachers, and is said to have changed things to suit a purpose.

Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

Jing Hsin Ping's SC is good and there is no doubt about that, Jing had saved a woman away from a knife robbery in the street of NYC. Jing took the bad guy's knife away with only his bare hands. That took a lots of guts and join locking ability to be able to stand up and act as hero in a tough place like NYC. Jing's name was on the newspaper for his excellent behavior.

Apologies if this has already been posted...a true mensch in Jeng Hsin-ping: http://www.shuaijiao.net/
I hope we see more of Chang Tung-sheng's most senior student!

Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

I have seen Chicoine's demo on his concret blocks striking in Ohio. His palm strike was real and there is no doubt about his CMA ability too.

No doubt, no denying. Gene Chicoine has skill. But if it isn't passed on, if the art is overshadowed and blotted out by the desire to jocky for position and attain recognition as THE one...

Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

The meaning of "Ho Chun" means "be harmony and friendly with others" and I do believe the relationship between Ho Chun school and the rest of the SC community will get more harmony in the future. I believe that was GM Chang's last wish. After all, Chicoine is a nice and fun guy to be around as long as he is on your side.

What a wonderful name for a school. This is the tragedy, and what I find frustrating. Skill + Bullheaded = If Chang Tung-sheng was sending a message or hint to anyone, I'd be tempted to believe that Ho Chun was a guidepost not (yet!) followed. This is why the ISCA unnecessarily languishes. I don't want Chicoine to be just a footnote in MA history. That is why I am asking the questions and examining the issue like many others.

Originally Posted by Dale Dugas

"Funny that mc politicalman seems to want to bust aggies over all this stuff."

I'm sorry the discussion hasn't remained at a level of inanity you can be comfortable with. You are free to take your name-calling and your "aggies" (?!!) and play in someone else's yard


Y'all Enjoy the Day,

M.C. Busman

[Dale Dugas]

MCBM,

Actually the level of this thread is not really in question. Unlike yourself, I can raise and lower at will depending on the people involved.

I did state in an earlier post that I wondered why you were all up in arms about this so-called situation.

You were the one to start slinging mud about GM Chicoine and other SC teachers. Great that Grandmaster Chang's grandson is wanting to pursue the "family" art. But the simple answer is this. GM Chang gave the ISCA to GM Chicoine, and not to any family member. That speaks volumes. Rant all you want. David Chang did not receive it and the people in Taiwan have not given it to him.

Again you seem to have all this pent up passive aggressive tension within you about SC. Do you study it?

I again ask why you seem so concerned about the future of SC seemingly going to lose out.

GM Chicoine is teaching his students. His student, Ho Chun, is actively pursuing dissemination of GM Chicoines material through his school and website.
Http://www.noweightsworkout.com You really cannot say that GM Chicoine is not passing on his skills. GM Chicoine has taught me his Iron Palm method. He also showed me some nasty ways to apply the hands when you have attained some skill in this dying art.

GM Jeng Shing Peng is teaching his students as well. There was a small blurb in IKF magazine a while back that GM Peng is out of retirement to teach another generation of people his SC skills.

Most if not all the SC teachers are teaching their students.

The art will survive as arts have survived over the milennia.

Are you feeling the need to change SC for some reason? Are you having issues with certain techniques? Falling methods?

As for namecalling, at least I use my real name when I post and do not hide behind usernames. You want to step up? Step up, then. If not keep posting inane drivel and whine on about how the future is bleak because you feel the leadership of the ISCA is not what you want.

You do this with presidents and politics too?



Dale Dugas

[M.C. Busman]

Originally Posted by Dale Dugas

[...]GM Chang gave the ISCA to GM Chicoine, and not to any family member. That speaks volumes.

Yes, Chang Tung-sheng "gave" Chicoine the presidency of the ISCA...and Chicoine has "run" it...into the ground drive out virtually everybody, essentially nullifying the constitution set in place while Chang was alive. Simple fact, no use to get defensive.

Originally Posted by Dale Dugas

Rant all you want. David Chang did not receive it and the people in Taiwan have not given it to him.

Eh, you've got the ranting pretty welll covered. Taiwan certainly had no need for the ISCA...that was an org which was supposed to bring SC to the world or at least the USA. Don't you get it? The ISCA was for NON-Taiwanese. The USSCA and Combat SC stepped in long ago to fill the void the ISCA left. Are you still struggling to understand what this discussion is about?

Originally Posted by Dale Dugas

Again you seem to have all this pent up passive aggressive tension within you about SC.

You can see what you want to see, Dale. That's O.K. First you should look within. Transference will only hinder you and distract from the point.

Originally Posted by Dale Dugas

I again ask why you seem so concerned about the future of SC seemingly going to lose out.

You're confusing the future of SC with the ISCA. The two are on very different paths. SC has a future.

Originally Posted by Dale Dugas

[...]You really cannot say that GM Chicoine is not passing on his skills. GM Chicoine has taught me his Iron Palm method. He also showed me some nasty ways to apply the hands when you have attained some skill in this dying art.

Didn't say Chicoine isn't passing on his skills. Go back...re-read. Think and consider carefully before you type rashly.

Originally Posted by Dale Dugas

GM Jeng Shing Peng is teaching his students as well. There was a small blurb in IKF magazine a while back that GM Peng is out of retirement to teach another generation of people his SC skills.

No kidding. He's feeling better, been able to do some coaching lately. http://www.shuaijiao.net/ a-gain.

Originally Posted by Dale Dugas

Most if not all the SC teachers are teaching their students.[...]The art will survive as arts have survived over the milennia.[...]Are you feeling the need to change SC for some reason? Are you having issues with certain techniques? Falling methods?

Are you? A little brush up on reading comprehension wouldn't hurt you, either. Changing SC=not the point. SC is SC.

Originally Posted by Dale Dugas

As for namecalling, at least I use my real name when I post and do not hide behind usernames. You want to step up?Step up, then. If not keep posting inane drivel and whine on about how the future is bleak because you feel the leadership of the ISCA is not what you want. You do this with presidents and politics too?

I've used my real name on the 'net since '94. As for your discomfort with politics in the martial arts, they're unavoidable, and no reason for you to chase your tail or froth.

An honest discussion about this has been brewing for long enough. Criticism for the way Gene Chicoine has handled the ISCA issue is overdue. A man (and students) who still makes noises about being the darling of the SC crowd in Taiwan, uses GM Chang's name to further himself, and maintains a website which makes questionable statements about other legitimate SC folks (~or is it inane whining from Chicoine because others didn't see things as he wanted? ) who have proven themselves through competition and coaching, can expect criticism.

If Gene Chicoine can't run the ISCA after all his efforts to purge other original members, after all his promises to spread SC THAT HE MADE TO GM CHANG, he should pass the duties on to someone who can. Sure, w/ active SC associations going right now, it isn't necessary...but wouldn't it be nice for something GM Chang had such hope for to have an actual legacy, not just an outdated website leading...nowhere?? It is a simple practical matter, really. You should try to consider the facts and leave distracting emotions out of it. Walking in circles when angry will only make you dizzier.


Have a Super Day

M.C. Busman