Mantis Body?

[Eddie]

I have been studying Choy Lay Fut and Northern Shaolin for many years now, and about a year ago, I started leanring Taiji Meihua tanglangquan with my Shaolin Sifu (master Wong Guang Quan) ‘s son. I never intended in learning mantis, it just kind of happened. Im greatful for that now.

My problem is. I am a pretty big fellow, Im 1.93m tall and weigh about 100 kilos. As I mention, my background is in CLF, which I still think is a very good style, and I am still loyal to this style. Im struggling to “ loosen up” , and Im struggling to get my body work right. In the beginning, the stances were the biggest problem for me, it just felt very sloppy, but Im getting used to it now.

My Kung Fu brother (and mantis teacher) is just one of those “ prodigy” type kids. Having grown up in a kung fu family (his father is the guy who played the emperor in the Movie shaolin temple with jet li). He studied tongbeiquan before learning mantis, and so he is very used to the loose body work. He doesn’t always understand my problem that much, so I thought that there must be others in this forum who had the same problems when they first started learning.

I really enjoy the mantis, and I feel the difference this style has made in my CLF and xiaobeiquan. I would like to get more proficient in this style. I never give up once I try something, and Im getting pretty annoyed with myself.

There must be other bigger guys who also study TJMHTLQ ? Would someone be able to give me some advice on how to develop better and looser body type for this style? Any Advice, recommendations or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

So far, I have learned the first summarised form, and White monkey stealing peach. Tonight I saw him perform 8 hands (I think) and wagon turner (that’s all he called them) and it made me even more eager to learn.

Thanks in advance.
Eddie

[Three Harmonies]

Eddie,
First and foremost do not get down on yourself. I am 6'3" 220 Pounds (pics on my site)! Not huge, but not tiny either. I have some other friends like Oso who is not tiny by any means.
I have dealt with all you are feeling and thinking right now. I still struggle with some of it, but ultimately I can care less how I look. I always think my sets look like ****. Yet I have placed in every tournament I have gone too. What counts in the end is how deep your understanding is, not how you look.
As for relaxing.....it takes time brother. Depending on what background you have (I do not just mean kung fu either), and your profession etc. I have a computer guy that trains with me, as well as a businessman that owns 5 different companies. Both of their shoulders are rock hard and unmovable!! For different reasons of course, but none the less tense beyond belief. They have been training a year and have made great improvements. Sometimes it is not just kung fu though. Lifestyle changes have to come as well for things such as chronic tension, stress etc.
Hang in there, and train diligently. I can offer some other relaxation exercises if you wish.

Cheers
Jake

[Eddie]

Three harmonies,
Thanks for the advice. Glad someone actually understand what Im going through.
I would really appreciate it if you can recommend some exercises for me, if possible.

Regards
Eddie

[spiralstair]

This works very well.
http://www.tomdrum.com/nots.php
Loosens the 4 majors.(hips,shoulders)
Simple, effective, gives as much as you put in. Just like mantis kung fu.
Good luck.

[Three Harmonies]

First of all many folks do not know where they are tense. Go thorugh from head to toes and group muscles together. For instance neck and head muscles, tense all of these as much as possible for 3-4 seconds, and then release the tension totally. Do this a few times, then move on to other muscle groups, etc.
I will write more later, but this should give you a good idea where you are tense, and what the difference is between tense and relaxed.

Jake

[mantid1]

I would like to recommend the silk reeling exercises from Chen Style Tai Chi.

I have started training in Chen style (a step up from my Yang style) a little over a year ago and I can see a a big difference "body movement".

While considering your question I looked into my own Praying mantis training to see If I had ever been taught any exercises specifically to deal with the problem you are having. I have not and have not spoken with anyone who has. I always just watched my teacher and tried to pick it up from there. I have been taught about the five different circles of the body from TJMH but that does not do much to develop the techniques and "body connection".

After thinking about this I am going to take my silk reeling exercises much more serious! I knew my teacher had a reason for teaching them to me!

You should be able to buy a tape with the exercises on them. I dont see a problem with getting them off of tape because you arnt trying to learn Chen Style or Praying Mantis just some exercises to help with flexibility and "body connection".

Thanks for reminding me I need to practice this stuff!

[Eddie]

I also study Chen Taiji, or rather I basically just started. When I talk about tense, im not really talking about muscular stiffness. Its hard to describe. Its as if I feel that my whole body is not loose enough to move in this way. I’ll post more tomorrow. Thanks for all the replies so far.
Ed

[mantid1]

Just dont expect any big break throughs over night. Remember the translation of Kung Fu.

[yu shan]

Great you are learning Tanglang. Mantid1 is so right, dont expect results overnight. I have been doing Mantis for 15 years and I am still trying to get it right. Enjoy what you are learning and dont sweat the small stuff.

[bung bo]

I've never practiced anything southern but I think I see what you mean about the differences in how they move. It will take a bit of time before you start "moving like a mantis."

What Jake said is a good way to find tension in your body. He is closer to your size than I am--5'9 140lbs. One of the things that helped me get loose was (believe it or not) being injured. It hurt too much to do the moves with much power so I practiced real soft. When I got a little better I could do them with more power and I was more relaxed. That's what I do:feel the interconnectedness of your body and start off soft and add more power as you progress.

[Three Harmonies]

Bung Bu has a great point. We always seem to think the bigger, the faster, the stronger THE BETTER!!! Right!? Not always. Over the summer both of my teachers made a similar comment, slow down and realy feel what you are doing! This has helped in more ways than I can explain, and it may help with your tension issues.
Jake

[Eddie]

thanks for the help. bung bo I htink you understand my problem. It just doenst feel right to be too relaxed, so I guess its just more training for me.

I can seriously see how this will influence my san da skill, so Im more than happy.

Any famous Mantis San Da fighters (talking about tournament san da/shou)?

[Three Harmonies]

Eddie
My teacher (as well as me) teach Mantis techniques that can easily utilized in the ring with boxing gloves on. Too many people get too wrapped up in grabbing with their hands in Mantis and often are blind to the fact that one can use the gloves just as easily without sacrificing technique.
One thing that comes to mind when you talk about being too relaxed..... in the Shanxi Xing Yi I practice, we move a bit faster than Taiji speed and a lot of people comment that it cannot be REAL Xing Yi because they are used to the explosiveness they see 99% of the time. The reason we train slowly (does not include fighting, just forms and sets) is so we can be aware of our structure (or lack thereof ). Without proper structure in ANY art, you cannot develope and issue maxium power. That is a fact! So we spend a lot of time ensuring our posture is proper. Not that other styles do not, many styles will focus on proper structure when static, but lose it in transition.
Going at a reduced speed not only makes one aware of structure, but also forces you to have complete control over your momentum. If you can control your momentum...well, you are basically walking around with a cannon inside you! This is what everyone talks about in reference to whole body power. Timing, momentum, and structure. Key!
So my rambling point is..... do not think just because Mantis is a fast system that you cannot benefit from slowing it down and analyzing! This has been most helpful in my practice, and has helped me reach levels and goals much quicker and with a better understanding of the art. I used to have the same problem (and many more ) as you.
I hope this helps. If you all are ever interested I would love to visit your country and teach a semianr or two. Just let me know!

Cheers
Jake

[bung bo]

Eddie--I understand this problem because it is my biggest problem. I think you should keep on with your taiji. Taiji has so many benefits. It will help you find tension and eliminate it as well as help your structure. Those are the 2 things you should work on the most:eliminate tension and make your structure as correct as possible. Just like Jake said:to issue maximum power.

Great post, Jake.

[Laviathan]

Dear Eddie,

I am a small guy, but as you know, I have also learned Hung Gar and Choy Li Fut prior to learning Taiji Meihua Tanglang. So I kinda understand what you mean: I am very tensed (actually, good Hung Gar and CLF should be both relaxed and supple) and without relaxation my Mantis just does not get better. Also, I was used to the very firm stances of Southern Boxing, and learning the agile footwork of Taiji Meihua just felt rather odd. Fortunately, I have found a teacher who really stresses Mantis and Tongbei basics, and by training them, my body is finally starting to loosen up a little.

The thing is: each style of kungfu has its distinct flavour. Mantis, in my opinion, has a very unique flavour in that it incorporates many aspects from other styles with a result which is more than the sum of all things added. "The Long Fist of the Great Ancestor is the Father, while Han Tong's Tongbei is the Mother". Mantis is a short (duanda) system but its foundation is based on the elongated movements from Changquan and the loose relaxed body movements of Tongbei. Your teacher Chris, apart from being extremely talented, has learned both Northern Shaolin and Tongbei, so it is logical that he can pick up Mantis somewhat easier. From my experience in Beijing, it seems that Xingyi players can adapt to Six Harmony Mantis relatively easily. It's all about flavours.

I don't know if this makes any sense, but I really think that Mantis has a very strange "flow" and "flavour", which is very difficult to grasp. It is a very advanced system, and it certainly takes a lot of time before one can "move like a Mantis".

Suffice to say that I view Mantis as a style with a rather high threshold: it seems like the system assumes that the practitioner has already mastered a previous style which fits the requirements for Mantis.

You have trained CLF and Shaobei, and you are used to long movements, which is good for Mantis. But if you feel you cannot relax, then I would suggest you to stop your CLF and Shaobei training for a while. To use some Chinese philosophy: avoid the Yang flavour of CLF and Shaobei for a short period of time, in order to be able to taste the Yin flavour of Mantis. Just my two cents, though...

Other experienced posters like Yu Shan and Bung Bu have already given a lot of pointers. Also, Jake (Three Harmonies) comes from the same lineage as Chris and I (his teacher Hu Xilin and our teacher Ma Hanqing were both disciples of Grandmaster Ma Hanqing), he is familiar with the style you are training, so his advice will definitely help you a lot.

Forgive me for my rant.

Greetings,

René