Xin Yi / Xing Yi where forth art thou?

[Sal Canzonieri]

here's a frustrating thread I have in the KF research, if anyone has any input, I'd love to discuss it:

1- What did Ji Long Feng (Ji Ji Ke) learn exactly?
2 - Who really were his students?
3- What are the roots of Xin yi ? Xing Yi?
4 - Where did the various forms from the various styles come from?


Question 2 is a bone of contention for a lot of people.
There seems to be no real evidence that he taught anyone of the 3 people that are attributed to be his direct students.

Cao Ji Wu there is no real link whatsoever, only in passing legend, erroneously passed from one Xing Yi teacher to another.
He might not even had been in the area to have had contact. He is not featured in the local historical gazettes.

Ma Xueli of Loyang, people from his city say he did not learn from Ji Long Feng, that a "wandering Taoist" visited him and passed on what became Xin Yi Liu Ho style of Henan Province (this Liu Ho is not the same as what is generally known as Six Harmony style, it is a Moslem style that is named after the six cornered hats they wear.).

And, there is the mystery of the Dai family style of Shanxi Province.
Dai Long Bang was said to have studied under Cao Ji Wu, which is untrue.
In fact, he learned the 10 Animals of Henan Xin Yi from Li Zheng, who was a student of Zhang Zhi Cheng, who was a student of Ma Xue Li.
Some martial arts historians claim that Cao Jiwu not only did not teach Xinyiquan to Dai Longbang, but was not related to Xinyiquan at all. The common believe that Cao was Dai Longbang’s teacher comes from another believe – that the "Introduction to Xinyiquan Boxing Manual" (Liu He Quan Xu) was written by Dai. However, there is no name below the text and there is no evidence Dai actually wrote it. While most Xingyiquan practitioners consider the "Introduction" to be a document of historical value, more and more researchers doubt its authenticity. Some even claim it is a forgery made out in Shanxi at the end of 19th century.

Dai Long Bang ladded the Five Elements and Three Fist forms to Henen 10 Animal Xin Yi to form: Dai Family Xin Yi Quan

Dai learned:

- Yi Quan of Shanxi Province, which is his family style, where the Five Elements and Three Fists forms come from originally.
These five elements are the same as in Shaolin Lohan 18 Hands forms (that's another thread!)

- Yue Fei style from Niu Xi Xian, who descends from Niu Gao, Yue Fei's Army Officer.

- Six Harmony Mantis from Jin Shi Kui, who was from Shandong Province. The Four Routines of Za Shi come from Jin Shi Kui.
I have looked him up on Mantis geneology charts and I have found him listed as a early found of Six Harmony Mantis, and that he traveled a lot and was missing from Shandong Province for many years, which of course is because he was in Shanxi teaching Dai Long Bang! That's a major piece of research that no one put two and two together about before!

- Henan Xin Yi Quan, 10 animal forms, which he learned from Li Zheng, who is of Ma Xue Li's lineage.

SO, that is how Xing Yi Quan got these forms into their system from Dai Long Bang's lineage.

[NorthernShaolin]

Sal,

Even though many of us practice Hsing-i here, this question should be moved to the Nei Jia section where many of the internal historians and theorians (deep thinkers? on this subject) hang out.

Questions 1 & 2 are really tough because not much if any has been written and preserved with time concerning him.

Question 3: well I'll let them (the Nei Jai guys) tell you what they believe.

Question 4: This can be answered because there are existing documents that I've read years ago that states where and when each of the various sets came to existance and also when Hsing-i started to branch out. I just can't remember where I read it.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Question 4, where did forms come from?

Well, the above explains where forms that decend from Dai family come from that eventually became the main core (Five Elements) of Xing Yi Quan of Hebei Province.

Henan Xin Yi is a real mystery.
It is not like other Xing Yi ? Xin Yi styles.
For sure it is various Moslem martial arts mixed with something new.
Around Henan province, Yue Fei Jia Quan and style with various names but the same style like Wu Mu Quan are practiced since Song/Yuan Dynasty times.
These style practice forms or loose techniques that are very similar to Liu Ho (Six Harmony Quan) forms that are found in other provinces. I think for some reason people started calling Yue Fei family forms as Six Harmony Quan, but they are the same stuff in essence.
Liu Di Kan for one example practiced Yue Fei forms and called the style Six Harmony.

One interesting thing:
Ba Qua and Xin Yi share many of the same moves (just called different names but they are the same exact moves).
Well, it is well documented now that Dong Hai Chuan's family style was Ba Fan Quan, that he practiced with his uncle, etc., also called Ba Shan Fan, also now called Fan Tzi Quan. A side by side comparison of moves and their names was done by research scholars and they were found to be identical.

Well, Zhou Tong, who was Yue Fei's teacher, taught a style that is Fan Tzi and Chuo Jiao Quan combined, as all his students attested.

Hence, the similarities of sharing identical moves and sequences in forms between Ba Qua and Xing Yi / Xin Yi, they both have their roots in Fan Tzi/Chuo Jiao.

Fantzi/Chuo Jiao which was a root of Yue Fei Family styles (Fan tzi mixed with various styles that army officer practiced from all over the place, mostly loose techniques and smal forms, of cannon fist like movements),
which then splintered over the centuries into Six Harmony, Henan Xin Yi, and Eagle Claw (when Yue Fei mixed back with Fan Tzi).

So, that is somehow how Yue Fei is credited to being the founder of Six Harmony Quan, Xing Yi, and Eagle Claw.
It's not that he was the actual founder, it's that his feedback loop with what came before and after his connection to Fan Tzi / Chuo Jiao Quan.

(here's an aside to Zhou Tong's Fan Tzi, the style of Yan Qing (also called Mi-Tsong or Lost Track Shaolin Quan), is when the forms are analyzed pretty much only Fan Tzi / Chuo Jiao and old Shaolin mixed together. Some of Zhou Tong's students are part of Yan Qing's lineage).

For another thread:
Tai Tzu, Han Tong Tong Bei, and Northern Mantis and Fan Tzi (and Yan Qing Shaolin) share not only many moves in their forms, but also people in their ancestry, all students of Zhou Tong.

[GeneChing]

...we have a piece on the Wu Gulun sect of Shaolin Xin Yi Ba coming out in our next issue. Maybe it's a good time to subscribe

[Sal Canzonieri]

Thanks, I will post it in both forums, so that the most people will be able to see it and respond.

Originally posted by NorthernShaolin
Sal,

Even though many of us practice Hsing-i here, this question should be moved to the Nei Jia section where many of the internal historians and theorians (deep thinkers? on this subject) hang out.

Questions 1 & 2 are really tough because not much if any has been written and preserved with time concerning him.

Question 3: well I'll let them (the Nei Jai guys) tell you what they believe.

Question 4: This can be answered because there are existing documents that I've read years ago that states where and when each of the various sets came to existance and also when Hsing-i started to branch out. I just can't remember where I read it.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Originally posted by GeneChing
...we have a piece on the Wu Gulun sect of Shaolin Xin Yi Ba coming out in our next issue. Maybe it's a good time to subscribe

I'm pretty sure that Shaolin Xin Yi Ba (and Lohan)
was what Zhou Tong studied when he went to Shaolin,
cause almost the whole Xin Yi Ba form's moves are inside
whole sections of Fan Tzi forms, their most oldest forms.
I'd say more than 80% of the moves in the forms are identical to each other.

[sambogin]

I do not know a lot about Xingyi and Xinyiba or even Wugulun but I came across the website of Master Shi Dejian and that of his disciples. There are some amazing videos on the website. I am not quite sure what he is demonstrating. What do you think? Any Xinyiba? I suppose that is unlikely given it is a bit of a close guarded secret.


www.shaolindj.com
www.freewebs.com/wugulun

[MasterKiller]

You'd probably be better served taking this question to http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/y...B.cgi/YaBB.cgi

[r.(shaolin)]

sambogin

This is old school traditional northern Shaolin as we practice it - best seen in video 4.
I am sure, as in the tradition I practice, these are from two man sets which also
have counter sequences. Its great to see that at least some of the tradition of authentic
Shaolin has survived.

r.

[GeneChing]

I'm working on trying to get more on Shi Dejian's Xin Yi Ba lineage - something for the e-zine hopefully. You can contact Shi Dejian directly at wugulun@hotmail.com or sldy@shaolindj.com - you'll probably only get one of his disciples, but that's a start. Of course, they only speak mandarin...

[Sal Canzonieri]

The 18 Lohan Hands two person form, Lo Han Shi Ba Shou, (and a related set called 8 Step Linked Fist, Ba Bu Lian Quan)
is finally out on VCD and is available here:
http://www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd3/coll_huaboxing.htm

This 18 Lohan form is the one I have always been talking about.
This Hua Quan lineage claims that they created these forms.
But, I have some other books on the forms from China that say these
forms (18 Lohan Hands, 8 Step Linked Fist) are much older and among
Shaolin's oldest forms.

Now, interesting thing about the Hua Quan style is that their 5 Animals found in their forms are these: Tiger, Dragon, Leopard, Monkey, and Eagle.

I have learned this 18 Lohan Hands forms from three different sources, none of whom knew anything about Hua Quan claiming they created the form.
Each source taught me the forms the same way each time, no variations in the moves.

Okay, from what I see, since I also learned Sun Lu Tang Xing Yi and also some others styles of Xing Yi, I clearly see when I do this 18 Lohan form that the first five movements are the same in FUNCTIONALITY, all you have to do is slightly change the emphasis of the moves, of the Five Elements (in the more ancient pre-Xing Yi order): Pi, Zuan, Beng, Pao, and Heng (Metal, Water, Wood, Fire, and Earth).
Also, I can find almost all 12 animals that are found in Xing Yi in this form too, with slight variation. Hawk, Tiger, Horse, Eagle, Bear, Sparrow, Rooster, etc, all are hidden in the moves.

Now, the questions are:
- how old is this form really?
- if it is really old, is it possible that Ji Ji Ke/ Ji Long Feng, the founder of Xin Yi Quan
learned this 18 Lohan Hands and Xin Yi Ba from Shaolin to initiate his own style, and then his followers obviously have added to this to further develop his Xin Yi into the various regional versions and finally into Xing Yi Quan?

Also, my observations:
- The first move in this form, which I relate to Pi, is Eagle Seizes the Throat, and had two eagle claw grips. The move is done on the a left side and the right side at the beginning of the form.
- the second move, which I relate to Zuan, is a lot like Monkey is done in older XY styles. It is also like Crane is done in Five Animals style.
- the third move, which I relate to Beng is done like Leopard (Cat) in XY and 5 Animals.
- the fourth move, which I relate to Pao and is indeed called Pao Quan in this form, is done like Tiger in XY and 5 Animals.
- the fifth move, which I relate to Heng, is done like Dragon in older XY styles and is indeed called Dragon Subduing Hand in this form.

The rest of the moves also show a lot in common with the XY animal forms.

At r.(shaolin)'s site: he says that Bai Yu Feng created sets based on 10 animals (and 12 were to be created, but BYF didn't finish them). What are the 10-12 animals? Important because these sets were created before Ji Long Feng went to Shaolin.

[r.(shaolin)]

Hi Sal
According to our lineage, the 12 sets created by Venerable Jue Yuan and Qiu Yue Chan Shi use twelve stepping patterns (xing zou) and the following 10 animals.
Dragon
Tiger
Leopard
Crane
Snake
Pelican
Monkey
Elephant
Mustang/horse
Buffalo

r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hi Sal
According to our lineage, the 12 sets created by Venerable Jue Yuan and Qiu Yue Chan Shi use twelve stepping patterns (xing zou) and the following 10 animals.
Dragon
Tiger
Leopard
Crane
Snake
Pelican
Monkey
Elephant
Mustang/horse
Buffalo

r.

Very interesting.
Never heard of pelican or buffalo forms, wish I could see them someday.

Do you know the name of the 12 sets?

Also, I am would love any info on Bai Yu Feng, such as his info about his supposed teacher being from Loyang and of the Ma family.
I wonder if this same Ma was an ancestor of the Ma family in Loyang that is famous for their XY?

Forgot to ask this: what about the 13 Claws form taught sometimes at Shaolin, that is attributed to Bai Yu Feng.

Also, do you know what forms are attributed to Li Su, who came to Shaolin with Bai Yu Feng?
I know that there are two totally different Da Hong Quan forms at Shaolin, one is the same style as their classic Xiao Hong Quan and barely ever taught any more.
The other is Da Hong Quan is what is commonly taught and this form is often attributed to Li Su.
Also, I heard that there is a Lohan form that is attributed to Li Su that has the five animals in it and it is nothing like the other lohan forms there.

Any input someone?

[r.(shaolin)]

Shen Long Xian Zhao;
Shen Long Chu Zha;
Shen Long San Bu/shen Long Bai Wei;
Wu Xing Hu Shou;
Wu Xing Long Shou;
Long Hu Zheng Sheng;
Shen Long Sheng Tian;
Shen Long Hua Shui;
Er Long Duo Zhu;
Shen Long Shi Er Bu;
Pan Long Gun;
Long Yin Jian

I know that Li Shu is mentioned in "Shaolin Si Ji" the Qing Dynasty compilation, our tradition makes no mention of him.

Bai Yu Feng came from Shensi Province, and while in secular life, he was already known as an expert in the narrow blade sword (i.e. jian). Note that in our tradition one of the 12 sets is a narrow blade set. I would guess that Bai Yu Feng must have been well educated because, according to our tradition, after becaming a monk at Shaolin, he worked there as a librarian.

r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Are these "Long" as in Dragon?

I am very interested in the story of BaiYu Feng and Li Sou (and his son)
coming to Shaolin with Monk Juan.
I'd like to find out really happened and who taught what.

Also I am interested in what martial arts come out of Loyang.