Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[BoulderDawg]

Originally Posted by Judge Pen

Sal is a historian. My best friend is a historian. They tend to romanticize the past as some type of ideal. At least in my experience.

When I was in Amsterdam I came across a street vendor who was painting replicas of Vah Gogh's painting......beautiful work and to my untrained eye I could not tell the difference. However there is no art involved. If there is then I guess my copy machine is a grand master!

But you are right. Some of us see and hear things that we want to be true.

[bawang]

Originally Posted by brucereiter

thanks ...
the csc atlanta where i learned have the "internal" and "external" programs split up so you can learn just "internal" or where you can learn "external" where at some level you would be taught internal too.

does that help the confusion?

is a shaolin do a style or a organization? most styles dont take forms from other styles for no reason

i think you guys taking all those forms from other styles is strange

if you dont mind taking forms why dont you guys learn some forms from the real shaolin in songshan china

[kwaichang]

Sal do you do forms EXACTLY like your teachers same angles etc. If you say yes you are lying that would imply you are perfect , if no then you arent doing it RIGHT. So you may be close . BTW i have seen tai chi at a SD school as good at the rules / vids as you referenced. I dont know who you have seen but I would love to see a vid of yours so I can see Perfect form KC

[tattooedmonk]

Originally Posted by tattooedmonk

everyone makes mistakes....period. I have seen more mistakes by noteable famous masters than anyone else I have ever watched.....BFD

Sal is an elitist......

Sorry ...and a fairly good historian

[tattooedmonk]

Originally Posted by Judge Pen

Sal is a historian. My best friend is a historian. They tend to romanticize the past as some type of ideal. At least in my experience.

It's like when I posted some of my fight videos on you-tube. One guy e-mailed me to discuss my fight. He, a wu shu practitioner, was critical because my fight did not look like kung-fu. I was punching, kicking and throwing, but it didn't look as crisp as he would like to see. His counter-example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG366AHzI2U.

HAHAHA Would you consider your fighting style to be like "KUNGFU" or "KUNGFU" like??

[tattooedmonk]

Originally Posted by bawang

is a shaolin do a style or a organization? most styles dont take forms from other styles for no reason

i think you guys taking all those forms from other styles is strange

if you dont mind taking forms why dont you guys learn some forms from the real shaolin in songshan china

Some would say it is both.

THis is how I understand it ...

It is an organization of schools that warehouse , teach, practice many CMA styles and forms.

NOT all of them are considered to be Shaolin by many.

The "Standardized" shaolin forms, other than some of the Internal forms, are not taught or practiced within the ORG/SYSTEM.

Because of the history, methods of teaching as well as the size of the ORG. come under great scrutiny.

Many of the stories about the SYSTEM origins have been the largest topic of conversation.....

Some would say it is Sin The` style!

What else do you want to know??

[Judge Pen]

Originally Posted by bawang

is a shaolin do a style or a organization? most styles dont take forms from other styles for no reason

i think you guys taking all those forms from other styles is strange

if you dont mind taking forms why dont you guys learn some forms from the real shaolin in songshan china

bawang, from my research I believe that there were several teachers at Sin The's school in indonesia that taught their own material. I also believe that Ie was a forms collector himself and that he traveled extensivly picking up what he could. I think that is why there are so many bits a pieces of different systems that have been taught and blended at SD. Which makes it a patchwork quilt and not cut from whole cloth. But the quality of the sticthing is the real issue that I'm concerned with.

[Judge Pen]

Originally Posted by tattooedmonk

HAHAHA Would you consider your fighting style to be like "KUNGFU" or "KUNGFU" like??

If it works then its kung fu. I don't care what it looks like.

[sean_stonehart]

Originally Posted by tattooedmonk

HAHAHA Would you consider your fighting style to be like "KUNGFU" or "KUNGFU" like??

After being on the receiving end of his fists... straight forward. Even drunk.

[brucereiter]

Originally Posted by bawang

is a shaolin do a style or a organization? most styles dont take forms from other styles for no reason

i think you guys taking all those forms from other styles is strange

if you dont mind taking forms why dont you guys learn some forms from the real shaolin in songshan china

i would think "shaolin do" is a organization and a style. i am not really sure.
i only studied a small portion of shaolin do's internal material.

i can only speak for myself. i have not learned any shaolin forms at all. i have no interest.i found an individual who could teach me some things i wanted to learn (tai chi chuan) and self defense.

i have not the means or the interest to go to china and go the the shaolin temple to learn martial arts.

i do think people like shi deyang are fantastic martial artists but they practice something different to what i practice. i am not interested in that material although it is very cool.

[tattooedmonk]

Originally Posted by sean_stonehart

After being on the receiving end of his fists... straight forward. Even drunk.

Is that a good thing?? How drunk??

[tattooedmonk]

I have been known to be a fan of drunken style

[Judge Pen]

Originally Posted by sean_stonehart

After being on the receiving end of his fists... straight forward. Even drunk.

Drunk and with a bad knee. The SoCo killed the pain though....

[Sal Canzonieri]

Originally Posted by Judge Pen

bawang, from my research I believe that there were several teachers at Sin The's school in indonesia that taught their own material. I also believe that Ie was a forms collector himself and that he traveled extensivly picking up what he could. I think that is why there are so many bits a pieces of different systems that have been taught and blended at SD. Which makes it a patchwork quilt and not cut from whole cloth. But the quality of the sticthing is the real issue that I'm concerned with.

Look, it's very simple:

People know that Sin The's / SD routines came from books and videos because all public versions of routines are MARKED with purposefully implanted incorrect postures here and there or missing some postures or added in postures. To ensure that people who learned solely from books can be discovered.
So, the SD routines show these marks. Hence, people who learned from actual teachers know that those particular routines are being done just like the marked routine in the book or video.

A lot of Sd routines are labeled as Shaolin, but they aren't at all and were never taught in any Shaolin temple or afflicated temple or school. For example, all his Hua Quan routines are from Shandong province schools, and clearly show the marks that were implanted in the books published on these routines.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Originally Posted by kwaichang

Sal do you do forms EXACTLY like your teachers same angles etc. If you say yes you are lying that would imply you are perfect , if no then you arent doing it RIGHT. So you may be close . BTW i have seen tai chi at a SD school as good at the rules / vids as you referenced. I dont know who you have seen but I would love to see a vid of yours so I can see Perfect form KC

This so completely shows ignorance that is almost laughable if it wasn't so sad.

Perfect mimicking of angles is not the point.

The point is full transmission of truthful time tested information so that one can practice efficiently and effectively with correct body mechanics and core movements and CMA principles and strategies.
As long as the teacher's are doing things right, and they have taught their students, both will be doing things according to CMA concepts and movements.
No "exact" angles are required, that doesn't even make sense. But I can see how you can say that if you don't understand what CMA even is.

The SOLE reason that SD routines are weird is that karate is the base for the movements taught and then it is applied to CMA routines that they got from books and videos.

It isn't good JMA karate and it isn't good CMA. It's just a mess.
Shodokan karate developed historically in completely different ways and do things for completely different reasons from CMA. BUT, great Okinawan karate, Shorinji Kempo, and other karate styles are southern CMA anyway, I have never seen any great Okinawan or Japanese karate routines or masters do things that violated CMA principles and body mechanics at all.

AMERICAN fake karate, yes, I have seen do stupid things as far as body mechanics go.
Often they compensate when fighting by just plain old fighting harder, using brute strength or sheer determination. They have to expend so much more energy because they don't know why or how to do things correctly. There is no art nor science to what they do.

I'm pretty sure Sin The learned some great Indonesian martial arts (IMA) and has kept this for himself and lets SD do these fake CMA routines with karate movements.