hard power soft power

[Phenix]

hard power soft power what are they?
What differentiate them?
How to generate them?
What kind of end result they produce?



What kind of power is the Shao Lin uses?
What kind of power is TC uses?
What kind of power is Inch power of WCK?
What kind of power is Geng Keng or shock power?

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Hendrik,


Since nobody else is taking a stab at it I will give it a shot!


hard power soft power what are they?
What differentiate them?
How to generate them?
What kind of end result they produce?


For me, Hard power and Soft power are opposite roads. Most of the "Hard" arts I have played with being by hardening and strengthening the muscles, tendons, sinews etc.. The focus on giving the early/young pupils something that is easy to use and makes them a bit more tough thru the conditioning. The Soft arts have a different approach. They are the reverse. They start by letting go of all tension and focusing on the relaxation of the mind/body/methods while feeling or focusing on the inside. For me this is healthier as a soft muscle is a healthy muscle. Less prone to injury.

The hard approach usually has some sort of locked down hard bow alignment and plowing thru footwork. Yet! The South Mantis art I played a bit with did open and close the body (dip gwat gong) with a combo of hard/soft methods but indeed their basics (Tsai Shu) (Stir the pot) was more designed to cultivate Isometric harder tensed up power with some feeling. For me, this was the older Shaolin type way.

The softer approach lengthens the body in a neutral body (not bow) and creates space between the joins and internals. We place a heavy role on developing soft internal power which cultivates the gings thru ways of moving/twisting/spiraling without tension. We coordinate the Mind/Waist/Spine/Chest/etc. (Whole Body Chuk Ging) to deliver Short Shock/Vibrations in all directions. The basics are designed to massage the inside and the power developed in much different.



What kind of power is the Shao Lin uses?
What kind of power is TC uses?
What kind of power is Inch power of WCK?
What kind of power is Geng Keng or shock power?


I will leave this for the next stage of the conversation!


See ya,

[Phenix]

Jim Great!

Come one more folks give this a shot!

From VTM, NangYang WCK, TWC, from Shao Lin from Red Boat From Wudang..... Every body...
From all different Families's view....

Lets give this a technical shot!

[curtis]

Hard vs. soft power
the way I see it, hard power is KINETIC power, (purer muscle power) and soft power refers to using as many muscle groups in conjunction to make the job as easy as possible. By using as many muscles groups in conjunction, allows me to more easily, then it would if I tax one or two muscle groups by themselves. The benefit for using soft power, is that no one muscle group will be overtaxed. Allowing for a softness or graceful approach to completing the job.
A prime example would be watching an Olympic gymnast, they make all techniques look effortless, but in fact if you tried to do what they do you would find it almost impossible. Another good example would be dancing. If you have to try to move, you just do not look graceful. Although if you let the music take you, chances are you'll pass with ,some what more grace. But all good dancers make dancing look effortless.
I also guess the difference would also be in the proper mindset. (But that's outside my expertise.)
I hope these ideas help! By no means are that textbook answers. I hope that help.
Sincerely. C.A.G.

[Gangsterfist]

My sifu explaines it as external and internal power. External you will see a lot in karate. Striking someones punch with your forearm to block it. You will also see it in some forms of kung fu like tiger. Tiger is a viscious external form of kung fu. Internal you will see in hsing i and taijichuan. My sifu has studied taijichuan and WC for many years along with several other martial arts. I train both WC and Taiji. Most internal arts practioners believe that qi (chi) is generated from the dan tien, which is also you center of gravity. Its located a few inches below your belly button, right around where you blatter is. Chi is generated from the dan tien and travels straight up your center, around your head and then straight down the center of your back and down to your groin where it meets the source. There are different merridians the chi will flow to. I have just begun to understand energy myself and still have a lot to learn about it. Breathing also helps a lot. Are you familiar with Taoist breath, budha breath, or yoga breath? Try breathing like that when doing your form work. I can say when I use budhas breath while doing the SLT I can feel my body heat up real quickly from just breathing and doing fok saos during the beging of the form. If you are really interested in learning to become aware to internal (soft) power I suggest taking some Qigung or Taijiquan. My sifu makes us practice qigong and Tai chi. Well, I would say he suggests we participate in class when he does it, but he never really forces us. Pick up a book by Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming. He knows his stuff and his books are good it will explain all this stuff in way better detail.

You can check him out here:

http://www.ymaaschool.com/about/about.php

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I have questions too.

What is good about hard power?
What is bad about soft power?

Does hard=clumsy and soft=refined?

What exactly does tai chi have, that wing chun does not and cannot have?

Why exactly do we want to be soft in martial art?

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


I have questions too.

Cool. JR

What is good about hard power?

Very easy to use. JR

What is bad about soft power?

It takes longer and many think they have it and they dont! JR

Does hard=clumsy and soft=refined?

Not at all. JR

What exactly does tai chi have, that wing chun does not and cannot have?

A less functional or more abused art IMO but at the end of the road they are both supposed to have the same goal. We have both the highly effective south fist and the internal soft components they have. JR

Why exactly do we want to be soft in martial art?

Well, for one, that would make our bodies healthier since a relaxed/aligned body would have better circulation. Also, if we want to rely on hard power we can say that the stronger or harder power will always win. Soft Kung Fu has more feeling and can change/adapt easier. Plus, a big plus, if you are tense all the time then how can you really judge when and where to issue force? JR


See ya,

[Gangsterfist]

Tai chi really helps my wing chun. It disciplines me to use my body as one whole unit. If I strike my hips sync with it. Thats when you start to first notice your art to be more effective. You start to effect the wooden dummy more, foot work becomes easier and you don't have to think about it. That is the first step of learning how to control your bodies energy. I am just starting to learn this with my sifu and it will takes years of more training to develope it fully, if I can even reach that level. I can't say I have ever really released a lot of energy into one strike but I have felt a strike from someone who knows how to do it. It hurts.

WC imo is more of a nuetral art. It can utilize both external and internal techniques. So theoretically it would be wise to train in both, so then you could utilize both in your WC.

[yuanfen]

Gangsterfist- taiji is a great art . No problem in learning it--- same for other arts. But the body motions of wc are somewhat different from taiji. You can enjoy both--- but FWIW I dont see how taji can help your wing chun compared to more wing chun.
But if you have all the time in the world.....

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Jim,

What in your opinion is the shared end goal of tai chi and wing chun?


Gangsterfist,

Do you practice HK- or mainland-style wing chun? What are the significant differences in your opinion?

[Phenix]

Yik Kam's 4 points

Srink, release, vibrate, and swing.

What type of power is that soft or hard?

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Tai chi really helps my wing chun.

A lot of people feel this. I even was going to try this road but found it was not needed.

It disciplines me to use my body as one whole unit. If I strike my hips sync with it. Thats when you start to first notice your art to be more effective. You start to effect the wooden dummy more, foot work becomes easier and you don't have to think about it. That is the first step of learning how to control your bodies energy.

And can you explain to me why you cannot achieve this with your WC? Whats going on in Taiji that you dont have in your WC?

I am just starting to learn this with my sifu and it will takes years of more training to develope it fully, if I can even reach that level. I can't say I have ever really released a lot of energy into one strike but I have felt a strike from someone who knows how to do it. It hurts.

And can you explain to me why you cannot achieve this with your WC? I have felt both top WC and top Taiji people. A Chen grandmaster from Chen village was in town. I asked him to give me a Fa Jing. I was expecting to go flying. The power was ok but not even close to the soft shock force of WC.

WC imo is more of a nuetral art. It can utilize both external and internal techniques. So theoretically it would be wise to train in both, so then you could utilize both in your WC.

I think I am starting to see the problem. Your WC must be harder than it should and you are probally practicing at a speed where you cannot feel the internal doing there thing. Slow down your WC! WC is a soft internal art. Its not possible for you to feel whats going on unless you slow down. How can your mind focus? You are probally thinking more about the hitting versus the Noi Gong. When you practice your Taiji you are doing everything slow and smooth which is causing you to feel the stuff you should be feeling when you practice WC.

Jim,

What in your opinion is the shared end goal of tai chi and wing chun?

Whole Body Issuing and Recieving Ging and the ability to enter into the void. Taiji IMO has become one of the most abused arts. Even more so than WC. When Taiji started out it was nice and simple. 13 postures! From there it went to 30 and then to 70 and then to 140 etc. etc. (not sure about the exact numbers but you get the point) This is abuse! This goes against simple design. There are only so many ways to use your body. All that extra repitition will only cause your brain to **** when the reality time hits.

So many people, and I almost went down that road, think that the soft slow smooth Taiji will turbo charge their WC and make it more sensative and soft. Well, for most it may but whats the point in learning another entire system to do this when its already built into our own? As a matter of fact, and I am not saying this because I am a WC man, I believe WC has a more refined ging than Taiji do to our structural alignemt. So, practicing the elbows in soft way and then learning the elbows out soft way of taiji only causes contradiction in ones development. Your body is programing opposite ways of aligning and that is not cool. If you want to soften up your body just stand Wuji. Thats if you feel you need an outside source to help your WC. Not only this will give your what you are looking for but it will also teach you whole body power.


Just my thoughts.


See ya,

[Phenix]

according to classical Chinese writing,


Hard power erect extended with attacking and defending power.
Soft power srink short with shock (geng) bouncy power.
According to the above, Yik Kam's 4 points is under the soft power catagory.

However, how both powers is in reality, we might have lost the art. decades ago. And today might left with just raw muscle power.

Why?

According to the old writing, make a test, when one is training, if the diagpram (sp) is tensing up. Then it is raw power. ...


months ago, people argue about the original or the oldest of WCK and research..... Based on the classical description above. Sorry to say there is no sign of the type of soft power shown from the so called oldest or most original.

past has always left us with evidents... and a different history will not link up with reality.


Without the Kenturky fried Chicken but selling hamburger, Kenturky fried chicken obviously have to learn hamburger technics. and to get the Kenturky fried chicken recipe, one cannot just make believe mac chicken is the ancestor of kenturky friend chicken. See, Fried Chicken is about cooking not about term or language. cooking is a verb not a noun.


If anyone knows how to produce the types of power above , please explain the procedure here....

No the above two kinds of power. there is no WCK. IMHO

[Gangsterfist]

Well, I guess you would have to just train TC and WC to get what I am saying. Learning another martial Art with WC will definately benefit your WC. It will give you a different aspect of WC, it will also not make you an elitist. A lot of times I have heard people say that a certain style of Martial Arts is superior over another. Don't get me wrong WC is a wonderful Martial Art, and I think WC has more strong points, than weak ones. Self defense, and the ability to fight are the basics of what you receieve from martial arts.

To answer Jim, no my WC is more internal than external. My sifu will show us the external side of WC sometimes. He will also teach us what he has seen in different WC systems. For example if you watch any of Augustine Fong's videos you will see his fighting stance is back weighted just a bit. We train completely 50/50 in all our stances. I may have knowledge of some differences in different styles of WC, however I don't necessarily train them. I also agree with you on that Taiji is an abused art, but so is WC. So are a lot of systems. A lot of people believe that Qigong is a load of crap. I have heard people say Akido is the best MA of all time, etc etc. Apples and oragnes if you ask me.

I guess the first and most obvious benefit I get from Taiji and WC, is that its simply more knowledge I am gaining. Now I don't only spar using WC, I don't always think strictly WC, my grappling has been improved, along with my foot work.

However, I have gotten a bit off subject here. It is better to train internal power over external power imo. Internal will take longer but there is less stress on your body. You can train to iron palm, fist, and finger techniques and make your fists and fingers as hard as stone. Its kind of painful and unnecessary, because you can achieve the same power with short release. Plus tension is your worst enemy, you should learn that from chi sao. However, I also believe its good to know the external side, and to be able to tell the difference.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Well, I guess you would have to just train TC and WC to get what I am saying. Learning another martial Art with WC will definately benefit your WC.


I have gone down that road a few times. Messed around with Chen & Wu a bit. Learned some Chan Su Gong. Even did some Lui Ho Ba Fa (Luk Hop) while I was and am learning the WC way. Its great to have a second set of eyes and to see how others walk the path but I really would have to totally disagree with you. Which is ok. We can agree to disagree.

Young martial artists (and I consider myself young) should do one until they can truly feel and understand that art. Then once a decent level of comprehension is achieved you can start seeing how others walk up the path. If you cant feel it in your body then you cant tell if you need it or not. Doing Taiji w/WC is not needed IMO but as long as we are all happy that is all that matters. Just my thoughts.


Best of luck with your training!


See ya,