differences between 7*mantis and the other mantis styles

[7*mantiskid]

what's the main difference between 7*mantis and the other mantis styles? is 7* the original style created by wong long or was it by one of his students? i'm just wondering. i find 7* to be an awesome fighting style and want to know if the other ones are just as good with the same techniques

[KickingMantis]

Not that I have seen many of the different variations of mantis...but in comparison to those that I have seen... I think Seven Star appears to be more direct and straight to the point. In my obervations, the circular movements tend to be smaller movements, not as flamboyant as some of the other sytems. tend to be more control oriented, controlling the opponent from the moment of encounter to the takedown, break or throw. I think there is less wasted movement.

From my little research and from the information I have obtained from different mantis practitioners... I dont think the original form of mantis that Wong Long discovered and further developed with the other monks was called Seven Star, Mei H, 8 Step or anything else. Probably just Tong Long. I dont know I wasn't there and not many people, if any really know.

We do know that the first known practictioner of Seven Star was Li San Jian or "Fast Hand Li" he taught Wang Yun Sheng sometime between 18454-1926, because this is the lifetime of Wang.

It makes perfectly sense that people learned the mantis that was taught at the temple where Wong Long discovered and developed it and moved on to maybe mix it with there own styles or other styles they had learned in order to perfect their own techniques as they came across different opponents or other styles.

[Frogman]

I have heard of two stories about how Seven Star PM got it’s name. Actually I read it on a 7*PM site I just can’t remember where, perhaps someone else knows of the site I’m referencing. I will first state I do not train in 7* but did read this story and found it interesting. They said that there are many versions of how PM was broke into 12 styles. The version I like but do not know how true it is was the tail that Master Wong once they had learned the PM basics sent his 12 disciples out to find and study their own Praying Mantis bug and use what they learned to create their own style. One story about 7* is that the disciple found a PM w/ 7 spots on it’s back. The other story says that the concept came from the seven star constellation that we know as the little dipper. The big eye opener for me was making the relationship between the 7* stance that I have learned and the concept of what it was. …hard to explain, most of the stances can be related to there English name (i.e. horse stance is like riding a horse) but other then being an upside down 7 I could not understand where the reference came from since in Chinese the character for 7 is totally different. The seven stars that make up the little dipper do look like an upside down 7.
Wow… sorry
Back on track. I have heard that Plumflower was the closest thing to the original but once again I’m not sure. I would like to hear more about how we came to have 12 styles of Praying Mantis. Also do all PM styles follow the 12 word poem???
Would this mean Yes to the folowing question:
Quote
"i find 7* to be an awesome fighting style and want to know if the other ones are just as good with the same techniques"


RibHit
fm

[mantis_seeker]

Hi Frogman,

Also do all PM styles follow the 12 word poem???

All mantis have some form of keywords as most of all CMA do. But there are different sets of keywords among the various styles of mantis. 7* keyword is different than plum blossom is different than taiji mantis yada yada ... and some styles have more than 12.

Even within 7* there are differences between mainland 7* keyword formula and HK 7*. And on top of that there are differences between different lineages in HK.

mantis_seeker

[carly]

and is probably the best-known mantis style.
I too believe that Plum Blossom mantis is the closest thing to the original.

[Joe Mantis]

Check back through past threads. I know there has been some great discussion on this topic as well as stories on how the different names of Mantis styles cam to be.
Tainan Mantis and Mantis 108 and others have posted some stuff.
It may be a bit scattered throughout though.

Carly
In rereading some of Tainan's and Mantis 108 posts, I agree that Plum Flower Mantis may closest to the original.

[KickingMantis]

IM CURIOUS WHY YOU ALL BELIEVE THIS IF NO ONE CURRENTLY KNOWS WHAT THE ORIGINAL IS OR LOOKS LIKE.

WHAT MAKES PLUM FLOWER MORE LIKE THE ORIGINAL AS OPPOSED TO 7*, SHINING BOARD, FLATE PLATE, 8 STEP OR ETC.,

[Joe Mantis]

KICKINGMANTIS

I believe that Tainan Mantis' is researching the that and has used the forms of each style as a point of reference. He can give tons more insight than I can. I do think that by comparing the forms and attempting to find out which forms came from where one can begin to sort through the confusion.

All:

Again, past threads have bits and pieces about the history.

[BeiTangLang]

Again, past threads have bits and pieces about the history. [/B][/QUOTE]
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.

Does this sound cool?
***********

Gee,..I don't know if it sounds cool or not, but ....
What would have happened if no one fought for the rights you currently enjoy?

[mantis_seeker]

Hi,

I do think that by comparing the forms and attempting to find out which forms came from where one can begin to sort through the confusion.

I don't think that will help. A lot of crossing happened between 7* and plum blossom. It was not uncommon for masters of both styles to be friends and in the best of traditions things got traded back and forth.

If you look at the lineages the only point where the two lineages intersect is with Wong Long. So it could be possible the two developed independently for a little while.

As for Wong Long's mantis nobody does know what it looks like. Plum blossom mantis does not claim to be closest to Wong Long's mantis and many sifus agree that form of mantis has probably been lost.

7* star and plum blossom are more similiar than different. As long as it is good mantis who cares.

mantis_seeker

[Tainan Mantis]

In Liang Hsuehsiang's old manuscripts of Taiji (later meihua) Mantis from the 1800's he lists;
beng bu
luan jie
8 elbows... as forms from Wang Lang.

There is no comparitive manuscript that has been mentioned for 7*.

Li Sanjian, where most people start the 7* lineage, may have had forms like duo gang and ro ling.

Maybe Wang Rongsheng added White Ape Steals the Peach( Mantis Steals... for HK 7*)
So that is a good indication of what old 7* PM was like.

Supposedly Li Sanjian didn't teach 8 Elbows, but did teach beng Bu and luan jie.
Where did he learn them from?
That is not clear and remains a mystery.
From Hseng HSiao?
Manuscripts from Hseng Hsiao contain forms that no one knows these days. If they do know them, they are not saying.
His manuscripts don't contain any forms that modern PM schools teach.

Then there is 6 Harmony, which Ilya Profatilov has done the most research on.
It is also PM, but their forms are different again.

So it signifies that the 3 styles of Taiji-Mei Hua, 7* and 6 Harmony may have a common root, but have all changed enough so that there is a large body of forms that are uncommon.

Later styles can be traced to these roots.

[MightyB]

As long as it is good mantis who cares.

True enough, but this topic still is interesting.

Guys, keep up with posting any historical findings or snippets as you come across them. The sad fact is that the truth will probably never be known. Doesn't mean that you can't have fun with the search though.

[MightyB]

Li Sanjian, where most people start the 7* lineage, may have had forms like duo gang and ro ling.

I'm not so sure of this. My Sifu lists Din Da (spelling phonetically-- I think it means short fist-- this style like many of the base styles of PM is extinct now) as one of the 17 base styles of mantis-- that's probably where duo gang came from.

I do agree that there is little pure mantis. Very few forms are listed as just mantis forms, and HK 7* now has a lot of Chin Wu forms as well.

Anyway, what are some of the lost forms you keep alluding to? You can't just tease us like that.

[Ming Fai]

7* star and plum blossom are more similiar than different

Actually, from what I've heard, aren't they really one and the same style? Seven Star Praying Mantis supplemented with the forms Meihua Lu, Meihua Shou and Meihua Quan = Meihua Tanglang. While Meihua Tanglang without the three forms was called Seven Star Mantis...? So originally in Shandong, people didn't really make a difference between Seven Star and Meihua, they were considered to be one style.

But my knowledge on Mantis is really limited, so correct me if I'm wrong...

[Joe Mantis]

BeiTangLang,

To answer you question, I probably wouldn't be enjoying these rights right now. Lots of thanks to those who serve and have served.
However, I wasn't referring to fighting for Rights rather fighting for peace.

All:

Is mei hua lu a popular form in PLum Flowern PM?