Wai Jia? Nei Jia?

[jack]

Why is arts like wing chun consider as wai jia (external art, 外家) & arts like tai ji consider as nei jia (inner art, 内家)?

Xing yi (形意) & ba gua (八卦) are also consider as nei jia arts but xing yi looks 'hard' too.

As for ba gua, it's also being divided into hard & soft types of ba gua. Cheng style (程式) ba gua is consider as soft ba gua & Yin style (尹式) ba gua is consider as hard ba gua.

But I have never heard people calling hard ba gua as wai jia before.

The line that separate wai jia & nei jia is blurred. Is there a need to categorise different arts into wai jia & nei jia?

[AmanuJRY]

Originally Posted by jack

Is there a need to categorise different arts into wai jia & nei jia?

IMHO, not really.

There are 'internal' and 'external' aspects to all arts, or 'internal' and 'external' elements can be applied to any art, therefore, catagorizing the different arts as internal or external, is hype.

[sihing]

Originally Posted by jack

Why is arts like wing chun consider as wai jia (external art, 外家) & arts like tai ji consider as nei jia (inner art, 内家)?

Xing yi (形意) & ba gua (八卦) are also consider as nei jia arts but xing yi looks 'hard' too.

As for ba gua, it's also being divided into hard & soft types of ba gua. Cheng style (程式) ba gua is consider as soft ba gua & Yin style (尹式) ba gua is consider as hard ba gua.

But I have never heard people calling hard ba gua as wai jia before.

The line that separate wai jia & nei jia is blurred. Is there a need to categorise different arts into wai jia & nei jia?

More marketing tactics to make a group feel special or superior to others.. I've heard remarks saying that the instructors or founders of a style/system would create more flowery forms to show the public to possibly intice them to join their organization or school, so even then there were trying to appeal to the eye rather than show their true colors.

James

P.S. What's external or internal supposed to mean anyways?? I do know of their meanings but really, when the fight lasts all but a few seconds do you think that it would really matter in the end. One rely's on more internal chi development and one is based on more muscle strength? Highly skilled Martial Artists from all styles use both IMO (and by chi I mean a finely tuned ability to control one's internal muscles and structure, not some esoteric secret source of power from within)

[Buddha_Fist]

Originally Posted by jack

Why is arts like wing chun consider as wai jia (external art, 外家) & arts like tai ji consider as nei jia (inner art, 内家)?

Xing yi (形意) & ba gua (八卦) are also consider as nei jia arts but xing yi looks 'hard' too.

As for ba gua, it's also being divided into hard & soft types of ba gua. Cheng style (程式) ba gua is consider as soft ba gua & Yin style (尹式) ba gua is consider as hard ba gua.

But I have never heard people calling hard ba gua as wai jia before.

The line that separate wai jia & nei jia is blurred. Is there a need to categorise different arts into wai jia & nei jia?

I second James on this one. Will my fist in your grill feel softer or harder depending on the amount of day-light? Hmmm....

The world might never know!

[anerlich]

The definition of "internal" used by a Taiji/Xingyi/Bagua teacher I trained with for about 5 years had only an incidental relationship to "soft".

Rather, according to him, the "internal" arts are so categorised because they are based on Taoist principles of TCM (taiji - Yin/Yang, bagua - eight trigrams, xingyi - five elements), whereas other TCMA are based on animal movements, human biomechanics, and the like.

There are a number of problems with this definition, but I'm the messenger, don't take issue about it with me, you'll be wasting your time and mine.

Taiji is not soft. It is hard AND soft.

Xingyi can be as hard as a fist of diamond. But it's still internal by the above definition, whereas karate, WC, jiu jitsu, etc. are not. Aikido is an example of a "soft" art which is not internal - and so, arguably, is jiu jitsu.

Is there a need to categorise different arts into wai jia & nei jia?

Only if *you* think there is.

It could be argued, and is, that while the internal arts are based on "higher" principles. that doesn't necessarily mean they are practical in a fight. Few if any real combat situations have any airs of intellect or nobility about them.

[mantis108]

Originally Posted by anerlich

The definition of "internal" used by a Taiji/Xingyi/Bagua teacher I trained with for about 5 years had only an incidental relationship to "soft".

Rather, according to him, the "internal" arts are so categorised because they are based on Taoist principles of TCM (taiji - Yin/Yang, bagua - eight trigrams, xingyi - five elements), whereas other TCMA are based on animal movements, human biomechanics, and the like.

There are a number of problems with this definition, but I'm the messenger, don't take issue about it with me, you'll be wasting your time and mine.

Taiji is not soft. It is hard AND soft.

Xingyi can be as hard as a fist of diamond. But it's still internal by the above definition, whereas karate, WC, jiu jitsu, etc. are not. Aikido is an example of a "soft" art which is not internal - and so, arguably, is jiu jitsu.



Only if *you* think there is.

It could be argued, and is, that while the internal arts are based on "higher" principles. that doesn't necessarily mean they are practical in a fight. Few if any real combat situations have any airs of intellect or nobility about them.

I generally agreed with you on this. I recently read a book called "A Brief History of Myth" by Karen Armstrong who is one of my favorite writers. If you substitute the word myth with Kung Fu or Kung Fu form you will see a remarkable parallel between the two. Personally, a good myth (as well as Kung Fu) is not only for us to deal issues concerning morality and humanity but more importantly to address our perspective of mortality, after life, etc. Now of course, utilitarian would have different idea about Kung Fu where everything else except the training protocol for fighting strategy, tactics and techniques are relevant. I am not here to debate that other than pointing to the fact that it is at least the reason the worldview of Yijing (classic of change), which include the very holistic percept-concept of Qi, is often the front and center in traditional Kung Fu.

On a different note, I believe that Xingyi is likely branched off from ancient style of Fanziquan. The five phase fist (Wu Xing Chuan) is almost identical to Fanzi's Wu Hua Pao (Five Blossoms Pounding) which is said to contain most if not all of the technique needed to defeat any and all styles (as I am told). Curiously enough both styles acknowledge General Yue Fei as their progenitor.

Warm regards

Mantis108

PS I would think Aikido and BJJ as internal as Boxing, MMA, Kung Fu, etc... To say one style is internal and the other is not is an arguement based on focusing on the finger pointing to the moon. It is totally missing the heavenly glory that which an awaken human being is capable of beholding.

[Liddel]

I always thought that these were really simplistic terms in nature, to just give a brief idea or overview of the characteristics of an art to an outsider.

It is easier to explain what the crux of an art is in a few words rather than sit down and have someone discuss the entire history to you, which with the way i bable on could take ages....

We all know that this is not really a good way do describe individual arts but i think its supposed to be from a begginers POV.

FWIW i was told that the external arts are mainly the northern styles because north china has many mountains and is for the most part very cold so that environment fostered larger actions like jumping and Long Fist tech's to get the blood pumping and warm you up as well as being for fighting....

Conversly the south is warmer and flatter so the environment influenced shorter less 'wild' actions etc....

Although i do really like the example put foward by Anerlich - both KINDA make sence.

Weather you agree or not (and this is not meant to explain every art -because there as so many and some fall in the GREY area) it is an interesting though about how the environment influenced Kung Fu.

[anerlich]

To say one style is internal and the other is not is an arguement based on focusing on the finger pointing to the moon. It is totally missing the heavenly glory that which an awaken human being is capable of beholding.

Indeed ... the insistence on categorisation and pigeonholing in effect destroys the essence and vitality.

Enough philosophy, lets go back to arguing about lineage and the best type of latte

[anerlich]

FWIW i was told that the external arts are mainly the northern styles because north china has many mountains and is for the most part very cold so that environment fostered larger actions like jumping and Long Fist tech's to get the blood pumping and warm you up as well as being for fighting....

Conversly the south is warmer and flatter so the environment influenced shorter less 'wild' actions etc....

Sounds valid ... I was told the Northern styles had the big moves because they had lots of open space, whereas the Southern styles developed in crowded areas with less room to move, and from around ports where people spent lots of time on sampans and other boats that made stable stances a must and high kicking a foolhardy enterprise.

I couldn't see TKD getting you a long way on the red boats

[jack]

Quote:
Rather, according to him, the "internal" arts are so categorised because they are based on Taoist principles of TCM (taiji - Yin/Yang, bagua - eight trigrams, xingyi - five elements), whereas other TCMA are based on animal movements, human biomechanics, and the like.

Does that mean any arts that had Taoist principles in it will be considered as internal arts too?
Taiji, xingyi & bagua like other tcma do had animal movements, human biomechanics too.

Quote:
On a different note, I believe that Xingyi is likely branched off from ancient style of Fanziquan. The five phase fist (Wu Xing Chuan) is almost identical to Fanzi's Wu Hua Pao (Five Blossoms Pounding) which is said to contain most if not all of the technique needed to defeat any and all styles (as I am told). Curiously enough both styles acknowledge General Yue Fei as their progenitor.

Xingyi was actually branched off from XinYiLiuHeQuan(心意六合拳) created by Ji Long Ke in the later years of ming dynasty(明末山西浦州人姬際可(字龍峰或隆風)). He was good in spear fighting but later decided to combined spear fighting with unarmed combat fighting into one for the use during peace time.

Today, his descendants still lived in mainland china, shanxi province, yong ji county, zhang ying town, zun village (山西省永濟縣張營鄉尊村).

Making patriotic general Yue Fei of the song dynasty as the founder of xingyi is just a hearsay & this was also a good form of advertisement to promoted xingyi & xinyiliuhe too.

Quote:
FWIW i was told that the external arts are mainly the northern styles because north china has many mountains and is for the most part very cold so that environment fostered larger actions like jumping and Long Fist tech's to get the blood pumping and warm you up as well as being for fighting....

Conversly the south is warmer and flatter so the environment influenced shorter less 'wild' actions etc....

Quote:
Sounds valid ... I was told the Northern styles had the big moves because they had lots of open space, whereas the Southern styles developed in crowded areas with less room to move, and from around ports where people spent lots of time on sampans and other boats that made stable stances a must and high kicking a foolhardy enterprise.

Not entirely true.
Taiji, xingyi & bagua all came from china’s northern region. Southern styles do have high kicking & flying kicks. Even taiji does have flying kicks too. But they were advice not to use it frequently cos it might cost you your balancing.

If your opponent is good at interceding kicks & push you down on the ground. You’re in trouble. That’s why a lot of tcma couldn’t handle arts like bjj in the beginning. Cos many tcma fight by standing on their feet & try to keep their balances, except for arts like shuai jiao (摔跤), shaolin dog fists (少林狗拳) & other di tang fists (地趟拳).

[ntc]

In China, Internal Styles ("Nei Jia") is termed so because it is primarily uses "Nei Gong" (internal energy), which means it uses more soft power versus External Styles ("Wei Jia"), which uses more hard, physical power ("Wei Gong"). Nei Jia styles tend to do soft blocks, redirection, and absorption, rather than the hard physical blocks from the Wei Jia styles. Also, Nei Jia styles are softer (like Tai Chi, Hsing Yi, Pagua) when compared to the Wei Jia styles like Hung Gar, Lo Han Quan, etc. Generally speaking, Nei Jia styles also deliver power with muscles relaxed, while Wei Jia deliver power with tensed muscles.

We also try to understand the characteristics of the style, Nei Jia vs Wei Jia, so that we will know which techniques would be more effective against it. A lot is based on Yin and Yang... Yin to subdue Yang, and Yang to subdue Yin. We have a Chinese saying.... "Yee Yau Tsai Gong" --> "Use soft to subdue hard". This yin/yang theory is a very key combat strategy in most Chinese martial arts.

[sihing]

Originally Posted by ntc

In China, we Internal Styles ("Nei Jia") is termed so because it is primarily uses "Nei Gong" (internal energy), which means it uses more soft power versus External Styles ("Wei Jia"), which uses more hard, physical power ("Wei Gong"). Nei Jia styles tend to do soft blocks, redirection, and absorption, rather than the hard physical blocks from the Wei Jia styles. Also, Nei Jia styles are softer (like Tai Chi, Hsing Yi, Pagua) when compared to the Wei Jia styles like Hung Gar, Lo Han Quan, etc. Generally speaking, Nei Jia styles also deliver power with muscles relaxed, while Wei Jia deliver power with tensed muscles.

We also try to understand the characteristics of the style, Nei Jia vs Wei Jia, so that we will know which techniques would be more effective against it. A lot is based on Yin and Yang... Yin to subdue Yang, and Yang to subdue Yin. We have a Chinese saying.... "Yee Yau Tsai Gong" --> "Use soft to subdue hard". This yin/yang theory is a very key combat strategy in most Chinese martial arts.

Define "Internal Energy & Soft Power". What is it and how is it used. I'm curious to know how you define it and it's useage, as I do have my own thoughts on the subject..Is it possible to use power in a soft or hard Manner? I realize the difference between force vs force as compared to redirecting energy coming towards you, but how does that negate the fact that everyone needs to use their muscles to move any part of their body.

James

[ntc]

James,

I understand your question. It is hard to explain hard power versus soft power..... much easier to show in person, but I will try. I think the best way to describe "soft power" is that first of all, the energy is initiated from some part of the body, usually the hips, but this depends on the style. This energy is then transferred downwards to the ground, rebound back up, and then relayed from one joint to another in orderly sequence (ground - foot - knee - shoulder - elbow - and finally to the fist delivering the blow). This energy is relayed along the path with all the muscles relaxed, but the joints all work in almost simulatneous torque, hence the resulting energy sent into the opponent is magnified as it is passed from one joint to another. Here, it is important for the muscles to be relaxed in order for the energy transfer and build-up to be smooth and increasingly stronger... tense muscles along this path will hinder the progression. This is why you see some of the sudden, explosive punches in Chen style, for example, where, via silk reeling, the energy is torqued all the way to the fist... to the outsider, it looks like a sudden, explosive punch from a very soft, relaxed position... despite the explosiveness of the punch, the muscles will still look relaxed.

Probably the best way to describe what being hit by soft power is like is to akin it to a bow and arrow.... when the arrow is released, it is straight, true, direct, and focused... there is nothing holding it back from its flight path... no muscles, etc. This is what happens when a "soft" punch is thrown.. no muscles or tension holding it back. A "hard" punch is usually thrown with most of the muscles in the fist, forearm, upperarm, and even the shoulders all tensed up. In the "soft" punch, the fist is usually relaxed, but controlled, and is only momentarily tensed up at the point of contact, and then relaxed again. The person receiving the blow from a "soft punch" will feel a very intense, sharp, and focused hit that causes more damage internally versus a more superficial blow which causes bruising in the surface. The person receiving a "hard" punch will generally feel pain over a larger surface area at the point of contact, but the pain tends to be more at the surface levels under the skin versus deeper in the body.

I am not sure if what I said makes sense or not.... it is difficult to explain in words how it feels. Hopefully, I was successful in at least conveying what it might feel like, or what a "soft" punch is considered.

[mantis108]

Originally Posted by jack

Quote:
Rather, according to him, the "internal" arts are so categorised because they are based on Taoist principles of TCM (taiji - Yin/Yang, bagua - eight trigrams, xingyi - five elements), whereas other TCMA are based on animal movements, human biomechanics, and the like.

Yin-yang, Bagua, Wuxing, etc... as Chinese archtypical worldview is not solely developed or owned by Daoists. In fact, it is the Shamans who first developed this model. Then it when through the pre-historic King (ie Fu Hsi) and dynastic scholars (ie Lao Zi, Confucius, Chen Tuan, Zhu Zi etc). Confucius is credited as the main editor of the Zhou Yi otherwise known as Yijing (classic of change). Since his time 2 prominent groups of scholars - Confucians (philosophical) and Daoists (mystical) further develop Yijing into "applicable scientific model". This model is found in Chinese medicine, pugilism, divination (not equivalent of fortune telling), etc... Most of the scholars working on the Yijing today are philosophical because of the influence of Song dynasty Confucian scholar Zhu Zi's curriculum being adopted in the Ming dynasty government academy. The Daoist mystical approach is mainly found in the medical and martial arts communities.

Does that mean any arts that had Taoist principles in it will be considered as internal arts too? Taiji, xingyi & bagua like other tcma do had animal movements, human biomechanics too.

Daoism is more of a mystical approach. Arts like Taiji, Bagua, and Xingyi (the big three) are more directly dealing with the application of the Chinese archtypical worldview (CAW). This is not to say that animal styles don't have that worldview. In fact Shandong Tanglangqaun (Northern Mantis), Fujian Baihe (Fujian White Crane), Dongjiang Longxing (East River Dragon Style), they are all about applying the said worldview. Wing Chun and Hung Gar IMHO are both relatives of the Fujian Baihe family; thus, it's just as internal as the big three at least theoretically. So... If a martial arts (ie boxing) that doesn't use the archtypical worldview to formulate it's teaching, I don't think we can "name" it internal per se. Having said that it doesn't mean that the physical movememts of said art theoretically can not be explained with the CAW.

Quote:
On a different note, I believe that Xingyi is likely branched off from ancient style of Fanziquan. The five phase fist (Wu Xing Chuan) is almost identical to Fanzi's Wu Hua Pao (Five Blossoms Pounding) which is said to contain most if not all of the technique needed to defeat any and all styles (as I am told). Curiously enough both styles acknowledge General Yue Fei as their progenitor.

Xingyi was actually branched off from XinYiLiuHeQuan(心意六合拳) created by Ji Long Ke in the later years of ming dynasty(明末山西浦州人姬際可(字龍峰或隆風)). He was good in spear fighting but later decided to combined spear fighting with unarmed combat fighting into one for the use during peace time.

Today, his descendants still lived in mainland china, shanxi province, yong ji county, zhang ying town, zun village (山西省永濟縣張營鄉尊村).

Thank you for the information. As far as my limited understanding of Xinyi Liuhe goes, it is primarily a Muslim art. The influence of Muslim community to the Chinese history and culture is often down played. XYLH is a good example of that IMHO. BTW, Believe it or not Islamic ideas were blended with the grass root religious believes of Buddism and Daoism to form the belief system of cult militias. Some people believe that Cha Quan, Tan Tui, XYLH, etc are all Muslim. Tongbi like other "foreign arts" could be of Muslim origin that migrated from west to Shanxi, Henan province (southward) and then upto Hebei (northward), Shandong (northeastward). This would IMHO explain the "long fist" dynamics as oppose to the "short strike" dynamics that possible originated from the Yang Tze river region (Jiangnan). Short strikes styles such as Fanzi, Cho Jiao, etc.. migrated northward to Henan and then Hebei, Shandong, etc but more importantly it further move deep south to Fujian and Guangdong regions. This 2 main migrating patterns are what I believe to be worth looking into as TCMA developement in general.

In reality, Chinese "internalized" or rather naturalized "foreign arts" with its archtypical worldview is what I am getting at.

Making patriotic general Yue Fei of the song dynasty as the founder of xingyi is just a hearsay & this was also a good form of advertisement to promoted xingyi & xinyiliuhe too.

I would agree on that.

Quote:
FWIW i was told that the external arts are mainly the northern styles because north china has many mountains and is for the most part very cold so that environment fostered larger actions like jumping and Long Fist tech's to get the blood pumping and warm you up as well as being for fighting....

Conversly the south is warmer and flatter so the environment influenced shorter less 'wild' actions etc....

I am sorry. I really can't agreed to this rather superficial assumption. But I don't have the time to present an arguement at this point.

Quote:
Sounds valid ... I was told the Northern styles had the big moves because they had lots of open space, whereas the Southern styles developed in crowded areas with less room to move, and from around ports where people spent lots of time on sampans and other boats that made stable stances a must and high kicking a foolhardy enterprise.

Again this is related to the migrating patterns of the arts. I would like to come back to this later if you don't mind.

Not entirely true.
Taiji, xingyi & bagua all came from china’s northern region. Southern styles do have high kicking & flying kicks. Even taiji does have flying kicks too. But they were advice not to use it frequently cos it might cost you your balancing.

Exactly.

If your opponent is good at interceding kicks & push you down on the ground. You’re in trouble. That’s why a lot of tcma couldn’t handle arts like bjj in the beginning. Cos many tcma fight by standing on their feet & try to keep their balances, except for arts like shuai jiao (摔跤), shaolin dog fists (少林狗拳) & other di tang fists (地趟拳).

No comment at this point.

Regards

Mantis108

[anerlich]

Not entirely true.
Taiji, xingyi & bagua all came from china’s northern region. Southern styles do have high kicking & flying kicks. Even taiji does have flying kicks too. But they were advice not to use it frequently cos it might cost you your balancing.

I related what I'd heard, I didn't say I necessarily agreed with it. As others have said, people travelled extensively and there was quite a bit of cross-fertilisation. Also, as you say, the differences are more like trends or tendencies rather than clear cul distinctions, with plenty of exceptions.

There are a number of definitions of "internal". Mine (from a high level practitioner of taiji and xingyi/bagua and Taiwan-trained doctor of acupuncture and TCM) is one, ntc's is another.

As for the various quality distinctions of movement, I've seen them applied equally well by skilled surfers and skateboarders equally as much as MA's. Nothing mystical here, unless you really have to make it so.