Nei Jia vs Wai Jia

[SPJ]

One theory is that Qing royalties used it to divide martial arts circles at the time.

The other theory is that the students of Tai Ji, Ba Gua and Xing Yi had a meeting and decided to study from one another. They grouped themself as Nei Jia.

The true story seemed to be that Shaolin and Wu Dang had Nei Jia cultivation and MA long before Tai Ji, Ba Gua or Xing Yi.

For most schools of CMA, Nei Wai Jiang Xio or Nei and Wai cultivations are both needed.

And only CMA has theory of both Nei and Wai?

What is your opinion about this matter?

Does your school of MA have both Nei and Wai training methods and theories?

How are they different?

Or only the speed and power stressed and nothing else?

[count]

Proper training methods, like stance/step training, have aspects of all nei/wei/qi gong's when done correctly. Training qi gong alone is not beneficial to martial arts. But as my teachers says, too much external training can make you sick by stealing from your internal health. And too much internal training robs from your external health. So over all balance is essential to a healthy training program.

[Christopher M]

Originally Posted by SPJ

The other theory is that the students of Tai Ji, Ba Gua and Xing Yi had a meeting and decided to study from one another. They grouped themself as Nei Jia.

The true story seemed to be that Shaolin and Wu Dang had Nei Jia cultivation and MA long before Tai Ji, Ba Gua or Xing Yi.

These aren't conflicting stories: when the "Tai Ji, Ba Gua and Xing Yi students" declared themselves "Nei Jia," they weren't claiming that only they had "Nei Jia cultivation" -- they were merely identifying themselves as a distinct martial culture and chose that as their name. It appears they were not aware of the confusion this would cause and had tried to change the name once such confusion arose, but the original name was already popular.

For most schools of CMA, Nei Wai Jiang Xio or Nei and Wai cultivations are both needed.

Right. But this does not mean that "most schools of CMA" possess the qualities of the "Nei Jia" when this word is used to refer to the distinct martial culture founded by the "Tai Ji, Ba Gua and Xing Yi students." In other words, "Nei Jia" as that culture and "Nei Jia cultivations" refer to different things.

[gfx]

If we look back to the end of Ming and starting of Qing dynasty, there was no classification of "neijia" and "waijia" at the time. There was a record of something called "nei jia quan", however, that was a single style as supposed to a broad catagorization. Description of the style can be found in "WangZhengNan tomb record", and stories of ZhangSongXi in "Ning Buo government records". Both WangZhengNan and ZhangSongXi are NeiJiaQuan masters, and Wang's skills is claimed to have descended from Zhang. They both claim that the root of their art is from ZhangSanFeng, and from the principal of taiji. It's important to know here that Taiji itself is just a theory, and has little to do with Taijiquan itself. The name of the style itself is simply "Nei Jia Quan", and our earliest record of it is around the same period that Chen Wang Ting came up with Chen Taiji. They are independent however, because Chen Wang Ting founded Chen Taiji in isolation and in his old age.

There is in fact a "Song Xi Nei jia" style in NanChong, SiChuan province in China right now., which claims to be the style ZhangSongXi practiced in the end of Ming dynasty. It was only recently discovered in 1980s, and many of its movements interestingly corresponds with QiJiGuang's 32 fist methods. Even the names of some of the techniques are the same.

Looking at this style however, it has more in common with Long fist than with Taiji. It's a style that is uses throws heavily, and excels at close range standup grappling. The training method also focuses heavily in external conditioning as well as body coordination and power generation not unlike taiji, although it's much more dynamic.

My point is that the classification of "Neijia" and "waijia" for styles is basically meaningless. Any respectable Chinese style contains similar power generation, body coordination and conditioning methods. "External" styles such baji, pigua/tongbei, or long fist have very "internal" power generation methods. And "internal" styles like bagua, chen taiji have very rigorous and difficult external conditioning methods.

The label "internal" and "external" is simple the Chinese way of saying the body coordination methods and power training methods. For the body to generate power, muscles need to contract/expand. External is to thicken the muscles, and internal is to 1. relax muscles in their normal state, so contraction can be maximized when needed. 2. coordinate the muscles in the body in a structural way so that output of power can be maximized. This includes breathing and alignment...etc. That's it, there's nothing more than that.

This kind of conditioning is common to ALL martial arts in the world, and also in sports. So there is nothing mystical about it. We simply have a better understanding and better theory for them.

So the answer to the question? All (respectable) martial art schools and sports have "neijia" and "waijia" methods.

[Christopher M]

Originally Posted by gfx

My point is that the classification of "Neijia" and "waijia" for styles is basically meaningless.

Your story doesn't relate to that point -- since it concerns the style called "neijiaquan" rather than the classification "neijia."

As I noted, every martial art may have wei cultivation and nei cultivation, but that doesn't mean a weijia has the qualities of a neijia nor vice-versa: "neijia" refers simply to a distinct culture of martial arts, not one which claims to have all the nei cultivation methods.

I'm not sure why this point is so difficult to grasp in the case of the neijia. Surely we recognize, for example, that judo has different qualities than karate. Why is it so problematic, then, to imagine the same principle in the chinese martial arts?

[gfx]

Yeah, it dosen't seem to have much relevance does it. I realized that too, but by then I had typed too much to stop.

[count]

Originally Posted by Christopher M

Your story doesn't relate to that point -- since it concerns the style called "neijiaquan" rather than the classification "neijia."

As I noted, every martial art may have wei cultivation and nei cultivation, but that doesn't mean a weijia has the qualities of a neijia nor vice-versa: "neijia" refers simply to a distinct culture of martial arts, not one which claims to have all the nei cultivation methods.

I'm not sure why this point is so difficult to grasp in the case of the neijia. Surely we recognize, for example, that judo has different qualities than karate. Why is it so problematic, then, to imagine the same principle in the chinese martial arts?

I wasn't clear on the fact that Chinese was your native language. I also wasn't aware that these terms refered to a culture as opposed to a method. If that is the case and as you are arguing, judo and karate from the Japanese culture are so different, than how are the qualities of tai chi and hsing-i much the same?

[Christopher M]

Originally Posted by count

I wasn't clear on the fact that Chinese was your native language.

It's only reasonable to comment on chinese martial arts if chinese is your native language? That's an interest position, but one we'll have to agree to disagree on.

[Christopher M]

Originally Posted by gfx

Yeah, it dosen't seem to have much relevance does it. I realized that too, but by then I had typed too much to stop.

Well, it's an interesting story, and it does explain some of the confusion surround the Nei Jia family of chinese martial arts -- such as the recurring theme that they are associated in some way with ZhangSanFeng.

[Fu-Pow]

If anyone wants to know the difference then I suggest that they spend 20 min/day doing some kind of "standing post" exercise.

Relax every muscle in your body that you can. What you are left with...whatever it is that is holding you up....that is "internal."

[Vash]

Originally Posted by Fu-Pow

Relax every muscle in your body that you can. What you are left with...whatever it is that is holding you up....that is "internal."

Either going to be muscular tension or some joints locked in such a manner as all force is being imposed on the cartilage, ligaments, and surfaces of joint articulation. Not a good thing, that one.

[count]

Originally Posted by Christopher M

It's only reasonable to comment on chinese martial arts if chinese is your native language? That's an interest position, but one we'll have to agree to disagree on.

Not at all, but when arguing with Chinese people about their own culture and language, it might be best to have the actual experience to draw from. Otherwise it might be informative to discuss instead.

About the Chinese term "jia" in neijia

If that is the case and as you are arguing, judo and karate from the Japanese culture are so different, than how are the qualities of tai chi and hsing-i much the same?

[Fu-Pow]

Originally Posted by Vash

Either going to be muscular tension or some joints locked in such a manner as all force is being imposed on the cartilage, ligaments, and surfaces of joint articulation. Not a good thing, that one.

One thing I can tell you is the joints are definitely not locked because none of them are held straight, they're all bent.

Secondly, muscular tension is at a minimum especially in the large muscle groups of the legs.

Thirdly, I'm talking about subjective experience, not propositional truth (ie science.) Although, there is obviously a correlation between how you feel and what's happening objectively in the body.

I'm saying "try it" come back and tell me if you " feel " a difference. I can definitely feel a difference between how I normally move and how I move after practicing standing post. And I believe that difference is the difference between "internal" and "external."

The only way you'll know if I'm telling the truth is if you try it (ie participate.)

[Christopher M]

Originally Posted by count

Not at all, but when arguing with Chinese people about their own culture and language, it might be best to have the actual experience to draw from.

I have all the "actual experience" required to make the comments I made, which is how I was able to make them. Their truth or falseness is completely independant of both my ethnicity and that of the other people in this thread. If you disagree with me, please address my comments rather than my race.

P.S. It appears that in your haste you failed to notice that I never disputed anyone's remarks in the first place. My response to SPJ claimed only that the Nei Jia are a martial subculture and that Nei Jia cultivations are found both among them and the Wei Jia -- which were points he had already made. My response to GFX claimed only that Nei Jia Quan is a distinct art from the Nei Jia -- which is a point he had already made. I added nothing new.

[Vash]

Originally Posted by Fu-Pow

One thing I can tell you is the joints are definitely not locked because none of them are held straight, they're all bent.

Secondly, muscular tension is at a minimum especially in the large muscle groups of the legs.

Thirdly, I'm talking about subjective experience, not propositional truth (ie science.) Although, there is obviously a correlation between how you feel and what's happening objectively in the body.

I'm saying "try it" come back and tell me if you " feel " a difference. I can definitely feel a difference between how I normally move and how I move after practicing standing post. And I believe that difference is the difference between "internal" and "external."

The only way you'll know if I'm telling the truth is if you try it (ie participate.)

Actually, I have. From Tai Chi and Hsing I. Regarding Hsing I, I practice the Xing Yi Nei Gong on my non-weightlifting weeks, and used it extensively in my recovery.

I like the "pole standing," as it does facilitate the ready state of muscular tension, as opposed to the nervous state of muscular tension.

However, I would be rather hesitant to make it a cornerstone of my training when bagwork and sparring facilitate a much more dynamic technical growth.