Hong Quan anyone?

[Shaolin Master]

Sal,

Could you clarify your question? Somehow in amongst all that I did not catch it.
Yes, there are many Hongquan some related some not, but pretty straightforward.

e.g. to some I could see:

Yang Jwingming's things are derived from the Nanjing Guoshu Assoc. (combined from Hebei and Shandong Masters' arts). which then was taken to Taiwan.

The Emei qixing set is from Zhaomen (of the 8 men of Emei)....it was derived from Zhili (Hebei) and Shanxi Martial arts so of course related to Shanxi and Hebei arts.

Shanxi Hongquan is itself a combination of arts.........

etc....

Regards
Wu Chanlong

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal,

Could you clarify your question? Somehow in amongst all that I did not catch it.
Yes, there are many Hongquan some related some not, but pretty straightforward.

e.g. to some I could see:

Yang Jwingming's things are derived from the Nanjing Guoshu Assoc. (combined from Hebei and Shandong Masters' arts). which then was taken to Taiwan.

The Emei qixing set is from Zhaomen (of the 8 men of Emei)....it was derived from Zhili (Hebei) and Shanxi Martial arts so of course related to Shanxi and Hebei arts.

Shanxi Hongquan is itself a combination of arts.........

etc....

Regards
Wu Chanlong

Thanks, well I have these questions:

Just what the heck is Shanxi Hong Quan? Where did they get all these sets from? I have had a hard time investigating this right now.
Is is Shaolin derived? How old is it?
I know that some of their sets came from Emei, but what about the others?

What can you tell me about Ming TZ Hong Quan?
Is it in any way related or derived from Song TZ Hong Quan at all?
I think not, I think it is more like Hong Gar's type of Hong Quan.
Is it completely different and if so what styles is it derived from?

Also, the style in Shandong known as Plumflower, it is a series of sets, the ones that Yang Jing Ming teaches and others. They do two Tai Tzu Quan sets (yi and er lu). Where do these sets come from?
People are telling me that these two TZ sets are unrelated to Song TZ, that they are an amalgamation of Shandong martial arts.
thanks

[DRleungjan]

Well, the answer is directly and indirectly.

A lot of your question I have answered here at my site:

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle14.htm

But, also Ming Tai Tzu Hong Quan is what the Ming military did, their three main sets were Xiao (small) Hong Quan, Da (large) Hong Quan, and Tiger Claw.

Read my LONG southern KF history article on that site and you will see how this Tiger Claw entered into Fujian because of people who were stationed at a Ming Army Garrison before escaping to the south when the Qing dynasty started.

All you want to know and more is written there.

Ah...many thanks I will read in detail.

[Shaolin Master]

I will have more detail on Hongquan ...when I get around to filling that space on http://www.satirio.com/ma/home.html but with my recent country move it will be a few more months before I start updating it all again......anyways.

Shanxi Hongquan:

Earliest records are from the Song Dynasty, it was called Xijia Quan (West Family Boxing) and later in the Wei period was renamed as Hongquan. It was supposedly due to the whole Zhao Taizu Hongquan 32 Postures ..... (which in the manuscript contains a lot of grammar commesurate with the dialect of Shanxi)

In the olden days it was said (Dong Qiang Xi Gun) - [East Spear and West Staff], it was also said (Dong Cha, Zhi Chuo, Xi Hong) - [ East (Shandong) practices Cha (quan), Zhi (Hebei) practices Chuo (Jiao) and the West practices Hong (Quan) ]

In the Qing dynasty the style was practiced by many both in Shanxi but also in Hebei etc....There were 4 well known masters that were responsible for the great propagation of the art ....these were Sanyuan's Yaozi 'Swallow' Gaosan (Master Gao Zhankui), Lin Tong county's Heihu 'Black Tiger' Xingsan (Master Xing Fuke), Tong Guan's county's E Hu 'Hungry Tiger' Susan .....etc.....they spread the art all over China...and the art became known as different brances such as Gao Family, Zhao Family and Xi Family (as per past)....etc as a side note Emei Zhaomen (is also known as Sanyuan pai..because it came from Shanxi Hongquan). Anyways it is also thought that Shaolin Jueyuan (Baiyufeng) had studied some Shanxi arts and passed on versions of basic Hongquan to Shaolin.

However...the style through time absorbed the features of other schools of chinese martial arts and as a result Shanxi Hongquan is a compilation of many arts allbeit with the Hongquan at its core. Some of the styles to which it encompassed include: Hongquan, Paoquan, Jiuquan, Huaquan, Tongbei, Ditang etc....this all resulted in the one hundred or so forms that it has developed through time.

...anyways that is Shanxi Hongquan for now.....

Kind Regards,
Wu Chanlong

[Shaolin Master]

Again, later in my http://www.authenticshaolin.com site I will place information regarding Shandong Shaolin. This style is derive from the old Fuyu Shaolin and is the same style of Gu Ruzhang (i.e. Northern Shaolin) and others in Shandong and Jiangsu provinces (though movements and forms change with time the methodology all similar). This style was practiced by many of the Nanjing Guoshu Assoc. (as was Chaquan, Liuhequan etc)....and the resultant re-developed forms including the Taizuquan's etc had influence from that style (which Taiwan Li Maoching Yang Jwing Ming etc teach as Shaolin Longfist...etc)

The other Style known as Shandong Meihuaquan is yet different again and it influenced the Hao Family Praying Mantis ....sets such as Yuejiachui, xiaohuyan, heihuquan etc......

Kind Regards
Wu Chanlong

[Shaolin Master]

Ming Taizuquan is a little bit rare nowadays.....basically Ming Taizu (Zu Yuanzhang) was often referred to as Hong Wu (i.e. 洪 (brave) not 红 (red) ). Thus the style had small and large Hong quan ....and is also referred to as Taizuhongquan .....太祖洪拳.... The style is very simple in comparison the Taizumen (Song Taizu derived art)....with only a handful of sets and direct practical methods.

Anyways.....there are way too many 'Hong' styles in Chinese martial arts.....

Regards
Wu Chanlong

[Royal Dragon]

Question, is the Ming Tai Tzuu the same as the Southern Fuzian Tai Tzu Quan seen from masters like Liao Wu Chang and yourself?

Is Ming Tai Tzu related to southern mantis, or is it a Long Fist style like the Zhao, Kuang Yin stuff?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Ming Taizuquan is a little bit rare nowadays.....basically Ming Taizu (Zu Yuanzhang) was often referred to as Hong Wu (i.e. 洪 (brave) not 红 (red) ). Thus the style had small and large Hong quan ....and is also referred to as Taizuhongquan .....太祖洪拳.... The style is very simple in comparison the Taizumen (Song Taizu derived art)....with only a handful of sets and direct practical methods.

Anyways.....there are way too many 'Hong' styles in Chinese martial arts.....

Regards
Wu Chanlong

I really appreciate your historical information, thanks for all the great info on the various Hong Quan styles, I has helped clarify things for me.
THANKS!

[Sal Canzonieri]

Again, later in my http://www.authenticshaolin.com site I will place information regarding Shandong Shaolin. This style is derive from the old Fuyu Shaolin and is the same style of Gu Ruzhang (i.e. Northern Shaolin) and others in Shandong and Jiangsu provinces (though movements and forms change with time the methodology all similar). This style was practiced by many of the Nanjing Guoshu Assoc. (as was Chaquan, Liuhequan etc)....and the resultant re-developed forms including the Taizuquan's etc had influence from that style (which Taiwan Li Maoching Yang Jwing Ming etc teach as Shaolin Longfist...etc)

The other Style known as Shandong Meihuaquan is yet different again and it influenced the Hao Family Praying Mantis ....sets such as Yuejiachui, xiaohuyan, heihuquan etc......

Kind Regards
Wu Chanlong

Fu YU Shaolin? From Yuan Dynasty?
So that would be the Kan Jia Quan shaolin style, which indeed was the base for which the Northern Shaolin style (hate that name, so easy to get confused with just northern shaoin in general) was created from.

Why does your website say Fu Yu is from the song dynasty, when everything known about Fu Yu is from the Yuan dynasty (which was when Kan Jia Quan was developed)
and from Shi De Gen, Shi De Gian, and all the other lineages say that Fu JU, not Fu YU is from the Song dynasty.

Fu Yu and Fu JU are not the same people, I know I have harped on this too many times, but they aren't.

Fu Yu is well documented as being from the Yuan Dynasty.

Fu JU is the one that called the 18 masters in the Song dynasty.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Shaolin Master:

Did you learn the Rou Quan sets from the Liu family?

If so, I have some questions.