Luohan Quan

[bawang]

i dont see whats so special about that guy, other than the pose he did was really fancy. i dont think its good to be distracted by superficial things.

[Xian]

i dont see whats so special about that guy, other than the pose he did was really fancy. i dont think its good to be distracted by superficial things.

Relativly effortless arm and leg work for example ?


Kind regards,
Xian

[SHemmati]

A still remaining mystery in this thread is the Encyclopedia's small Luohan Quan at page 188 of vol.2 of the 4-volume set Encyclopedia. It is "Xiao/1Lu Luohan Quan" (Deyang's Xiao Luohan or Luohan Quan road 1 in Liu Zhenhai's VCDs). Just, after comparing the forms, the result is that the Encyclopedia's form misses a few postures, other postures are the same, just sometimes movements are performed to the opposite direction or with left/right exchanged (mirror imaged), which is usual among Shaolin practitioners. the body movements (shen fa) of this form is like Liu Zhenhai's form, which is not the old-fashioned Buddhistic (Luohan-like) shen fa of Luohan Quan.



Here I compare Encyclopedia's postures with Xiao Luohan Quan:


posture: equivalent figure in the Encyclopedia

1. Salute, praise Buddha
2. stand, cross palms down: fig.2
3. crouch, spread arms: fig.3
4. bow, double fists: fig.4
5. rest, palm cuts down: fig.5
6. bow, jab palm: fig.6
7. on horse, push hands down: fig.7
8. on bench, hold arms: Encyclopedia misses (luohan opens the book), but the transition movements are in figs.8-9
9. bow, spread fists: fig.10
10. bow, thrust fist: fig.11, but Encyclopedia misses the transitional cover and punches
11. transitory (xuebu), fists near ear and knee: fig.12
12. lift leg, double fists: fig.13
13. bow, push palm: Encyclopedia misses it and its transitional kick
14. bow, push double palms: Encyclopedia misses (play the Guitar)
15. on bench, double punches: Encyclopedia misses (luohan rings the bell)
16. rest, palm cuts down: fig.14
17. rest, cross fists down: fig.16, but Encyclopedia misses the transition movements (drunken luohan steps) but has only one transitional step in fig.15
18. bow, thrust fist: Encyclopedia misses
19. rest, cloud palm: Encyclopedia misses (luohan viewing)
20. rest, palm jabs down: Encyclopedia misses (backward interpolating palms) it and its transitional movements
21. sit, luohan sleeps (contemplates): figs.17-18
22. on horse, jab palms: fig.19
23. sit, praise Buddha: figs.20-21
24. crouch, palm cuts: fig.22, but Encyclopedia misses the repetition, while has the transition movement in fig.23
25. on bench, fists near ear and knee: figs.24-25
26. bow, double fists: fig.26
27. sit on mountain: figs.27-28

[SHemmati]

there was also a discussion by LFJ and Sal on Xiao/DiTang Mei Hua Quan, the versions that seem basically to be the same, but also seem to diverge at some points.

Shaolin has 2 Mei Hua Quans: Xiao and Da, where the Xiao Mei Hua Quan is also called DiTang Mei Hua Quan.

nonetheless, like I did for the Encyclopedia's Xiao/1Lu Luohan and the videos, it can be justified posture-by-posture that there's no divergence at all between these DiTang/Xiao Mei Hua Quans, they are all the same (of course being in different lineages, they have some Shen Fa (body movement) differences, but the differences are mainly in the Shen Fa and different forcing methods. the maneuver sequences are the same, and there are no major technical differences between them.)

i also see you've mixed up between the old luohan quan and the rather newer 18 luohan quan systems. this needs a correction.

[RenDaHai]

Hey Shemmati,

You are right, the Luohan on P.188 is the same one. I think we agreed on this before though...

But good comparison. Its just a slightly shorter version of the set.

There are 2 famous Luohan quans that appear everywhere. But after that every sect tends to disagree on Luohan QUan and it is a common name and there are very many different versions.

I Can't really see commonality between ChaShou Luohan (Lao Luohan/Xiao Luohan) and Da Luohan and I think they may be from different eras and ChaShou is certainly a more interesting set technically. ( Called Cha shou because of the crossed hands typical in this set. My version contains 9 crossed hands postures and you will find most versions contain a few).

As un update to the Luohan thread;

I still can't find the guy in green..... or who he is..... or which sect this Luohan belongs too. I am somewhat less interested in this style now, but I still feel the need to find who this guy is.

[SHemmati]

some mistake about shaolin luohan quan occurs almost everywhere. there are at least 2 different, yet related, luohan quan systems in shaolin:

1. the original old (lao) luohan quan, which has just 2 forms, the small luohan and the big luohan. it is said in the legends that this luohan quan system has been directly inspired from the luohan statues at Shaolin temple; this system is recognized by its unique luohan-imitating Buddhist postures and moves. i suppose this is the luohan quan that abbot Miaoxing learned from abbot Henglin and taught it extensively to monks and his lay disciples.

2. the 18 luohan quan(s), which are originally based on the old small and big luohan quans combined with other forms and extended up to 18 forms, one form for each of the 18 luohan characters, like the angry luohan, the deceitful luohan, barefoot luohan, long-eyebrow luohan, drunken luohan, etc. in contrast, these forms don't have the luohan Buddhist look of the old luohan. monk Degen taught (some different forms of) these luohan quan(s) to his disciples Liu Zhenhai, monk Yongwen, and Zhu Tianxi.

there are also several luohan combat sets of 108 or more combat methods. one should not mix up these luohan quans with one another.

[SHemmati]

based on the previous post, i've tried to distinguish the luohan quan forms:

small luohan quan, it has about 27 postures/36 moves in its original form, it's the same form that monk Deyang does, the first form of the encyclopedia. there are many videos for it.

big luohan quan, it's originally called jin tong xiao luohan (golden-child small luohan), it has about 36 postures in its original form, Liu Zhenhai has a video of it and this is a video clip of it (see all 3 parts of the video). as mentioned, a last part has been added to extend it, as you see in monk Dejun's and Deci's big luohan quan. this last part is not part of the old luohan quan, has no luohan posture or move, it's irrelevant.


another version of these small and big luohan quans are also practiced under the same names in Dengfeng area around shaolin. the difference is that these Dengfeng versions, as we already saw in the encyclopedia's small luohan quan, miss some core luohan postures and moves of the old luohan quan and have some sequences of moves added or removed. monk Degen used these forms as you see in Liu Zhenhai's 1st luohan quan, which is the Dengfeng version of small luohan quan, and in Zhu Tianxi's (Zhang Shijie's) 1st luohan quan, which is the Dengfeng version of big luohan quan. you'll find other videos of these versions by searching small and big luohan quan names.