TUF Season 4 question

[Knifefighter]

I don’t think anyone is saying there are rules specifically developed to exclude Kung Fu. However, there are rules in place so that UFC combat isn’t "all out" street fighting.

And nobody is saying that the UFC is street fighting.

[unkokusai]

What ever youve experienced in the MA, I've already been their done that..

............................

[cjurakpt]

May I ask how much of what CTS taught would fit in "filler" and "conventions" categories by either of your estimations? I hope my question is not taken as an attempt to further any arguments or intended in a disrespectful manner. I ask simply out of interest in the evolution of the TCMA to what it is today. As cjurakpt pointed out, much of the trappings of TCMA developed in a cultural setting that is no longer extant today. As far as I understand, CTS is one of the last successes produced from such a system and as such, it would be interesting to see what he passed on to you and what of his ideas and teachings have not withstood the winds of time.

it's a great question, and not at all taken as an insult (see, it IS possible to inquire critically about something without being a toad about it) - i actually spent all day thinking about the answer, because, a bit to my surprise, I hadn't actually articulated it all that clearly to myself, what I definatively mean by "filler" - it was just a gut response to my personal experience - in other words, I know what I meant, but hadn't actually thought it out fully;

so, here's what i think: as far as principles of fighting go, I think that TCMA has the right idea in many cases: things like jamming the opponet up, shutting down / controling the centerline, how to stick and follow in order to close the gap, different types of focrce generation in context of proper biomechanical principles: these are all things that I think TCMA has going for it; on the flip side, I think that the way a lot of the specific techniques are trainined is antithetical to those above ideas which, in general, are predicated on working against a "live" opponent; forms, and the sequences within the forms, lack the context specific parameters in terms of force generation, points of balance, timing, etc. because they are now all internally generated - it's like having a conversation with yourself, wherein you inevitably come out sounding like a genious to yourself; also, the content is questionable: for example, repetition of basic moves in so-called "advanced" forms - there really is no point to that - if you are trying to communicate / teach an "advanced" principle, then why not focus on the exclusively? why the need to put in the basic stuff that you've already worked to death? of course, if you didn't have repetition like that, TCMA forms would be a lot shorter and take much less time to learn...filler

ok, let the insults fly about how I am advocating not practicing basics any more once you are of an "advanced" level...

A second question; By Mr. Ross's accounts, CTS was quite the fighter. If I recall correctly, cjurakpt mentioned CTS' skill with the staff. Did either of you see him use more esoteric techniques in a consistent manner that would be considered "low precentage" moves by your standards? Or did he always stay with "bread and butter" techniques in sparring or a real fight?

well, it was mostly basics - not a lot of complicated stuff: staff specifically was all about cutting the angle, sticking, redirection and quickly closing the gap often after whacking someone in the fingers / hand with the staff - very "boring", straight-forward stuff - actually reminded me a lot of western foil fencing...empty hand was the same deal - very direct;

it's funny, because CTS's MO was to do with forms exactly what I talked about above - those sukers could go on forever, and a lot of it was the same old sequences separating a handful of "unique" moves; at the same time, his apps were very direct, and he didn't show a lot of flowery contrived stuff; unfortunately I never sat down and had a conversation with him about the purpose of forms in relation to fighting (lack of Chinese / maturity) - I really wonder what he'd have said about this discussion, I think it would have been interesting...Dave, any insights here?

[Knifefighter]

ask some of the younger posters here how I treat them, the answere is like my equals since they seem to be more mature than you.

I doubt you are their equal.

[Yao Sing]

"why the need to put in the basic stuff that you've already worked to death?"

I've alway heard you can't practice the basics too much and you're never to good to practice basics.

I think the reason the advanced sets have basics as "filler" is to force the advanced peeps to continuue practicing them and not get sidetracked by centering too much on the advanced stuff.

You know there will be students that will never go back to the basics without being forced to do so.

[SifuAbel]

A lot of people here could use a basic lesson in logic

Mary is a school teacher, Mary is a woman, Mary is from Michigan, All school teachers must have a degree, which of the following must be true?

1. All school teachers are women
2. All school teachers are from Michigan
3. Mary must have a degree

Now, here's a slightly harder one.... SIfu Abel can fight, he has trained forms, he has done sparring and focus mitts, which of the following must be true?

1. Forms are responsible for his fighting
2. Sparring and focus mitts are responsible for his fighting, while forms have no relationship to his fighting

Discuss

3. All of the above

This is not logic, this is spin. A contrived device at best.

Without the form work I would be a sloppy, simplistic, one dimension robot like so many of the fighters out there today.

[cjurakpt]

"why the need to put in the basic stuff that you've already worked to death?"

I've alway heard you can't practice the basics too much and you're never to good to practice basics.

I think the reason the advanced sets have basics as "filler" is to force the advanced peeps to continuue practicing them and not get sidetracked by centering too much on the advanced stuff.

You know there will be students that will never go back to the basics without being forced to do so.

ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner!!!

try to follow the logic: if you are going to teachan "advanced" principle, then teach it - don't pad it out with repetition of stuff that the person already has profciency in; I mean, the whole idea of "forcing" someone to practice basics is silly - if you are motivated to succeed as a fighter / MA-ist, you are going to practice basics a lot, all the time - which is why when working on something advanced, there is no point in adding in basic stuff, beacause you are practicing that anyway and it just takes focus away from what you are trying to now learn; as for forcing, let's be honest - how exactly can you force someone to do anything? maybe back in ol' China you could, but these days, if you no like, you leave and find somewhere else to train

so, let me state unequivocally that basics are good, important and need to be contantly drilled in order to deepen one's level of understanding overall; but like anything, they have their place, and used to fill in gaps btw advanced techs is not one of them;

[SifuAbel]

As for the forms being full of the same basic filler, that just you guys.
Sorry, but thats not my experience and thats probably why we have such different views of them. Thats one thing about our Sung Pai ,the advanced shaolin sets, and the our monkey sets, very diverse. The level of difficulty and content only go up. If your form is indeed just repetitions of the same stuff then by all means do then until you've had enough.

[SifuAbel]

not recently; your point?

My point is that i want to see what your fighting is like. It doesn't have to be recent. Anything will do.

[Knifefighter]

Without the form work I would be a sloppy, simplistic, one dimension robot like so many of the fighters out there today.

You should be the one posting clips, since you are claiming to be one of the few KF fighters who is for real. The clip you posted a while back definitely make you look like one sloppy fighter.

[SifuAbel]

Domo oregato, Mr. Roboto. If memory serves your only video bout had you showing really crappy token standup that lead to grappling.

[lkfmdc]

Answer a simple question, there are TONS of successful fighters who don't do forms at all

There are champion forms players who have been HUMILIATED in fighting... the #1 southern forms stylist in the entire US for YEARS got Ko'd in like a minute when he finally fought San Shou

IN fact, the number of people who do forms and can also fight is VERY SMALL, and they'd all be better fighters if they didn't waste time doing forms

[Knifefighter]

Forms do have one good purpose:

They keep pretend practitioners in their bubbles, giving them the self-esteem boost that comes with thinking they can fight for real... and there's hardly ever anything wrong with a good boost of self-esteem.

[SifuAbel]

IN fact, the number of people who do forms and can also fight is VERY SMALL, and they'd all be better fighters if they didn't waste time doing forms

Remember that includes me and YOU.

[SifuAbel]

Forms do have one good purpose:

They keep pretend practitioners in their bubbles, giving them the self-esteem boost that comes with thinking they can fight for real... and there's hardly ever anything wrong with a good boost of self-esteem.

IF thats all they do.

I'm not one to argue that there aren't any form faries out there that ONLY do forms.