Shaolin 18 postures...may be a modern form but it looks like a sister form to Luo Han Shi Ba Shou and Ba Bu Lian Huan Quan
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzg4OD....4.2-1.1-1-2-1
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Shaolin 18 postures...may be a modern form but it looks like a sister form to Luo Han Shi Ba Shou and Ba Bu Lian Huan Quan
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzg4OD....4.2-1.1-1-2-1
羅王宗
I think I recognise this form.... Its not practiced in DengFeng but it is shaolin, kind of. If its what I think it is then its not old its new, however it was designed to be useful sanshou techniques instead of to look cool.Originally Posted by taichi4eva
Either way it is not related to Babu or the other one. It looks similar because its construction is simple.
問「武」。曰：「克。」未達。曰：「勝己之私之謂克。」
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A couple comments;
- I learned that the traditional stick fighting method of Luohan was Yinyanggun, not Fengmogun... for what that's worth.
- Xiaosihui in Shi Zhenxu's lineage (Deyang, Deyong, etc.) is the "Kanjia" set of Nanyuan Tongbeiquan. It was only called Luohan Shiba Shou because it consisted of 18 postures, and to obscure its identity. It didn't used to be taught to students outside this small sect of Zhenxu's personal disciples, even when he was acting abbot and taught other material to the rest of the monks (he learned both Nanyuan and Xiyuan). Hence it's so rare nowadays. Never saw people do it until Deyang's video came out, but still not many know what it actually is. Maybe only 8 or so people have all of Zhenxu's system, which they call "Shaolin Zhenxu Quanxue" (combat science).
If you ask me, the version shown in the Encyclopedia is very disjointed and hard to follow, as if deliberately scrambled to further obscure what it is, along with making it seem as if it's part of an 8 or 9 road Luohan system, which clearly it is not. Not sure what exactly Sal was talking about when he suggested a Baguazhang connection to it and how it should be like the Encyclopedia version. That version makes no sense. I've never seen anyone do it like that, and everyone in Zhenxu's sect does it the same way.
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Hi taichi4eva-
As a student with training in the Hua Quan style (China Fist):
1st I can say that you are right the China 24 Shi people are talking about in this thread is from the Flower-style, not the China (Glorious) style.
As far as Hua Quan- this style (within the system) has 12 core forms which can be performed as killer solo forms or (most if not all) as a 2-person set. Beyond these 12 core forms are the longer roads, and also short and long weapons sets.
There is a Chinese TV documentary you may be able to see on Youtube about Hua Quan- it shows a black and white picture of Cai Longyun's father in a distinct posture from Babu (lian hua) chuan. If you train outside the Wah (hua) style I guess it makes sense to say where the form comes from, the school I train just referrs to the form as 'Babu Chuan'.
The 12 core forms of Hua Quan are developmental in nature- they start shorter such as sher bi shou and babu chuan, but get almost as lenghty as the roads at the other end of the spectrum- each form emphasizing different techniques and elements, etc.
If giving a performance for example, Babu chuan and sher bi (shou) chuan are good to perform together, one could train those like one long form, although different techniques and postures the energy of these 2 forms work well together. There are other forms in the 12 core set that are just like this as well, that go good together, such as the 1st set and the 4th set from the 12 core forms I learned (which are identical in energy, with the 4th set being a longer form with more high/low stances, etc.) (for a modern example, like different levels of a video game). Some of the 12 core forms are also Hua style's Springing Legs as well, with alot of kicking skill involved.
Anyway that is my 2cents. Have a good day!
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Thank you everyone for the great information!
MarathonTmatt- So when were Luo Han Shi Ba Shou and Ba Bu Lian Huan Quan constructed? Are they newer sets? Or are they as old as the other 12 core sets of Hua Quan? Any forms in Hua Quan similar to these two sets?
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At LFJ- the term Kanjia...does it point to something special? "watch over the household"
What were the differences in the Shaolin practiced in Xiyuan, Nanyuan, Beiyuan...etc.?
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Yes, it's actually sometimes translated as "special" because it's usually the most "outstanding" techniques within a style used to "guard the household". Dictionaries have all three of these translations. For this reason the Xiaosihui was itself closely guarded and not even regular students would learn it until much later. Compared to the rest of Nanyuan Tongbeiquan, although it's short and simple, its techniques are quite brutal. Nowadays I see people use it as a basic stance training set or something, fooled by its simplicity. But it's actually still very rare.
That's a complicated question since there are many subsystems to consider. There are styles unique to each, but where they do share things the body mechanics can be quite different. RenDaHai might be able to give a more detailed impression since he has training experience in both Xiyuan and Nanyuan, whereas I primarily just train Nanyuan. I get the impression that Xiyuan and Nanyuan had the martial traditions, as not much is known to have come from the others.What were the differences in the Shaolin practiced in Xiyuan, Nanyuan, Beiyuan...etc.?
As we mention it, there is a Xiyuan version of Xiaosihui, also called Xiantian Luohan Shiba Shou, as Shi Deyang calls it on his video. Xiantian means inborn; innate; natural, and I believe this is because while it's not actually part of a Luohanquan system, it's a Shaolin style (which can generically be called Luohanquan, Arhat Boxing) made of 18 postures, so the "Luohan Shiba Shou" is inborn, although this is to obscure its identity.
The Xiyuan version goes to the right instead of left with all mirrored movements, but its steps and movements are very compact, compared to the Nanyuan version. Personally, I train it going to the left, and then at the end, since it starts and ends with the same salute, I continue to do it on the mirrored side as a long balanced form.
The Xiyuan version is so different it's very difficult to tell it's the same stuff. You have to look closely. But it's changed so much it doesn't really match the Nanyuan Tongbeiquan that it's a part of, whereas the Nanyuan version is very close and obviously a part of the larger system. This is what I'm talking about below. Don't know when this version came about:
Last edited by LFJ; 11-05-2014 at 08:33 PM.
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This style was largely practised in Shandong province. Cai Longyun's father, Cai Guigin trained under his grandfather in the style, and later after his grandfather passed, from another Hua master in Shantung, Ding Yushan. If you think about it this implies that Hua Quan was practised by different masters throughout the Shantung Province at that time (18th/19th centuries.) There were probably different variations of the art as well at this time. In fact it was said that Cai Guigin combined his grandfather's teachings of Hua Quan with Master Ding Yushan's teachings to "make the art complete again" implying he must have learned different material from both master's.
How old is Shi Ba Shou and (Hua style) Babu Quan. It probably existed in some form or another since Cai Guigin's time. Maybe before (in some form). Maybe Cai Longyun did modernize these forms, maybe it came from Cai Guigin or Ding Yushan I am not sure. I am not sure either when the Shaolin Temple adopted these forms into their training curriculum. I do know that the International Chin Woo Association trains at least Shi Ba Shou, and that the association was founded around (1915'ish?) which was when Cai Guigin was travelling through China, and spreading boxing techniques with other master's. It would be interesting to find out when the Chin Woo Assoc. absorbed that material into their curriculum (possibly influenced by Cai Guigin directly?) Cai Guigin also taught his sister's son in the Hua style, with the surname of Chen. Master Chen had two sons, one who stayed in China (during cultural revolution) and one who made his way to Taiwan (I hope I got that right) and eventually to the USA, but moved back to China eventually.
Also Cai Longyun is one of China's top Wushu masters and is a living legend. He also has a son who I think teaches. My teacher would know better than me, I think he has collaborated with him before in the past (at least were "in touch" w/ each other.)
Also, alot of the northern longfist styles are related. Sometimes when I see Cha Quan or Hong Quan sets I think "that might as well be a different Hua Quan form." Like I said, the 1st set and the 4th set of the 12 core forms of the Hua style have a similar energy unto themselves also and are good to train together. The 1st form is just as "short" and crisp as Babu and Sher Ba with the 4th form being a little longer- they have different energies though. The 5th form I learned is the 1st "springing legs" form (emphasizing leg skill), etc. Again, the forms are developmental in nature and focus on different aspects of training for the student's development, that is why people usually say stuff like "long fist has a bit of everything" and things like that.
Okay, cheer-ri-os!
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Oh, also to answer your question a bit further- I would say that most of the Hua forms have a "4-part" kick drill. This consists of hand techniques (I will reserve myself and not go into the detail) combined with a springing snap kick. Babu is the only form I can think of that I learned that does not have this signature move. Another signature move is the "Rising Sun" salute/ brush upwards.
For instance in this video (uploaded by LFJ who is on this thread) -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0fYsmDGeIQ
the performer does the springing snap kick @ 0:15 but w/o the signature hand technique ("4-part") I learned.
Now, it is a nice night outside so I am going to go outside and train!
the ass assassin
ba bu lian huan is absolutely from hua quan system.
lian huan quan was renamed from lian hua quan, which means lotus flower boxing. this came from white lotus/boxer rebellion. after white lotus got suppressed again name was changed.
lian hua quan is very recent creation and its poems mainly focuses on fighting europeans.
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do you know about any relation, historical and/or technical, between ba bu lian huan and the lian hua(n) itself?
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